Seanad debates
Wednesday, 29 February 2012
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011 - Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at 3 p.m. and to conclude no later than 4.30 p.m., if not previously concluded. Private Members' Business is No. 17, motion No. 8, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude no later than 7 p.m.
Following the Order of Business, there will be Expressions of Sympathy on the death of former Fianna Fáil Senator, Michael Doherty.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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We welcome the Government's decision, following the advice of the Attorney General, to hold a referendum. My party will strongly support a "Yes" vote in the referendum and I do not want there to be any doubt about that. I have said it in this Chamber time and time again. This is a serious matter for the country. There are differences of opinion and there are provisions we would rather were in the treaty but which are not, such as addressing the ECB's role within the European Union. The progressive pro-European parties in the Oireachtas have an opportunity in the coming weeks to work closely together on this in the interests of the country.
I am worried that "No" posters were erected last night without a discussion having even started or the text of the referendum being published. This is not the way politics should work. The Taoiseach held a meeting with our party leader on this yesterday. My party had a meeting about this more than four weeks ago and we made a decision to support a "Yes" vote in a referendum, if it was called. We will examine the text and we will bring different elements to the debate. In the next few weeks, the Seanad can play an important role in providing information. We are ahead of the curve with regard to planning our own debate on the treaty. There will be dissenting voices but they have to be honest in the debate and stick to what the referendum is about and not the other issues about which all of us are concerned and have policy differences. That is what politics is about. There are issues on which my party will not agree with the Government and there are issues with which Sinn Féin will not agree, and that happened the last time.
We must consider the common good. The treaty does not go far enough but it is a step forward and, over the next few weeks, we have an opportunity to discuss further with our European partners how we can progress the role of the ECB and improve the democratic deficit that exists. Will the Leader keep an eye on the publication of the text of the constitutional amendment? The Government will get full support from this side of the House when it is introduced-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator O'Brien, without interruption.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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I would not dream of it.
I propose that when the text is ready we should have an early debate on it. The Leader will get the support of the Fianna Fáil Members to alter the business of the House at that time to ensure we deal with this speedily. I believe we will also have a role in the coming weeks as it should not be just one debate.
Finally, I previously raised the matter of ComReg proposing to fine An Post €11.9 million for apparently not meeting service level agreements on next day delivery. It is absolute insanity that a State regulator will fine a State company almost €12 million. The Leader gave a commitment that he would bring this to the attention of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Has he received an update on it? I believe the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, has also raised concerns about it.
I would welcome a very early debate on the European referendum. There is no doubt whatsoever that my party will be actively campaigning for a "Yes" vote in that referendum.
John Whelan (Labour)
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Given that it is 29 February I wish to make a few proposals to the Leader. He will be reassured and comforted to know that none of them contains an offer of marriage.
Like Senator O'Brien, I welcome the EU referendum. It will clear the air on this issue once and for all. I and the Labour Party will vigorously support a "Yes" vote. To think that one can be half in and half out of the euro is akin to the concept of being sort of pregnant. It is just not possible. This is not about the Nice or Lisbon treaties, but about Ireland, our communities and our children, many of whom have been forced to emigrate. People might not like to hear this but I firmly believe that if Jack Lynch had not brought us into the then EEC in 1973, this country would still be a backwater.
John Whelan (Labour)
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No road in this country has been built without EU money. It is about time we woke up and accepted that reality.
John Whelan (Labour)
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In addition, there would be no PayPal or Intel in this country, because Ireland is the bridgehead for Europe for many of these American multinationals. People are sadly mistaken if they think they can have it both ways, with the bread buttered on both sides. I am already aware that Sinn Féin opposes this referendum. It is against everything.
David Norris (Independent)
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Europe is getting money out of us, hand over fist.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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It has all its printing done already.
John Whelan (Labour)
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The "No" posters are apparently already up. It had to use the rest of the ink. I suppose it had to be put to some use. I am glad to hear Senator O'Brien state that Fianna Fáil is united in favour of this referendum. To be fair, there was some equivocation and doubt about that because the party's deputy leader had created some anxiety in that regard.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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There is no doubt that we will be supporting the referendum.
John Whelan (Labour)
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I am glad Fianna Fáil will campaign vigorously for the referendum.
I am also a staunch supporter of the household charge. Again, one cannot have it both ways. One cannot have strong local government, strong local authorities and strong local services and, on the other hand, say one opposes the household charge. Those who oppose that charge are reckless and irresponsible.
John Whelan (Labour)
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One of the key issues in Laois-Offaly during the general election campaign was the local fire brigade service, and properly so. People were concerned about the closure of small rural fire stations. The fact is, however, that the household charge will go towards the upkeep of such services. I appeal to those who are opposing the household charge for selfish ends to think again. It is ridiculous, and it is putting local government at risk.
The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is an eminently sensible and pragmatic man. The household charge is not being embraced due to misinformation and confusion. The leaflets are a fiasco. We must involve people and make the method of payment easier for people who want to pay. It must be more user friendly and accessible. I ask the Leader to call on the Minister to involve An Post in this process. There are 1,100 post offices throughout the country and they are well placed, and I understand well disposed, to facilitating people who wish to pay this charge but do not have the opportunity to do so.
David Norris (Independent)
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With regard to the campaign for the new fiscal treaty, I believe this treaty will impose considerable austerity for generations to come. We will undoubtedly be in a vice. This is tying us in; it is bullying from Germany. That country is at it again. The entire system is rotten and should be pulled down. This Government is collaborating. It has appointed Goldman Sachs as advisers for floating some of the European bonds. This is an organisation that was criminally complicit in cooking the books for Greece. That is the mess we are in.
Taxes have caused every revolution. Unfair taxes caused the French and American revolutions. Believe me, they will cause a revolution in Europe, or they should. Once again, the people are not being considered. It is a system. It is exactly what happened with the Famine. Centralised authorities have imposed unjust economic theories and worked them out in practice on the living flesh of the people of Europe. In the case of the Famine, it was the people of this country. I am 100% against it. At last, thank God, one little country is being allowed to have a referendum. Look at what happened to Greece when it sought a referendum. Its Government was kicked out by centralised Europe. Thank God for Ireland. It can speak for the people of the rest of Europe and demand democracy back from our masters in Berlin, who are at it again. They are bullying.
As I pointed out yesterday in the foreign affairs committee to their Minister for propaganda, they are also rearming. This time, however, they are not arming themselves but Israel, with a new submarine being built in Kiel.
David Norris (Independent)
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I appeal to the House to balance this.
John Whelan (Labour)
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The Senator should be ashamed of himself.
David Norris (Independent)
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We have an international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights. This will protect the homeless, the people who are now wandering the streets looking for somewhere to live. What about them in all this economic theory? We signed this international covenant but we have not signed the protocol that was agreed in 2008, so there is no method of enforcement. If we are serious about the welfare of our citizens, I ask the Leader to plead with the Government to sign this protocol.
Tom Shehan (Fine Gael)
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I will be more subdued than other Members this morning. The issue I wish to raise is the fuel costs with which businesses and families are being hit. People have referred to the household charge, septic tank charge and other charges. However, the charge that is affecting the daily lives of families and businesses throughout this country is the cost of fuel. An inordinate percentage of the cost of fuel is due to Government taxes. Every time the price of fuel is increased the price of milk and the price of a sliced pan also increase, due to the knock-on increased ancillary costs of production as a result of higher fuel costs. There are also the costs for families for home heating oil and for travelling to work. Families are being hit every day and they have no way out. Will the Leader arrange a debate on the cost of fuel and the inordinate percentage of Government taxes on fuel in this country?
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome this referendum, although it might be for a different reason from the reasons others might have. I welcome it because, if passed, it will enshrine a debt brake in our Constitution for this and future Governments. For too long we have seen expenditure of public moneys, and indeed promised expenditure by both Government and Opposition parties, with the sole purpose in many instances of gaining political advantage rather than for the genuine benefit of this country. Once we enshrine in the Constitution that borrowing must be kept to very strict and disciplined limits, it will be good for this country.
We now have a flavour of how this debate might progress. Anybody who claims that Ireland can speak for the rest of Europe is living in cloud cuckoo land. We should conduct this debate, regardless of whether one is for or against the referendum proposal, on the basis of what is in the best interests of the Irish people, many of whom are currently in great difficulty and suffering socially, psychologically and financially. That is our duty. We should not use this referendum purely for what we perceive to be political gain. I would be asking everyone to be responsible in this debate. I would like to think that the Government will make every effort prior to the referendum to ensure that there is some amelioration of the sovereign debt levels, particularly the promissory notes, and also the interest rate levels. That should be done to ensure that we get a positive result in this country. People must see that the path we are taking will lead to some sort of resolution of their difficulties and that it will not be a continuous round of austerity for at least a decade. There is an onus on all of us, working together in the interests of this country, to ensure that what is put to the people is done in an attractive way.
We should be wary of persons from outside of this country who have a great deal of money to spend influencing policy making in this country. There is a children's group which was told that €1.5 million from external sources would be ploughed into a referendum here. I do not want to see our referendum contaminated by anybody with his or her own personal external agenda. This should be done on the basis of us debating it openly and honestly in the interests of the people and, hopefully, persuading that the correct decision will be made, particularly in the interests of the younger generation to whom we have a real responsibility.
John Gilroy (Labour)
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I welcome the referendum as a moment which is good for Irish democracy. This really is an iconic moment in our times which will define our future with Europe. We need to be careful about how we debate and the language we use around this referendum. Undoubtedly, in the period running up to the referendum there will be uncertainty in the markets, and internationally, about the state of Ireland and any hyperbole or misinformation put out, in this House or in the other Chamber, will feed into that and cause greater uncertainty. I appeal to people to make their arguments for or against this treaty - I will be robustly making the argument in favour of it - but let us keep the debate factual and honest. Senator Darragh O'Brien referred to the "No" group already putting up their posters. Last night on public radio prominent Sinn Féin spokespersons stated that there are no implications in the European stability mechanism for a "No" vote, which is factually wrong. I will not make the argument here for or against the treaty - I will do that when we have a debate here - but I appeal for proper, factual and responsible comment.
On a lighter note, I took a look through some of the international comment in this morning's media. I note a prominent photograph of our colleague, Senator Byrne, in the Financial Times which surely will go a long way towards steadying the nerves of even the flakiest investor.
John Gilroy (Labour)
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Absolutely. I commend Senator Darragh O'Brien's responsible and reasonable position on this and let us keep the debate honest, factual and reasonable.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I find myself having to offer some support for Sinn Féin here this morning. We ought to reject any suggestion that the party would endanger Ireland's commercial interests by opposing the referendum on the fiscal compact. Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Adams have already shown that their commitment to Ireland Inc. is sure and that they are acting in our best interests.
I would defend the putting up of posters at this stage by Sinn Féin or any other group. I must disagree with my friend, Senator Darragh O'Brien, on this. There can be nothing wrong with people getting their arguments in early.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I welcome the Taoiseach's decision to hold a referendum on this issue. This is one area where we know what is at stake and what is involved, and it is entirely legitimate for people to put up posters advocating a "Yes" or "No" vote at this stage.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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We must certainly comply with legalities but in terms of advocating a "Yes" or "No" vote, the people know what the issues are. This is about strengthening, and tying us into, commitments that we have already made. We will face stringent rules in the future around deficits and debt. The decision that the Irish people must make is whether this is in our best interests, whether, by being seen to tie ourselves into this agreement - one must remember our say so is not required for this treaty to go ahead - we will act to reassure markets in the future that we are a safe bet when it comes to lending, and whether it will strengthen our voice when we seek concessions on issues such as the promissory notes. Senator Walsh is correct. It is Ireland's best interests that must drive this debate, not persons on either side trying to gain political leverage for themselves on other issues, certainly not a protest of the Government nor, indeed, a tribal vote in support of the Government. Ireland's best interests must be the test as persons decide how they will vote on this issue.
Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Like most of the other Senators who have spoken, I welcome the referendum. The debate should be on the referendum, not what we would like to see discussed about Europe. Education, as Senators Darragh O'Brien and Walsh called for, in telling the people exactly what is in the treaty, is most important. There was a survey published today where a professor asked those surveyed what interest rate they were paying on their mortgage, what interest rate they were paying on their credit card and what was the rate of inflation, and I noted the percentage of people who needed education about that. Putting something into the Constitution is a serious issue and we, as elected representatives, must ensure that we give it proper debate rather than score political points and give the facts rather than what we would like to debate, for which, hopefully, we will have another day.
In Europe, today is rare disease day to give a voice to the voiceless. According to the organisation GRDO, there are 250,000 people who suffer from different types of rare disease. It is difficult for them to get access to proper care and there is no access to a clear pathway for medical attention. A survey by the organisation GRDO demonstrated that one in seven have waited more than ten years for a diagnosis of their condition and 37% got a wrong diagnosis. We must do something about that. According to that survey, 60% stated that they got their information from the Internet. All the organisation is looking for is, not a main national body or organisation, but a sub-office in the Department of Health where anybody suffering with a rare disease can have a clear pathway to acknowledge that he or she will be looked at early in their disease because preventive medicine saves the country money. I ask the Minister for Health to look at establishing an office - or a person at whom the buck stops - which the organisation or the persons affected can ring up to ask the avenue they should go down. It would reduce the time spent shunting patients between one doctor and the other and, most important, would lead to a better outcome for those suffering from the disease. When one considers our population, 250,000 people is no small number.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Fáiltímid roimh an chinneadh a thóg an tArd-Aighne agus tréaslaímid léi as an seasamh neamhspleách a thóg sí agus as an chomhairle a chuir sí ar an Rialtas maidir leis an reifreann. We welcome the forthcoming referendum on the EU treaty and we welcome the full and frank debate that there will be around it.
I also welcome Senator Darragh O'Brien's indication as to where the Fianna Fáil Party stands on that because it certainly appears to be in contradiction with what Deputy Ó Cuív stated on Raidió na Gaeltachta not an hour ago. It is good to have clarity on that so we know where we are coming from.
Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ó Cuív will always be clear.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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This is a treaty about enshrining austerity for generations to come. It is important to discuss the implications of that.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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It is a view in the debate and I am sure Senator Healy Eames will welcome the debate around that.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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It is a debate about our sovereignty. It certainly imposes more stringent mechanisms to control our fiscal policy and it takes the decision making out of our hands. This is about making good decisions for the good of all the people. Let us have the debate. Let us get the wording as soon as possible so that we can see what the issues are.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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My party certainly will not be flying off the handle. We will put forward, as we do, factual, logical and rational arguments.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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We certainly were factual last night.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Clochartaigh, without interruption.
11:00 am
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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For the information of my esteemed colleague, Senator Whelan, my party is not against everything.
He seems to jump to grand generalisations about Sinn Féin policy. We are in favour of a wealth tax, the capping of salaries of senior civil servants, a debt writedown and renegotiating around our fishing and natural resources. There are many things Sinn Féin is in favour of, Senator Whelan-----
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Some of those have an impact, when one looks at the impact of this treaty.
Más féidir liom focal gairid a rá, beidh Seachtaine na Gaeilge ag teacht chun cinn an tseachtain seo chugainn. Glacaim leis nach féidir linn lá iomlán Gaeilge a bheith againn sa Teach anseo ar an 7 Márta ach beidh Gaeilge á húsáid sa Dáil agus ar fud na dTithe. Iarraim ar dhaoine más féidir leo níos mó Gaeilge a úsáid ar an 7 Márta le linn díospóireachtaí agus má tá cúnamh ag teastáil ó aon duine, beimid breá sásta sin a thabhairt.
Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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Tá brón orm ach níl an Ghaeilge agam chomh agus atá sí ag an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh so I will speak in English. On the referendum, I must be one of the few people who is disappointed we are having a referendum on the fiscal stability pact for the reason that I do not believe the Constitution is the right place to be enshrining these types of measures. The Constitution is primarily there to protect rights and liberties and I would much prefer we were having a constitutional referendum on the rights to the child rather than fiscal stability. I do not believe it is appropriate. In the 1970s we were talking about John Maynard Keynes, in the 1980s it was Milton Friedman. Times change, as do economic circumstances. I do not believe these types of measures should be enshrined in a Constitution. However, the Attorney General has seen otherwise and of course I will be supporting it as I consider these measures are important for the future of the Irish economy.
On a note of caution, I am not happy to hear anti-German sentiment both in this House and outside of it. It is inappropriate. It is not the fault of the German people or some plot on their part that we, Europe, are in the financial position we are in. I do not believe it is helpful to the debate on this issue for the Irish people to be personalising it around the German people.
I ask the Leader to bring in the Minister of State with responsibility for housing and perhaps the Minister for Finance to have an emergency debate on the housing market and the construction sector. Senators may have seen the CSO statistics published yesterday showing that house prices fell last year by almost 20% and in January of this year we had one of the sharpest falls ever in house prices. This is a very important issue. For every fall in house prices, Irish people are in greater negative equity and the balance sheet of our banks is in even worse condition than it was before. There is obviously a reason for the continuing fall in prices. There is a lack of confidence in the market but there is also a lack of finance. We are back to mortgage lending in the way we had it in the 1970s.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Those are points that can be made during the debate.
Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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We also have a construction sector that has fallen to 4% of our GDP when closer to 20% was appropriate.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Those are points that can be made during the debate.
Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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Thank you. This is a very important matter. We need to consider emergency measures to support the construction sector and to put some type of floor under the continuing fall of the housing market.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business to ask the Minister for Health to come to the House to explain the situation with regard to the national cancer control programme and its relationship to pre-election promises and commentary which has followed since then. On 9 February, the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, visited the north west of the country and spoke of the issue concerning cancer services in that area, in particular the commitments made by the now Minister of State, Deputy Perry, the now Senator Susan O'Keeffe, the now Deputy Tony McLoughlin, the Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, the Minister, Deputy Quinn, and the Taoiseach himself to assure, first, that cancer services would be returned, second, that they would be returned within 100 days, third, that the Labour Party would ensure a ninth centre of excellence would be located at that location and, fourth, to assure everybody in a live debate which is still available on the Internet that each of those individuals - Perry, McLoughlin and O'Keeffe - would resign their membership of the Oireachtas if that was not carried through.
To follow on and give some context, on 9 February the Minister, Deputy Reilly, when talking about these issues in Sligo, assured the people of the north west, some 200,000 people, that the door was not closed on this issue. At that specific moment in time, Dr. Susan O'Reilly, the head of the national cancer control programme was giving an interview to irishhealth.com stating: "It's definitely not going to happen". To use, neglect and mislead a section of the people of Ireland, some 250,000 people-----
John Gilroy (Labour)
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On a point of order, when he says "mislead the people", I wonder has Senator MacSharry forgotten it was his Government that removed these services in the first place.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not a point of order. Senator MacSharry, without interruption.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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If the new Senator cares to check the record of the House, he will see that the only person whose position on this issue has not changed is myself.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
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To use, neglect and mislead the people of Ireland, or a section of the population, in this way is inexcusable. While the Leader sometimes likes us to raise such issues on the Adjournment, to use and neglect 200,000 lives in this cynical way, just to get votes, is inexcusable and it demands that the Minister would come to the House to clarify why, on the north west station Ocean FM, on the same day the head of the national cancer control programme said it is definitely not going to happen, he was lying to people and telling them the door was not closed.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Today is a day to think we are lucky people. The Constitution yet again has given the Irish people the opportunity to have their say on Ireland and its place in Europe, and to give leadership on this issue. I believe we should vote "Yes" - vote "Yes" for Ireland, for our future and for Europe, because what we decide will have an impact on the whole of Europe. We should also use this moment to advance our negotiations on the promissory notes, the bank debt and the terms of the bailout. This referendum is giving us these opportunities. It is a very good day for Ireland.
This is also a very important day in the lives of almost 8,000 public servants who are retiring today. Some 1,600 of those are teachers. I ask the Leader for a debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, on the contribution some of those public servants may make in volunteering overseas. I was struck by a presentation from Voluntary Services Overseas, VSO, which told us of the impact that 1,363 teacher trainers from many countries had in Ethiopia last year. The teachers trained will go on to educate some 800,000 children. While it is a day on which our public servants will reflect on their futures, many of them are young and will continue to contribute in this country while some may consider an opportunity to contribute abroad in the developing world.
This day only comes once every four years. It is an important day in many people's lives, including the life of this country. Let us go forward for ourselves, for Europe and the world.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator MacSharry on a very important issue on which he has been absolutely consistent right through the term of the last Government and this Government. The Senator's credentials in this regard are impeccable.
I compliment the Attorney General, Ms Máire Whelan SC, on her report to the Government, which restores faith in the Attorney General as a very independent person. Anyone who would have questioned that in the past will now know her position has been vindicated.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I know it is a political appointment but, in this case, the Taoiseach said that "on balance" he would decide on a referendum. In this regard, I compliment the Leader of the Opposition on his views and the views expressed by the Minister of State, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, who said it was not the motivation of the negotiators to ensure that no referendum took place. Those matters have been clarified through the Leader.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should question some of his own party members.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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There is also the question of the German Minister who suggested we set out to avoid a referendum. That being said, I wish the Government every success in its first referendum. It will quickly discover how tough it is to run a referendum campaign. My party had to face the challenge on its own many times.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Labour Party was not in favour of every referendum fought, as the record shows.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on this issue?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Members opposite will recall that a Deputy left the Fine Gael Party last year over the closure of accident and emergency services at Roscommon County Hospital, as did two of the party's councillors. I am appealing to the Taoiseach to ensure this matter is resolved before the referendum takes place. The accident and emergency unit at Roscommon County Hospital should be reopened, in accordance with the undertaking given-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What does it have to do with the referendum?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I will tell the Cathaoirleach why it is relevant.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to have a debate on Roscommon County Hospital, given the original undertaking given by the Taoiseach that he would not allow the accident and emergency unit to close. I am trying to help the Government in this regard, as it will require every vote it can get in the upcoming referendum.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is way over time. I call Jimmy Senator Harte.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I predict that the people of Roscommon will be reluctant to support the proposal unless the accident and emergency unit is reopened.
John Gilroy (Labour)
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Perhaps the Senator might leave his telephone number with the Leader in order that he can pass it on to Chancellor Merkel.
Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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As I said last week, Fianna Fáil Members are a little like a horse without its jockey in the Grand National - they are still running to the finish line, but no one is taking any notice.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I hope I would beat the Senator in a race.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I was in the Dáil with the Senator's father who was a decent man.
Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I will pass on the Senator's kind remarks.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should confine his remarks to matters relevant to the Order of Business.
Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I endorse Senator John Whelan's comments on the household charge. There is a group encouraging people from the North, Britain, Germany, France, the United States and elsewhere to break the law in this country. I have never heard anyone in another country advising people from other jurisdictions to break the law in that country. It is probably symptomatic of the anti-everything campaign. I see it in Donegal all the time, where even a priest whom I will not name has urged parishioners, from the pulpit, not to pay the household charge. It is despicable that a member of the church would advise people who go to mass to receive religious guidance not to pay their taxes. The country should have a good look at itself.
In regard to the referendum on the European fiscal compact proposal, there is already misinformation by the No campaign. Members of that group should note that anybody who puts up posters in advance of the official commencement of the campaign will be guilty of breaking the law. We were all very conscious during the last general election that leaving a poster up seven days after it would leave us liable to a fine of €200. However, no action is being taken by local government to deal with this postering which was happening even before yesterday in respect of the household charge and so on.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I support Senator John Whelan's proposal that the Minister be invited to the House to explain why An Post has not been nominated to collect the household charge and whether the situation can be rectified. Householders have only four weeks left in which to pay the charge and An Post could assist in processing payments.
On the issue of austerity-----
Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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The reality is that Sinn Féin is the austerity party in Northern Ireland. It is leading a march on the other side of the Border.
Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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Its new anthem should be "starvation once again".
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Despite what has been said on the other side of the House, Senator Terry Leyden has raised a fundamental issue in regard to the forthcoming referendum. As somebody who was actively involved in previous referendums, I advise the Government to tread very carefully in how it presents this issue to the people. The first referendum on the Nice treaty which was essentially a housekeeping exercise was lost because people believed their sons and daughters would be carried off to serve in a European army. That issue has since disappeared from the agenda of those who voted against the interests of the country on that occasion. That referendum was rejected because of campaigning by sectional interests opposed to Government policy, including nurses, taxi drivers and various others. I could read out a litany of such interests.
If anyone assumes this referendum will be embraced by the people without detailed debate and a quid pro quo for the State, he or she is gravely mistaken. It may sound like pork barrel politics, but there is a unique opportunity for the Government to tell the European Union that our bank debt is unsustainable in the medium to long term and that the country - I have said this repeatedly in the House - cannot continue to operate under the burden of that debt. Those who have been quick to criticise Fianna Fáil Administrations of the past must have been interested to hear a senior German MEP and former chairman of the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament, Elmar Brok, point out on "Prime Time" last night that the reason the European Union, including Ireland, was in its current state was the bank collapse of 2007 and 2008. Whatever mistakes Fianna Fáil might have made in government, the fundamental reason for our current difficulties is the activities of greedy banks, particularly the German banks. It is important to note that they are separate from the German people. I agree with Senator Aideen Hayden that we should not be seen to be expressing anti-German sentiments. The activities of German banks which flooded this and other countries with cheap and easy money, together with a poor regulatory regime, are the main reasons we find ourselves in our current position.
One can argue about the politics of the issue until the cows come home. What it comes down to is that the Government must let its European counterparts know that if the referendum is to be carried, the people must be given some hope they will get out from under the unsustainable and unacceptable bank debt. We could then operate within a fiscal treaty that would oblige us to adhere to the 3% deficit requirement. We should bear in mind in that regard that this was one of the few countries which ran a budget surplus up to the time of the collapse of the banking system which occurred as a consequence of the activities in the sub-prime market and of the toxic American banks. The sooner that narrative is engaged with, rather than merely firing shots about what Fianna Fáil did in government, the sooner we can move forward, as all of us wish to do, to remove this burden from the people and re-enter an era of prosperity.
Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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It is important that we have a constructive debate on this matter. During the referendum on the Lisbon treaty a leaflet was distributed to every household on the north side of Cork city claiming that a "Yes" vote would lead to legalised abortion and prostitution, the imposition of conscription and a European insistence on no more than one child per family. The media have an important role to play in the upcoming referendum. They must take on such claims and ensure the correct information is made available.
It is constructive to consider the positives. While we had 1.2 million people working in this country in 1990, that number had increased to 2.1 million by 2008. For the first time we made a serious impact in facilitating people to provide jobs. We must return to that position. The European Union has an important role to play in ensuring we can continue to create jobs.
Senator Norris described the current debt position as "diabolical". However, it is not just about the payment of bank debts; it is also about getting our finances under control. A single figure illustrates the enormity of the problem. Last year we paid out €13.4 billion for the provision of health care services, including elderly care services, medical cards, hospital care services and so on, and brought in €13.317 billion in income tax. In other words, every cent we received in income tax went on the provision of health care. We have been able to maintain public services only because we have been able to access finance. It is about being part of the European market and ensuring we can increase exports and thus create jobs. The media have a vital role to play in the debate and must play that role constructively. On previous occasions information, which was untrue, was put into the public domain.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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The House will be interested to know that yesterday the Cabinet approved the Construction Contracts Bill 2010 initiated in this House almost two years ago. I mention this because of the importance of the legislation to the construction industry and the length of time it takes to get things done. A number of amendments to the legislation have been proposed, following which this House will consider it. I hope that happens quickly.
I ask that the Leader ensure the Government is aware of the urgency of getting this legislation through the Dáil and Seanad prior to the summer recess so that it can be enacted, thus benefiting society as a whole and in particular the construction industry.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I, too, welcome the referendum on the fiscal compact treaty. I am one of a few people on this side who advocated that we should have a referendum. I have faith in the judgment of the Irish people. I believe the result of the referendum will be positive, which will increase Ireland's standing in Europe. I welcome the proposed debate on the treaty. I propose to the Leader that the Seanad take the lead in the debate on the referendum and that this House meet one or two Fridays a month between now and polling day to discuss European matters, with no limit in terms of speaking time and at which time people can express their views for or against the treaty and Europe. We could also consider inviting in outside experts, including the Minister, who have particular information in regard to Europe that could be useful.
The relevance of the Seanad is an issue regularly discussed. The Seanad is extremely relevant. However, it could and should play a pivotal role in the distribution of information on the referendum to citizens of the country. I ask that the Leader inquire as to the funding that will be made available to the referendum commission. It is hoped that the referendum commission will play an equally pivotal role in this referendum, not alone in respect of citizens who have a vote but to school children throughout the country. Debate on this referendum provides Government with an opportunity to engage with young people. I sincerely hope the referendum commission will distribute information that is relevant, useful, informative and set out in simple language which people can understand.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I ask that the Leader provide time for a debate on older Irish citizens. In September last, the Leader of Fianna Fáil, Deputy Martin, asked me to prepare a policy document for Fianna Fáil on the issue of older people in Irish society. I spent the past six months meeting the different groups engaged in this area. Yesterday, Deputy Martin and I launched this document, which has the full support of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party, as official Fianna Fáil policy on older people in Irish society. There are 500,000 people over the age of 65 years in this country. In less than 20 years, there will be one million older people in this country.
My document addresses key issues such as human rights and choice in the workplace for older people. Fianna Fáil proposes to introduce a Bill on the abolition of mandatory retirement in the public and private sector. There is no reason a person should have to retire on reaching 65 years of age. This is age discrimination.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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It is also unlawful. Mandatory retirement in the UK and Northern Ireland has been repealed. Fianna Fáil intends to introduce legislation in this area.
In January of this year, the euro-barometer indicated that 46% of Irish people would like to remain in work after 65 years of age. People are eager to participate in society. There are 20 recommendations in my document, all of which I will not go into now.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is the Senator looking for a debate on the issue?
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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One recommendation - in respect of which I pleaded with the former Minister, Deputy Harney - is that women of 65 years of age be entitled to free breast cancer screening.
Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Fianna Fáil proposes to introduce legislation which will ensure every woman over the age of 65 years will be entitled to free breast cancer screening. I will draw the attention of the House to my other recommendations on a daily basis.
Mary Moran (Labour)
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Recent courses organised by SafeTALK highlight the need for more help to encourage men to speak about depression and to seek help for their condition. It is widely recognised that men are more reluctant to speak about being depressed. This was highlighted at a course I recently attended through the use of video.
A recent newspaper article revealed that a study undertaken by the National Suicide Research Foundation in Cork found that 80% of suicide victims had been in touch with their GPs in the year prior to their suicide. It is sad that these people sought help but did not get it when they needed it. Our first port of call when anything is wrong is always the GP. I agree with Senator Gilroy and others that more training and suicide awareness among GPs is urgently needed. I would go further and ask that more training be provided to all health and community workers countrywide in an effort to reduce the incidence of suicide.
In the six years between 2003 and 2009, 75,119 people presented at emergency departments throughout the country following deliberate self harm. The National Registry of Deliberate Self Harm also reported that people who have deliberately self harmed are 30 to 50 times more likely to commit suicide. I ask that the Leader invite the Minister for Health to the House for a debate on suicide and, more important, on encouraging people to implement suicide awareness training for community and health workers.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I commend Senator Quinn on his work and achievement in respect of the construction contracts Bill. It is rare for an Independent Senator to have legislation accepted by Cabinet. The legislation concerned is important to sub-contractors and the private sector.
Like everyone else, I welcome the proposed referendum. One of the main concerns in respect of the treaty is the role of the European Central Bank and the democratic deficit with which we could be left. Also, there is no reassurance in regard to our common consolidated tax base. There will be a great deal of scaremongering in the run up to the referendum. However, that is part of any debate. Issues such as Ireland being thrown out of Europe, the euro and the EU will be up for debate.
It was stated by a colleague opposite that in my comments I was castigating the Germans. However, I was in that regard quoting German Ministers. The German Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, has proposed that Greece should delay its elections and that a technocrat cabinet should be put in place to run Greece. It is little wonder people are saying the Germans are running Europe. It is little wonder they are saying that when the Germans themselves are proposing that Europe will be run according to their wishes.
Aideen Hayden (Labour)
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It is a matter of supreme arrogance to assume I was referring to the Senator.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No, but I was referring to the Senator and her comment. That is the reason-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, in respect of Senator Daly and the comments regarding-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, that is not a point of order.
Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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No, it is a point of order. If he wishes to quote to the House, he should read the full article.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator, that is not a point of order. The Senator is wasting time.
Pat O'Neill (Fine Gael)
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He should put on record the entire article.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Daly, do you have a question for the Leader?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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For the benefit of the Senator, I will read the full article.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It states, "Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, even suggested postponing the election and setting up a small technocratic cabinet like Italy's to run Greece". I will forward a copy to the Senator.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Daly should respect the Chair.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is out of time. I call Senator Paul Coghlan.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I had only two interruptions. Outside of that, I look forward to the Government's point on when we reach our fiscal targets according to the new-----
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Daly, please resume your seat. I call Senator Paul Coghlan.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Senator Daly is trying to clarify his position.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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What budget will we have when we are obliged to reach those targets?
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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It is good to hear that man try to clarify his position. I do not always agree with my good friend, Senator Darragh O'Brien, on the Order of Business. This morning, however, I seriously compliment him on his steady, sure and responsible leadership with regard to the fiscal compact treaty and the referendum that now is to be held thereon. As he stated, it is in the interests of the common good. It will also build on the steady progress this country has been making and will support the growing international investor confidence in Ireland that has been so important. It will assist the economy and Ireland's reputation and the jobs that are flowing therefrom. It reaffirms our will and our commitment to the euro and membership thereof. It will give us stronger fiscal rules, which are necessary never to have a recurrence of what happened in the past and which led us into the appalling abyss from which we are recovering at present and hopefully will continue to recover. Moreover, it will confirm our commitment to responsible budgeting. For all these reasons, many of which were alluded to by Senator O'Brien, Government Members obviously equally agree. Moreover, they look forward to a highly constructive campaign and to working in harmony and co-operation with the Fianna Fáil grouping in this House. Hopefully, the Fianna Fáil grouping in the other House will unite as much as its Seanad counterpart has done and I compliment them in that regard.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I commend Senator Mary White on the wonderful work she has undertaken in respect of active ageism and in particular on the policy document on older people she launched earlier this week. All Members look forward to participating in the debate when the proposed legislation comes before the House and all sides of the House should support the aims contained within Senator White's document.
On another health-related issue, I support Senator MacSharry's call for the Minister for Health to come to the House because of the assurances and promises made in the north west both before and after the last general election in respect of two hospitals. I refer to the promises regarding Sligo General Hospital, the retention of cancer services there and the creation of a centre of excellence for cancer treatment in Sligo, as well as the retention of Lifford Community Hospital. These promises were made by Labour Party and Fine Gael candidates in Sligo-North Leitrim and Donegal South-West. They also were made by the current Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, when he visited Lifford last February. He stated categorically that were Fine Gael in government, the future of Lifford Community Hospital would be secure. Last week, Health Service Executive west published its report which confirmed that Lifford Community Hospital is closing. The only reason public consultation is now being entered into is because three ferocious elderly patients at Abbeyleix community hospital took the HSE to court before Christmas and won their case. The Minister for Health must come to this House because at a time when people's view of politics is challenging, Ministers have gone up and down the country making all sorts of promises simply to buy votes. Thereafter, having been elected and the faith of the people having been bestowed upon them-----
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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----- they turn around and throw it back in people's faces.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to ask a question of the Minister for Health.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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What does he intend to do to rehouse the 20 people at Lifford Community Hospital?
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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I appeal to the Leader to bring the Minister to this House today to answer some of these questions------
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Domhnaill, you are out of time.
Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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----- because thus far, he has evaded them.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Why did the Senator not ask the Minister when he was in the Chamber?
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Three Members are left and at the discretion of the Chair, I will give them one minute each.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Déanfaidh mé iarracht cúpla focal a rá i mo theanga féin. Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a gabháil leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Ring, ar an obair iontach a rinne sé le deanaí. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil a fhios ag Seanadóirí, ach beidh foirne ó seacht nó ocht tír ar fud an domhain ag teacht go príomh cathair na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath, chun cleachtadh a dhéanamh don Olympic Games. Tá siad ag teacht ó na Stáit Aontaithe, ó Venezuela, ó South Korea, ón Pholainn agus ó fud an domhain chugainn.
I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, as chairman of the Olympic co-ordinating committee, on obtaining this major tourism boost for Ireland. It is a true reflection of the magnificent world-class facilities available at the National Aquatic Centre. I wish to acknowledge this and issue a céad míle fáilte go gach foireann a bhfuil ag teacht go Baile Átha Cliath an samhradh seo.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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It is generally agreed that a good decision has been made to hold a referendum, which had been requested by all sides in this House, as well as among the public. As public representatives, three options are available to Members. First, they can stay quiet, keep their heads down and let others take the flak. Second, they can oppose it and feed on the anger which evidently exists. However, the third and most positive option is to support the referendum for the good of all the people and the good of the country. I do not wish to get into the area of scaremongering, which I am sure takes place on both sides. However, if Members deal only with the negative aspect of the present position, if they always work towards scoring political points and do not, for once, put their heads above the parapet, freely and independently, for the general good of all the people on this referendum, I certainly believe they will find themselves isolated to a large degree, which is not the case at present. I also believe this would do immense damage to Ireland's image internationally.
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I welcome both the holding of the referendum and the responsible attitude being displayed by the Fianna Fáil grouping this morning in supporting the referendum. I wish to support Senator Conway's call to the Leader to facilitate some additional sittings of the Seanad to debate this treaty in an open and responsible fashion. This would also fulfil the wishes of Senator Colm Burke, who called for the media to report responsibly in this regard. It would provide the latter with an opportunity to be present for those dates. All Members complain the media pays very little attention to what goes on in the Seanad. However, were Members to have a mature and open debate on all aspects of the treaty, the media may well see fit to concentrate on reporting the proceedings of this House in a much fuller fashion.
This probably will be the most important treaty on which people must decide because of its impact. The common good and the future of our country are very much at stake. This would be a further step along the road towards rebuilding Ireland's economy and restoring our international reputation, as well as contributing to strengthening the euro.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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Those points can be made during the debate.
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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It is certainly not a time for bashing any of our European partners because we are all in this together. This is probably the most significant decision we are going to be called on to make in the coming years.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Tá mé an-bhuíoch go bhfuil deis agam labhairt maidin inniu.
I welcome yesterday's announcement to the effect that a referendum on the fiscal compact is both required and will be held. In my view there is only one reason to vote "Yes" to the treaty, namely, that we will not have access to moneys from any new bailout fund if we do not do so. This is probably the only good reason to vote in favour of the treaty. I attended an interparliamentary meeting in Brussels in recent days at which considerably difficult issues regarding the contents of the fiscal compact were raised. The British have severe doubts about the legality of the compact. I expressed similar doubts a number of weeks ago. Questions also arose at the meeting in the context of what constitutes a structural deficit. One of the speakers informed us that there are at least 27 definitions in this regard. These issues will have to be teased out. On that basis, I request that the Leader meet his counterparts among the other groups in the House in order to establish the format that will apply in respect of the debate in which we will engage on this matter. We must ensure that our debate reaches the widest possible audience and has the greatest possible impact on people. We could do the public a good service by engaging in a Committee Stage-style debate. I accept that this is agreed but we should be informed as to the details of the debate.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I reiterate what I said on a number of previous occasions, namely, that some Members raise points on the Order of Business and then disappear without waiting for a reply. That is absolutely despicable. Two Members approached me when they had made their contributions and stated that they were obliged to attend committee meetings. Others, however, merely swanned off as usual. That is just not acceptable.
There are also certain Members who table matters to be raised on the Adjournment and who are then not present to discuss them when the relevant Ministers come before the House. That is also completely unacceptable.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It is shameful. Sanctions should be imposed.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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If we want the House to succeed in the way that it should, we must be more responsible in our attitude to it. I address my comments in this regard to Members who are not present in the Chamber.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader should name and shame those to whom he refers. This type of thing has been going on for too long.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I completely agree with the Senator that it has been going on for too long.
I wholeheartedly welcome the support of Fianna Fáil, which Senator Darragh O'Brien outlined, for the referendum on the fiscal compact, which will be of paramount importance in stabilising the economic situation in Europe. It will also be another vital step on the road to rebuilding Ireland's economy. As previous speakers indicated, the Seanad will play an important role in the debate on this matter. Long before the decision to hold the referendum was taken, the House had already determined that it would debate the fiscal compact in detail. We have already made arrangements for an information day for Members to be held in the audio-visual, AV, room on 8 March next. In addition, we will have a very constructive and detailed debate on every aspect of the fiscal compact. The Seanad will, therefore, play its part in the debate leading up to the referendum.
Senator Darragh O'Brien also referred to ComReg and An Post. I will try to obtain an update for him in respect of that matter.
I support the remarks made by Senator Whelan, particularly in respect of the household charge and the methods of payment relating thereto. There is certainly a need for local authorities to take a more active role with regard to this issue. The Senator stated that An Post should be involved in the payment process relating to the charge. He should remember that there will be a need for An Post to be competitive in its activities.
Senator Norris referred to pulling down the European project. I am obliged to ask where Ireland would be in the context of human rights and social policy if it was not a member of the European Union.
David Norris (Independent)
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On a point of order and if I might correct the Leader, I referred to bringing down the European financial system.
David Norris (Independent)
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It is a point of fact. I do not like to be misrepresented.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Sheahan referred to the cost of fuel. That is a matter which can be discussed with the Minister for Finance when he comes before the House.
I agree with Senator Walsh that the fiscal compact treaty will put in place a credible commitment to responsible budgeting. I assure him that the Government is committed to securing a deal on the promissory notes.
Senator Gilroy also referred to the referendum and is seeking proper, factual and informative comment during the debate relating to it. I am sure we all agree with the sentiments expressed by the Senator in that regard.
Senator Keane referred to the fact that today is International Rare Disease Day. There are over 250,000 people in this country who have rare diseases. It is important that when people are diagnosed with such diseases, the necessary drugs should be made available to them.
I assure Senator Ó Clochartaigh that the Government will consider the wording of the referendum carefully before it is put to the people. There will certainly be ample time available to discuss the treaty in its entirety.
Senator Hayden referred to the proposed referendum on children's rights. This will take place later in the year. The Government is completely committed to holding such a referendum and it will take place before the end of 2012. I agree with the Senator in respect of the anti-German sentiment among certain Members. It is regrettable that such sentiments were expressed.
Senator Hayden also called for a debate on housing and the construction industry. We are trying to arrange a debate with the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, on that matter.
Senator MacSharry spoke passionately about the national cancer strategy. We engaged in a debate with the Minister for Health only a couple of weeks ago and the Senator posed questions to him at that point. Numerous individuals had requested that such a debate take place but when the Minister came before the House, only ten Members were present to ask questions.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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People who seek debates should look into their hearts. I refer to those who request debates and who then do not attend when the relevant Minister comes before the House.
In the context of Senator Harte's comments, I am appalled that a member of a religious order is urging people not to pay a tax and to break the law. If that is the case, then it is despicable.
Senator Quinn referred to the Construction Contracts Bill. As he correctly pointed out, the Cabinet approved the Bill yesterday. I will emphasise to the Government the sense of urgency relating to the Bill. I compliment the Senator on bringing it before the House and on ensuring that it reached this stage. What happened in this instance highlights the importance of introducing Private Members' Bills in the House.
Senators Conway and Mullins requested that time be made available for a debate on the fiscal compact treaty. We will allow as much time as possible to be devoted to debating the latter in the House.
Senator White made a number of important points in respect of older people. I hope that the report of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee will be published very soon. It is a pity that it has not emerged as yet but it will be published in the near future. I am sure many of the recommendations it will contain are already contemplated in the booklet to which the Senator referred.
Senator Moran referred to men being encouraged to talk about depression. This is an extremely important matter and reference was made to it in the debate on suicide in which the House engaged on 12 January.
Senator Daly expressed certain sentiments in respect of Germany. It is regrettable that the Senator did not clarify the position with regard to and apologise for the points he made yesterday, when he insisted that the Government would not hold a referendum. Of course he made his remarks approximately two minutes prior to the Taoiseach's announcement that a referendum will be held. The Senator spoke a little too soon on the matter.
Senator Brennan referred to the teams that will be coming to Ireland to train prior to the Olympic Games. That will certainly provide a boost to tourism. We need all the boosts we can get at this point.
Senator Ó Murchú stated that the most positive action people can take is to support the treaty in the forthcoming referendum. I completely agree with him in that regard.
Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I am sure Members of the House would like to join me in wishing the Head Usher, Mr. Noel Kelly, well in his retirement. He is retiring today after a very long service in which he contributed to the smooth running of the House. He is a credit to the Oireachtas and has been an absolute gentleman to work with during the years.
Senator Marc MacSharry has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, "That a debate with the Minister for Health on the national cancer control programme be taken today." Is the amendment being pressed?
12:00 pm
The Seanad Divided:
For the motion: 20 (Thomas Byrne, John Crown, David Cullinane, Mark Daly, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Maire Maloney, Rónán Mullen, David Norris, Trevor Ó Clochartaigh, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Darragh O'Brien, Denis O'Donovan, Ned O'Sullivan, Averil Power, Feargal Quinn, Kathryn Reilly, Jim Walsh, Mary White)
Against the motion: 29 (Ivana Bacik, Paul Bradford, Terry Brennan, Colm Burke, Deirdre Clune, Paul Coghlan, Michael Comiskey, Martin Conway, Maurice Cummins, Jim D'Arcy, Michael D'Arcy, John Gilroy, Jimmy Harte, Aideen Hayden, Fidelma Healy Eames, James Heffernan, Imelda Henry, Lorraine Higgins, Caít Keane, John Kelly, Maire Maloney, Mary Moran, Tony Mulcahy, Michael Mullins, Marie Louise O'Donnell, Susan O'Keeffe, Pat O'Neill, Tom Shehan, John Whelan)
Tellers: Tá, Senators Marc MacSharry and Ned O'Sullivan; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and John Whelan..
Amendment declared lost.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The House will now pay tribute to our former colleague, the late Michael Doherty, who was affectionately known as "Mickey".
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am honoured to lead tributes to the late Michael or Mickey Doherty, a former Senator and councillor who sadly passed away late last year. I express my sincere sympathy to his family who are present. He was a man of great integrity who was committed to public service. The widespread and heartfelt tributes paid to him after his death demonstrated the high regard in which he had been held across the country, especially in his home county of Longford where he was affectionately known as "The Popular". He was a man with a great sense of humour and quick wit.
An auctioneer by profession, the Ballinalee native entered local politics in 1967, serving as a county councillor for more than two decades. Mickey then enjoyed a two year spell as a Senator from 1987 to 1989 after securing election to the 18th Seanad on the Administrative Panel. Perhaps best known for his role as a special adviser to the former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds, he stepped down from public life in 2000 following a long and distinguished career.
A first rate public servant, Mickey was a man of great character who always made time to listen to the ideas of others. He will be remembered in County Longford for his major work in improving conditions in St. Joseph's Hospital. He was a hard working and dedicated member of the health board for many years.
It is understood Mickey coined the phrase, "Votes do not swim across the River Shannon", when describing the election transfers in the former Longford-Roscommon constituency. While I did not have the pleasure of serving with him, I note the glowing tributes of his contemporaries, the most poignant of which came from his great friend, former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds.
At this time we must remember those closest to Mickey, in particular, his niece, Maura Gettings, who is with us in the Chamber. I also convey my sympathy to his friend and business partner, Councillor Victor Kiernan, who was unable to attend today, and all of his family and many friends in County Longford and throughout the country. I express my deepest sympathy to his Fianna Fáil Party colleagues in the Seanad, many of whom knew him personally. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Leader for arranging for Senators to pay tribute to a late and much loved colleague, Mickey Doherty. This House has a good record in acknowledging and saluting former Members who have gone to their eternal rest. It is particularly important to do this, not only for us to pay tribute to them but also to indicate to their families and the wider community the respect we have for former Members.
Mickey Doherty was a warm-hearted individual who approached people with a smile and was always very positive. He made a famous comment which showed that he was also calculated in helping his own people. He would always say, "Sure look, I am only a small farmer from a very deprived area." For those who remember him, the late Monsignor Horan made a similar comment on "The Late, Late Show" when he stated he was only a humble parish priest trying to build an airport at Knock. In many ways, Mickey and Monsignor Horan fell into the same category.
It is worth examining Mickey's career. Like many of his countrymen, he went to England to work for a while. This suggests he was not the type of person who would lie down if things were not going well. When he returned, he showed great spirit by establishing a small agricultural subcontracting business. That led to a thriving auctioneering business with his colleague, Councillor Victor Kiernan. He was the parliamentary assistant to Albert Reynolds but he was much more than an ordinary assistant because he had his ear to the ground and he had his finger on the pulse of everything that moved in Longford. He was exceptionally compassionate. He had a particular affection for those less fortunate than himself. He wanted to help them and he looked after the sick. He was closely associated with St. Joseph's Hospital and he looked out for carers. He was the type of public representative we would all like to be if we could. He went into public life not just for what he might get himself out of it but with the intention of helping other people.
The abolition of the health boards was not a good idea. When people like Mickey Doherty was sitting on a health board and a health issue came up, he would not have been stonewalled by the HSE because he made sure those who did not have health insurance cover would be looked after. He would make a case urgently and he had a reputation for that. He was chairman of the health board for five years.
Many stories have been told about his time as parliamentary assistant but he had a great understanding of how the system worked. He was not a messenger boy, as he always looked out for opportunities and he tried to analyse the problems on the ground. That says a great deal about the man. He could have led an easy life as a parliamentary assistant but he decided not to do that. He wanted to help other people.
He was a very warm character and it is nice not only that he will be remembered by the House but also that he has gone into the folklore of the democratic system. Any time one hears debates or discussions or people trying to make a point, whether it is about currency fluctuation or whatever, Mickey Doherty's name tends to come up. That is not just because he was colourful but because he had a way of getting a message across. He certainly knew how to handle the media. I do not think there was never a bad story about Mickey Doherty in the media. When one considers that he spent several decades as a county councillor, as a member and chairman of the health board, as parliamentary assistant and as a Member of Seanad Éireann, that he did not fall foul of the media shows he was a great public relations man. However, he did not engage in public relations in an overbearing way. He did it in a way which generated increasing affection towards him. However, once he had the person listening to him, he was able to make a strong case.
When he ran in the Seanad elections, he contested on the administrative panel. Members will know what it is like having had to bite their nails during election counts, and he was in a famous count in an election which was one of those after which people still talk about the anomalies that exist in the system. He had been nominated by the parliamentary party and he was the clear winner on that occasion. While he was a Member of the Seanad, I understand from colleagues who knew him very well that he gave so much to the Seanad and he used every minute of the short time he had here not just to work the system but also trying to mould the system to the needs of the community.
He was a great friend of Albert Reynolds, as we all know, and Albert depended on him. There are two words that would describe him in that context. One is "trust": he was totally trustworthy. The other, which we would all like to have in a colleague or friend, is "loyalty". He was loyal to the very end and would always stand up for the people with whom he worked. At the same time, to the best of my knowledge from what I know of him, he was not the type of politician who was into point scoring, as stated earlier. He got on with the work, he respected everyone and the fact that he went into partnership with a Fine Gael county councillor in the auctioneering business in some way helps to underline that.
I extend my sympathy to his niece, Maura Gettings, who is in the House with Séamus. I thank them and all the family for sharing him with us both in public life and in many other activities. He will be remembered for a long time to come and he was the kind of person who would have justified the existence of Seanad Éireann. Tá súil agam go bhfuil sé ar thaobh Dé. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam uasal. Ní bheith a leithéid arís ann.
John Whelan (Labour)
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I am pleased to add my voice and those of my colleagues in the Labour Party to pay tribute and pay our respects to the legendary Mickey Doherty. I had the privilege of knowing him when he was a member of the Midland Health Board. I often covered its meetings in Tullamore and Mickey was a guy who would fill many columns in the Longford Leader. As Senator Ó Murchú pointed out, he had a way with words and a great way with people. While he was assertive, he did not cross swords or fall foul of people but, none the less, got the job done. Perhaps I could learn from him and many of us could take a leaf out of his book in terms of how he performed his duties as a public representative.
I agree that the likes of Mickey Doherty are a great loss to bodies such as regional health boards, which were accessible and accountable and held the system to account on a monthly basis. The stories about Mickey Doherty are legion and some have gone into the folklore of the political class in the midlands. He was a great man for the "spakes". He would come out with great lines and he will always be affectionately remembered for them.
If Mickey was with us today, he would be looking forward to the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis because he was surely Albert Reynolds's right-hand man. In a time before spin doctors and special advisers, Mickey Doherty filled all those roles for Fianna Fáil and Albert Reynolds, even when he was elevated to the highest office of the land as Taoiseach. His loyalty was to Fianna Fáil and he was unapologetic about that. He was also a fully committed community man. I extend our sincere sympathies to his family and to his second family, Fianna Fáil. He loved Fianna Fáil in the same fashion as his family. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.
Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I echo the remarks of my colleague, Senator Ó Murchú, in thanking the Leader for facilitating these expressions of sympathy to the late Mickey Doherty. I am one of the few current Members who had the pleasure of serving in the House with him, which is an admission of my own advancing years. What I always remember about him, whether it was inside or outside the House, was the twinkle in his eye and his understated personality. It was deceptive and people who did not know him - and Senator Whelan summed it up well having observed him, as a journalist, at various meetings - underestimated Mickey's intelligence and awareness of politics at their peril. That was a great quality of his. He was the archetypal local politician who fitted easily into national politics during the time he was in the House.
Senator Whelan was correct about him not engaging with the media in a negative way. In fact, Mickey had a very positive relationship with the media. There are few people who could have had Miriam Lord eating out of their hands - I mean that in a literal sense. They enjoyed each other. A story was told here on a previous occasion about a comment that Mickey made to Miriam - I think it was Miriam, but certainly she was present - while they were waiting for Albert to appear at a count in Longford. The journalists were becoming very agitated because they needed to file their copy, but Albert, who was Taoiseach at the time, had not turned up. Mickey had gone to his house and Albert had said he was not going to go the count until later, so Mickey had to create some sort of diversion to placate the journalists, and he said that Albert was dealing with serious financial matters. I understand the fallout from those comments affected the value of the Irish pound, and Mickey enjoyed that. He would not have seen it as being something horrendous or awful that he should hide away from. He actually enjoyed it.
I remember Mickey as a happy, well-balanced individual with a twinkle in his eye. The best way of describing him is as a latter-day ward boss. He had a political antenna that was unrivalled. He and Albert worked extremely closely together, and it was a fitting tribute that Albert was chief mourner at the funeral. I know he will miss him greatly. We all miss Mickey greatly, and I echo the expressions of sympathy to Maura, his niece, and to Séamus, who are with us. I am so pleased they are here. I know the Fianna Fáil Deputy for Longford-Westmeath, Deputy Troy, was instrumental in arranging for these expressions of sympathy to be held. He is also present in the Chamber. Deputy Troy would have enjoyed Mickey - not that he needs any help in his political advancement - because he loved politics above everything else. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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Along with Senator Mooney, I feel a little old this morning, as I served in the Seanad from 1987 to 1989 with the late Senator Mickey Doherty. It was certainly an enjoyable experience dealing with such a colourful character and profoundly popular politician. It was an interesting Seanad in 1987 because, as Senator Mooney knows, we were not meeting in this Chamber, as it was being renovated, but in the anteroom next door. The desks were small and space was limited, and every comment, quip and utterance was heard throughout the House. I cannot give in graphic detail an account of the morning when Senator Doherty was stopped from speaking by the then Cathaoirleach Tras Honan, but it certainly was a memorable morning for all of us who were there. The Official Record of the Seanad reads "Interruptions", but it was a bit more lively than that. I believe it was actually Mickey Doherty's first speech, or first attempted speech, in the Seanad. Of course, as Senator Mooney and others will recall, he was elected on the same panel as Tras Honan so there was a bit of natural tension between them.
Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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His first intervention was certainly a memorable occasion. He was a fascinating, friendly and chatty man. I suppose that in today's very politically correct politics, where it is more about soundbites and spin doctors than substance, he would be a little lost, but he was a colossus in the politics of Longford and the midlands, and in the Fianna Fáil Party, for all of his political career.
During last year's Seanad election, as I was touring the highways and byways of County Longford, I was travelling on a road I did not know when I suddenly saw Mickey Doherty standing by the wall of his lovely house. I stopped the car and reintroduced myself to him, as we had not met for a number of years and his health was failing. Not surprisingly, he invited me in for tea, and we had a lovely chat and half an hour's conversation about life and times then and now. I was pleased to have that opportunity to meet him after so many years. As my Fianna Fáil colleagues have said, he was very close to the former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds, and they enjoyed their times together. Their style and approach to life and politics were very similar.
I will conclude with something I read in the local newspapers. I really regret that I was unaware of his death, as I certainly would have attended his funeral. I apologise to his family, but I was unaware of it until I read about it in the media some days afterwards. The former Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, who gave the graveside oration, used a phrase that sums up Mickey. He said that on one occasion when they were having a debate or clash about the disadvantaged areas scheme, Mickey described himself as being "a slightly handicapped man from a severely handicapped area". That is a perfect summary of Mickey - serious and humorous all rolled into one. He had a great political career and a great business career with his Fine Gael colleague, Victor Kiernan. He saw the bigger picture in life. He knew that politics was important but it was not the most important thing. Rather, friendship and community and helping one's neighbours formed the biggest piece of the jigsaw for him, and he was supreme at that.
As Senator Ó Murchú said, he is a colleague who will be long spoken of. When I looked at the record I actually thought he had served here for five years, or two terms, and I was surprised to see he had served for only one term. It is amazing that in that one short term he left such a legacy that even people who never met him have heard about him and are entertained by stories of what he got up to. We will certainly remember him here in Leinster House, but I am sure he will be remembered by his family and the people of Longford as a decent politician who genuinely did the State some service.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom aontú leis an méid atá ráite ar son Mickey Doherty. Mickey was both an institution and a character. As Senator Mooney said, one underestimated him at one's peril. He portrayed a very understated ability, but his astuteness in politics was certainly noted in his local area. Reference has been made to his close friendship over the years with the former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds. It is probably fair to say that Albert Reynolds might never have entered politics, and certainly might never have graced these Houses, but for Mickey Doherty. I think Albert Reynolds himself would concede that. It was unheard of in 1977 to do as Mickey Doherty did when, as a prominent Fianna Fáil member and councillor in the area, he decided to support Albert Reynolds as a candidate against a sitting TD. If that happens, generally it is the person him or herself challenging a TD rather than promoting somebody else. It showed a selflessness about the man. He was interested in and totally committed to the party and to Longford, and he obviously saw the potential in Albert Reynolds. That in itself would have created a tremendous bond between them and a great sense of gratitude, which I know the former Taoiseach always felt towards Mickey. However, there was also a great personal bond between them.
I recall an evening some time after the general election in 1989 when Albert Reynolds pulled up in his car outside my house with Mickey Doherty sitting in the back seat. He wanted to know whether I would mind accompanying them around Wexford so that Mickey could canvass all the councillors. It was coming up to teatime and he felt that with a bit of help they could get around that night, which he did. I was regaled with stories throughout the night as we went for cups of tea in the various houses. I would have known the former Taoiseach and although I did not know Mickey terribly well, I really got to know him that night. He was a most unassuming, genuine and very witty and funny man, as the Leader said.
Mickey Doherty certainly made his mark on Fianna Fáil and the health boards, but also on the country. I recall that after Albert Reynolds was elected Taoiseach he identified his two priorities as trying to achieve peace in Northern Ireland and tackling unemployment. Many people thought he was setting himself up for a huge fall because these objectives did not seem achievable at the time. He worked hard on it and Mickey worked closely with him in that period and it was interesting to hear Senator Mooney's story about the count where it caused a run on the punt. It was a case of Mickey covering for Albert who, after a long election campaign, needed relaxation and perhaps a few extra hours in bed. Mickey felt that was not a good image for the Taoiseach to portray so he came up with this great excuse but when it went on the airwaves, everyone thought the punt was under pressure and it led to a bit of a run on it. As Senator Mooney said, Mickey would have seen that as normal in the course of politics. He treated national politics like local politics, and if we all reflect on it, there is very little difference.
He is a man who made his mark, a genuine man, and I was proud and pleased to get to know him after that excursion around the roads of Wexford in 1989. Like Senator Bradford, I was unaware of his death until we resumed after Christmas and I extend my sympathies to Maura and Séamus and other members of his family. Ar dheis Dé agus i measc na n-aingeal agus na naomh go raibh a anam dílis.
David Norris (Independent)
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I am glad to have this accidental opportunity to pay tribute to the late Senator Mickey Doherty. I say accidental because it is not on the Order Paper and I was taking a briefing about a completely different matter and I came back here thinking I might have missed an amendment I was interested in on the other Bill. By pure accident, Senator Doherty has served me well.
I am one of the few people here today - there are a sprinkling - who remembers Senator Mickey Doherty. If I recall him correctly, he was a Member of the Seanad when it sat outside in the antechamber and I believe Tras Honan was the Cathaoirleach at that stage. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. They were two very colourful characters who were on the same Seanad election panel. The reason for meeting in the antechamber was because this magnificent chamber was in difficulty and the entire central panel in the ceiling was in a state of collapse. I am sure Senator Doherty, who took an interest in craft and in the economy of this country, would not object to my saying that it is a tribute to the craftsmanship that survives among the Irish that while many people who come into this Chamber look at the panels and comment on how great the talent was back in the days and that such work could not be done these days, the fact is it could. No one could tell the difference between those three panels.
Senator Doherty was a colourful character. We in Dublin are inclined to talk about Dublin characters and bemoan the fact they have all died out and possibly feel the same about politics. Senator Doherty was certainly a colourful character. He was a product of the midlands and I savoured every meeting with him because my own roots on my mother's side are very much from the midlands and he was so much a midlands man. He knew his background and people extraordinarily well. That is a talent. It would be foolish to say he was the greatest orator I ever heard in this House but he knew politics inside out and he knew his own people. I recall the late Frank O'Connor speaking during a class in Trinity College when he taught there for some time and saying that sometimes people dismiss others for being parochial but if one knows one's own parish, one knows the whole world. The danger is being provincial and he made a distinction between the two. Senator Doherty knew his parish so intimately, it gave him an insight into human nature.
I always felt there was something roguish about him. He would flit through the corridors of power with a half smile and a twinkle in his eye and we would know something was up. He was a close adviser of Albert Reynolds who was, in my opinion, another decent man who also came from Longford, rose through the ranks and brought that kind of experience with him. He will be missed. He was a colourful character. It is often said: "Ní fheicfimid a leithéid arís ann"; we will not see his like again. I rather doubt we will see another Mickey Joe Doherty and we are impoverished for that. Some of the colour has gone out of Irish political life. He was also, if I recall correctly, a remarkable tallyman. I imagine he would agree with those of us here who felt there was a place for the píosa páipéir and the peann luaidhe at elections, with all the drama, excitement and human element.
I extend my condolences to his niece and nephew and say that wherever he is, I expect he is up to his ears in it. I, certainly, am sorry he has left us.
Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim leis na briathra ómóis don iar-Sheanadóir Mickey Doherty thar ceann pháirtí Shinn Féin sa Teach seo. Casadh lena mhuintir, Máire agus Séamus, atá anseo, lena chairde agus lena ghaolta ar fad agus go háirithe le muintir Fhianna Fáil a bhí mór leis. Is léir óna chomhghleacaithe Rialtais agus iar-Rialtais, idir an Seanad, an Dáil agus eile, agus mar is léir ó na briathra go dtí seo, gur duine é a raibh ard-mheas air, an-spraoi ann agus an-chion ag daoine air. Is cinnte go bhfuil sé feiliúnach go mbeimis sa Seanad ag tabhairt ómóis do na daoine a chuaigh romhainn mar tá sé fíorthábhachtach go n-aithnímid an t-ionchur a bhí ag daoine sa phróiseas pharlaiminteach ar fad agus an chaoi go gcuireann siad le cúrsaí polaitíochta sa tír seo. Cé go mbeimis ag easaontú ó am go chéile ó thaobh polasaí agus eile, tá sé fíorthábhachtach go bhfuil ómós ann dá chineál agus thar ceann Sinn Féin ba mhaith liom sin a chur in iúl.
On behalf of Sinn Féin, I add to the sentiment of what has been said by previous speakers. I did not know Mickey Doherty but I have heard about him and having heard some of the stories we have heard today, I would love to hear more of them and I would say we surely will in the next couple of years. It is important that the Seanad takes time out to pay respect to those people who have served in this House and in the public sphere. It is a great sacrifice to make on their own behalf and on behalf of their families and, on behalf of Sinn Féin, I convey our condolences to Maura and Séamus who are here in the Gallery. I am sure Mickey was central to a lot of the work done by the iar-Thaoiseach, Albert Reynolds, on behalf of the peace process, which was greatly welcome. It is important we recognise those who went before us and learn and respect what they stood for and achieved.
Thar ceann páirtí s'againne, ba mhaith liom suaimhneas faoi shíoraí a ghuí air agus ar chuile duine a chuaigh romhainn. Beannacht dhílis Dé lena anam agus go dtuga Dia slán é.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I too wish to be associated with the tributes to the late Mickey Doherty, who was a Member of this House from 1987 to 1989. I knew him well as a councillor and met him at several ard-fheiseanna. I did not serve with him; he finished his service here in 1989 and I came into the Seanad later that year.
As has been said, he was quite a character with a great sense of humour and turn of wit. He was a dedicated member of Fianna Fáil for his whole life and he served the people of Longford well. He was a close confidante and loyal supporter of Albert Reynolds at all times and was very proud when he was made Taoiseach. He was also loyal to Fianna Fáil and travelled to conferences throughout the country. As a Member said earlier, he had a great twinkle in his eye; there was a bit of devilment in him. At the same time, he was very able in contributing to various debates. He also had a great grasp of what was happening in politics, particularly local politics. A Member said earlier that the votes could not swim across the River Shannon in the old Longford-Roscommon constituency. Earlier today I saw Deputy Troy and there was certainly a transfer of votes from Longford to Westmeath in the last election, which helped Deputy Troy to be elected.
I extend my sympathy to his niece Maura and her husband Séamus. The Cathaoirleach, Senator Paddy Burke, wishes to be associated with the tributes today.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Before suspending the sitting, I wish to acknowledge and welcome the presence of a Minister from Israel in the Visitors Gallery.