Seanad debates

Wednesday, 27 May 2009

Report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse: Statements

 

1:00 pm

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for Education and Science to the House.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome this opportunity to contribute to the debate this afternoon on the report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. At the outset, I emphasise the Government's abhorrence at what was allowed to happen to children in these institutions. No one could be unmoved by the horror of what occurred.

For years the story of those who suffered in the residential institutions remained hidden and ignored. Worse still, their stories were denied. When they tried to speak out, their claims and accusations were rejected. One can only imagine the hurt and frustration they suffered in those years when they tried to tell us, but we were not listening. They have now been vindicated.

The Taoiseach's apology in 1999 and the establishment of the commission and the redress board were the first steps on the path that has brought us to the truth of what really happened, to the acknowledgement of the story of the children in these institutions and to redress for the damage caused. It is fitting that we pay tribute to those former residents who gave evidence to the commission so that the truth can be surfaced. To revisit the horrors of the past must have been very painful and their fortitude and courage has to be commended. It is important also at this time to remember those former residents who are no longer with us, who did not live to see these days of disclosure and vindication.

In devising the arrangements for investigation and redress, the Government attempted to make them as non-adversarial as possible. In the case of the redress board the process was made as simple as possible. This was a much more benign system than having to go to court to justify their claims with adversarial cross-examination. The burden of proof is significantly less onerous than in the courts process.

The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse comprised a confidential committee and an investigative committee. The confidential committee provided a forum in which former residents could tell their story in a non-adversarial setting. In the case of the investigation committee where allegations were being investigated, there was no legal way of preventing cross-examination and people against whom allegations were made had to be allowed due process. However, the arrangements that I have outlined were designed to minimise adversarial elements in the interests of the former residents. Nevertheless, giving evidence must have been painful and traumatic, and the bravery of those who gave evidence has enabled the full story to be told. However, the adversarial nature of the cross-examination at the investigative committee did no credit to the congregations.

The commission's report is a profoundly important document. It presents us with a compelling and disturbing account of a dark aspect of our society. It brings the shameful history into the full glare of public scrutiny. The appalling reality of life in these institutions is laid bare in the report. It articulates the reality of the neglect, fear and abuse which shaped the lives of tens of thousands of our most vulnerable children from the youngest age. Is it any wonder the horrifying nature of their experiences shaped and blighted so many of their lives? The harrowing accounts of the lives of children in these institutions helps the rest of us to understand somewhat the continuing pain and distress which is all too evident in the lives and statements of the survivors.

The State indicated at the public hearings of the commission its regret for inadequacies in discharging its function in relation to the industrial and reformatory school system. Areas in which the State has publicly acknowledged that there were failings include funding, inspections, handling of complaints, education and training. The commission's recommendations are addressed to the State and to the religious congregations involved in the operation of the institutions. There are wider conclusions and recommendations which are, in effect, addressed to all of us as a society, not least in our approach to the well-being of children and others who are vulnerable and dependent on effective care and support.

The report makes clear that from the State perspective abuse of children occurred because of failures of system and policy, management and administration and of senior personnel concerned with industrial and reformatory schools. While we apologise wholeheartedly for these failings, our wholehearted apologies will never undo those failures. I believe the most important recommendation in the report is that the lessons of the past be learnt. We must never forget what happened and we must ensure it is never allowed to happen again.

We owe it to the thousands of victims and the commission to study this report carefully, to reflect on its conclusions and to act on its recommendations. For this reason, the Government decided to hold a special meeting yesterday to begin the process of detailed consideration of how we should respond. The Government has accepted all the recommendations in the report and, as the Taoiseach stated last night, we are fully committed to their full implementation.

My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, will develop a plan in regard to implementation of the recommendations. In developing this plan, he will consider the various issues which need to be addressed and what actions are necessary, feasible and effective. This plan will include a more detailed analysis of the precise actions required, a timetable for their implementation and the costs and other resources associated with these actions. The implementation plan will be brought to Government for approval by end July 2009.

Consideration of actions to implement the Commission's recommendations will centre on further implementation of robust independent inspection processes relating to children receiving personal social services; ensuring that a child centred approach is taken and the voice of the child is heard in the development of policy and its implementation; how best to hold service providers to account in the implementation of the recommendations, in particular in relation to child welfare and protection guidelines and the associated legislative and regulatory provisions required. In addition, the Government will consult representatives of the survivors of abuse in relation to the memorial to victims.

The report also raises serious issues for the congregations. The commission believes they need to examine how their ideals became debased by systemic abuse. The report confirms that the management of orders were aware of the widespread abuse and did not act or, in the case of sex abusers, moved staff to other institutions even though the recidivist nature of such abuse was known. Terrible crimes were committed and the individuals who committed these crimes must face the full rigours of the law. An assistant Garda commissioner has been charged with examining the report. The Government will provide the Garda and the DPP with full support in pursuing criminal investigations that might arise.

In light of the horrific, systemic abuse recorded in the report, the Government has decided to call on the relevant congregations to provide a substantial additional contribution towards the cost of the redress scheme and to meet the ongoing needs of victims. There is a moral and social imperative for them to face up to their responsibilities. In calling on them to do this, I know the Government has the full support of all Members of the Oireachtas and the Irish people, who have been horrified by the scale of the abuse. It is deeply shameful for all Irish people that this was allowed to happen in our country for so long without being challenged.

I welcome the all-party approach to dealing with this report, which is in keeping with the spirit and tone demanded by victims. I acknowledge the statement published yesterday by the Christian Brothers, in which they accept their culpability and moral obligation to former residents and the acknowledgement by their representative that this is long overdue. I welcome also their willingness to commit additional resources in reparation for abuses of the past and the fact that they want to consult the Government and other stakeholders on how this can be achieved.

As the Taoiseach stated last night and again today, other individual congregations involved should now also articulate their willingness to make a further substantial voluntary contribution. I welcome the indications given by a small number of congregations this morning. The Government will be meeting with representatives of the congregations to discuss the making of further contributions and how this will be done. This will include the possible establishment of a trust which would be available to support education and welfare services for victims. It is important, given the concerns about how matters were handled in the past, that there is transparency in the way the public can assess the significance of contributions by reference to the resources available to the congregations.

As a society, we owe Justice Ryan and the commission members a deep debt of gratitude for their comprehensive report. I again thank the former residents of the institutions who so bravely gave evidence to the commission. Their bravery has given a voice to thousands of victims, for which we are indebted to them. I reiterate the Government's commitment to the implementation of the report's recommendations. We owe this to the victims and to current and future generations of children in Ireland.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and hope he can stay for the whole debate, which marks a watershed in our social history.

In February 2009, following the Roscommon abuse case, I wrote an article entitled "Is it time for mandatory reporting of child abuse in Ireland". Following publication of that article in my local paper in Galway, a man, a victim of abuse in Letterfrack, one of the institutions covered in the report, visited my office. He told me he had been placed in that institution for three years for mitching school at the age of 12. He said he was raped, buggered and beaten. Luckily, in his case there was a conviction, but his life has been destroyed. Years later, in my office he cried about the difficulties he has experienced in his health in respect of alcoholism and particularly in forming relationships. Intimacy is very difficult for him owing to flashbacks. It took him nine years to get the courage to ask a woman out and, on a trip to Letterfrack, she admitted to him that she too had been abused. This is our history of shame.

I am aware of another case involving a young mother who reported the abuse of her 11 year daughter but found that the Director of Public Prosecutions refused to take a prosecution. I saw her distress as recently as last week, when I sought advice from Deputy Charles Flanagan. She is overwrought. In the absence of children's rights being enshrined in our Constitution, a statutory footing for the Children First guidelines or mandatory reporting by professionals, I hold little hope for change. I fear this litany of abuse will continue unless legal protections are put in place.

The Irish people have a history in which 170,000 children were plucked from their mothers' arms and put into institutions which destroyed their lives. The lesson we learn from this must be that children come first. The matter is now in the lap of the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues.

The report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse is an appalling litany of sexual abuse, physical brutality and neglect perpetuated over a period of decades in institutions operated by various religious groups, men and women. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Barry Andrews, has described the report as a catalogue of failure and neglect by the State and religious congregations. This is the challenge he and his Government colleagues must address.

The State failed abjectly to enforce its own rules and regulations with regard to the treatment of children in institutional care. However, as Deputy Shatter has noted, the publication of this report should not mislead anyone into believing all is now well with our child protection services. Why, for example, were the recommendations of the Monageer report blacked out? In the aftermath of that report's publication, the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, refused to resource an after hours social work service because it would cost the State €15 million. I wonder whether he feels the same way now. The Ombudsman for Children had to call off an investigation because of difficulties with the HSE, the authority charged with the protection of our children's health. In recent days, the 2007 HSE report revealed that more than 8,000 child protection cases were not investigated during 2007. Where are these children now?

I draw the Minister's attention to what he is doing to children with mild learning difficulties. Children who have no speech or need toileting are being mainstreamed. As an educator who has worked in many classrooms, I can tell him that mainstream classes are no place for many of the children concerned. This will come back to bite us if we are not careful.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Are they mild learning disabilities?

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Yes, they are mild.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Then perhaps they should be reclassified.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Allow Senator Healy Eames to continue.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We will note that for the record. These examples show that the Government has repeatedly failed to protect children even to the present. The report recommends that child care rules and regulations should be enforced, with breeches reported and sanctions applied, and that management at all level should be held accountable for the quality of services and care provided.

These areas have not just been ignored but deliberately avoided by the Government and, in particular, the Minister of State, who is under severe stress in coping with his huge workload. Prior to Christmas, he admitted he did not have time to read the Cloyne report. This issue is far bigger than the Taoiseach realises. Instead of holding providers of child care accountable for the quality of services they deliver, the Government accords the welfare and safety of children a lower priority than protecting the reputation of those who fail to implement the guidelines properly. As was evident from the treatment of the Monageer report, the culture of secrecy and cover up is still alive and well. Why else would the recommendations be blacked out? Members on the opposite side of the House are asking the same question.

I have for some time argued that we face a real crisis in child protection and this report shines a bright light on my contention. I ask that the Minister discontinue the rhetoric on the Government's prioritisation of child protection. Is it likely we will see legislation in this House before the summer recess? When will the Children First guidelines be put on a statutory footing? Our schools provide inadequate training on the guidelines, with one or at most two designated liaison persons trained in each school. Without this training, teachers may not recognise the signs of abuse in children. A constitutional amendment on the rights of children is not imminent, even though Deputy Bertie Ahern made a key announcement on this prior to the 2007 general election, no doubt to deflect attention from the Mahon tribunal. This is another example of the lip service and window dressing to which we have grown accustomed.

How can the public have confidence in the Government when the Taoiseach has relegated this important area to an overworked junior Minister? It was decided that the implementation plan would be published at the end of July, when we are on holidays and probably attending the Galway races.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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She is being nasty now.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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As I noted earlier, the Minister of State chose not to resource an out-of-hours social work service——

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's tone is inappropriate to this debate.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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——subsequent to the publication of the Monageer report.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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This is a serious issue and her comments are uncalled for.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We have learned that more than 8,000 child protection cases——

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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She will not get any credit from the people for her tone.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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——were not investigated in 2007.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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The public will see her for what she is.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Members, please.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a disgrace in this House.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is a disgrace because it is not new.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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What she is saying is a disgrace.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please allow Senator Healy Eames to continue.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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This is not new.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator Healy Eames to control herself.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We are all disgusted now.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames without interruption.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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She should withdraw her last comment about the Galway races.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It is true. We will be at the Galway races.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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She is playing politics.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames without interruption.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I would like to be able to continue.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Members will have an opportunity to reply.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The victims demand that we take a proper tone in this debate.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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This is a proper tone.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Do not take that tone.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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This is a respectful tone. We have learned that more than 8,000 reported child protection cases were not investigated by the HSE in 2007. Some of these children's lives could have been at risk. Last year, social workers in Galway, which had the lowest rate of social workers per caseload, told me they were overworked and worried about files which had been left unopened for longer than two weeks.

It is time to introduce mandatory reporting of child abuse in Ireland, whereby one is obliged by law to report a suspicion of child neglect or abuse to the relevant authorities. Mandatory reporting would be helpful in providing professionals such as teachers and doctors with an explanation for why they had to report their suspicions. Today's patterns reveal that little has been learned. The recommendations made in various reports on Government action and reform of child care services have not been implemented. The HSE and the Government have signally failed to implement the Children First guidelines since their publication in 1999. If the guidelines were given statutory force, it would be a different matter. Will the Minister give them statutory force in his implementation plan? When will we have the promised referendum on enshrining children's rights in the Constitution? Loathe though I am to say it, our children will remain at risk until this happens. Whistleblower legislation is also required to enable anyone to report suspicions. I call on the Government to devise a means for rescinding the criminal records of child victims. Some of these children were criminalised for mitching school. Today, children are absent for more than 60 days before the State acts.

For the victims who have had the courage to tell their stories, healing is critical. A review of compensation is needed. I am appalled by CORI's response. Speaking on behalf of that organisation, Ms O'Connor said the deal was closed.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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She is a sister, not a miss.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I have always respected Fr. Seán Healy but I am now concerned about his preaching on social justice. I ask him not to disappoint us because we have listened to his pre-budget briefings. Unless a new statement is issued I think we will never listen to them in the same way again. Is it another case of saying one thing and doing another?

I welcome the statement by Cardinal Seán Brady that the religious orders could do more, as well as Archbishop Diarmuid Martin's response. The initiatives taken by the Christian Brothers, the Oblate Order and the Sisters of Mercy are no more than is absolutely essential. The other 15 orders now need to speak out. As we know, the Vatican is rich. We must never forget the actions that have destroyed lives and caused death.

A memorial to mark abuse and a national day of atonement are good proposals. They would make it all right to talk about abuse and to acknowledge our history of shame. This, in itself, is a healing process. At the core of this there was too much submission to the religious authorities at the time. The State has a duty as the victims were betrayed by the State which handed them over to the religious orders, which in turn abused their powers and moral responsibility.

Reading the description by the ex-mayor of Clonmel, Mr. Michael O'Brien, I was outraged by the treatment he suffered at the hands of seven barristers questioning him in the commission. He said he attempted to commit suicide after that experience. Those of us who never experienced abuse cannot possibly understand what it is like or the sensitivity needed in dealing with such victims. At the core of this matter also is a perverted, unhealthy and abusive perception of sexuality, which was used as a means to dominate and silence children.

We need to address this matter as a nation, but I am by no means convinced that we have done so. In schools we have the Stay Safe programme and the Relationships and Sexuality Education, RSE, programme. I was one of those trainers and I know that we have always had difficulties in this area. Despite the earlier vision that every teacher would be an RSE educator, most schools now bring in an expert at the end of the senior classes because of teachers' difficulties in handling the subject matter. While the honesty of their position must be respected, the question remains as to whether this quick-fix injection on sexuality is an adequate way to convey a healthy view of relationships and sexuality. I am inclined to think it is not. I also accept, however, that parents have a responsibility in this regard.

It is clear that power corrupts. In this report, we see how both sexuality and violence were used as a means to abuse power. The sad fact is that it is still going on. The organisation One in Four did not get its name for nothing. Failure to act now will further compound our shame. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response to my recommendations on statutory guidelines, including mandatory reporting and constitutional safeguards for children, as well as the Government's commitment to timeframes for delivery. I ask the Minister to change the relevant date to the end of July so that the Houses will be sitting when the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, brings forward his implementation report.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, were the specific questions I asked the Leader of the House on Tuesday referred to the Minister and, if so, why were they not alluded to in the Minister's speech? If he is not aware of them it is clear that those questions were not conveyed to the Minister. I asked them specifically so the Minister could address them in his opening speech today. Like everyone else, I think we should avoid these outbursts of false rage that I saw happening here. That will not set the tone for what is happening.

Photo of Batt O'KeeffeBatt O'Keeffe (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Senator to maintain a proper tone concerning what is a very difficult situation for all of us.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please, we are dealing with statements on the report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. I call Senator Mary White, who has 15 minutes.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Healy Eames should apologise to the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, because she inferred something negative — that he might be so busy attending the Galway races.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Senator, but we have just made a remark on the tone of this whole debate. The Senator and the Government are acting as if we should go down on our knees to apologise to them. It is out of order.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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This is too serious so stop that nonsense.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mary White, without interruption.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I spoke every day on the Order of Business since this report came out.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should move on.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept the appallingly derogatory words of Senator Healy Eames that the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, is overwhelmed with his brief.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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May I respond? I would be happy to respond.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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How does the Senator know he is overwhelmed?

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator Healy Eames to resume her seat. It is Senator Mary White's opportunity to speak. She has 15 minutes to speak on the report but almost one minute has already elapsed.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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When a person gets up to speak on this serious issue they should not engage in criticising the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Barry Andrews, by saying he might be at the races in Galway. I do not know why she said that.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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That was not what I said.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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She did say that.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I did not say it.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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She did. She always changes her mind about what she said.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should check the record of what I said.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should apologise. Members of the Opposition should know that the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, sits at Cabinet. That is a serious position and all his colleagues can hear what he has to say. It is a very senior position.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Check the record, please.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should stop wasting time.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Please allow Senator Mary White to continue without interruption.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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She is taking from her talent to get diverted so easily.

Photo of Fidelma Healy EamesFidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What would the Senator call her outburst?

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, to the House.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's time is slipping away.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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Over the period 1936 to 1970, a total of 170,000 children and young people entered the gates of the 50 industrial and reformatory schools. Just think about it. The Ryan report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse in Industrial and Reformatory Schools was described last week by the New York Times as the "map of an Irish hell". The Ryan report calmly describes the systematic torture of defenceless children involving more than 800 known abusers in over 200 institutions during a period of 35 years. As the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, said, tens of thousands of children were abused by 800 known abusers.

Children were flogged, kicked, scalded, burned and held under water. It was instilled in the children by those in charge of the institutions that nobody else wanted them and that they would never be successful in life. Sexual abuse was widespread in boys' institutions. The schools investigated by the Ryan commission reveal a substantial level of sexual abuse of boys, which extended over a range from improper touching and fondling to rape with violence. Much of the abuse took place at night in the institutions and, thus, many survivors now find it difficult to sleep. Night time therefore is often when they need someone to talk to and the lack of a 24-hour helpline, apart from the Samaritans, continues to cause grief.

This Irish hell did not take place in secret. Complaints were made to the Garda Síochána, the Department of Education, health boards, priests and members of the public. Department of Education officials were deferential and submissive to the religious congregations and did not have the moral courage to shout "Stop". Not only were children abused by the religious orders, but they were also often sexually exploited by volunteer workers, visitors, work placement employees, foster parents and even those who took them out for holidays or work experience.

In his speech, the Minister said the most important recommendation in the report is that the lessons of the past must be learned. We must never forget what happened. We must ensure that it is never allowed to happen again. I draw the Minister's attention, and that of the House, to three places where there is no independent inspection where children are in State care. First, 213 children are in residential centres for children with intellectual disabilities, yet there is no independent supervision. The Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, is charged with inspecting residential centres for children. However, HIQA does not inspect residential centres for children with intellectual disabilities because the administrative measures required for such inspections to take place have not yet been drawn up. The Ombudsman for Children, Emily Logan, is concerned about this situation and has convened a series of meetings with the Health Information and Quality Authority, the Department of Health and Children and the Minister of State with responsibility for children aimed at speeding up the commencement of independent inspections. We must never let it happen again that there is no independent monitoring of children in State care.

The second place where there is no independent monitoring of children in care is St. Patrick's Institution, which is an adult prison where children are held. There is no effective independent complaints process available to boys detained in St Patrick's Institution. The former Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention, the late Mr. Justice Dermot Kinlen, repeatedly called for an end to the detention of children in St Patrick's Institution. It is a closed, medium security place of detention for males aged from 16 to 21 years of age serving sentences up to life. International human rights treaties, which Ireland has signed, and our amended Children Act 2001, make it clear that children should not be detained together with adults.

Previously, the Ombudsman for Children called for an end to the practice of detaining boys aged 16 and 17 in St Patrick's Institution. Although there is now some degree of separation between those under and over 18 years of age in St Patrick's, the Ombudsman for Children has called for the use of St Patrick's as a place of detention for children to end as soon as possible. This can be changed immediately.

On the day of a visit by the Ombudsman for Children, 50 children were detained in St Patrick's Institution; 16 of them were aged 16 years and 34 were aged 17 years. The children were locked in their cells from 7 p.m. until 8 a.m. They were also locked in their cells for breakfast and supper and lunch was the only communally eaten meal. No open visits were allowed; the children sat on one side of a Perspex panel while their visitors sat on the other. On the day of the Ombudsman for Children's visit, the sound quality in the visiting room was very poor. St Patrick's is an old building and the material conditions of detention are very poor and the poor state of the building and the cell accommodation has been well documented by the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention and the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture.

The third category of children in care who are not subject to independent monitoring is that of separated children living in Ireland. At present, there are approximately 180 separated children under the age of 18 living in Ireland in the care of the HSE. Separated children are children who have come to Ireland without their parents or a guardian. The majority of these are based in the greater Dublin area. While all these children are in the care of the State, only a small number live in HSE-run centres and the majority reside in private hostels which have been contracted by the HSE to provide accommodation for the children. The private accommodation is not subject to any independent inspection. Separated children do not have access to an independent guardian and many separated children do not have regular access to a social worker directly allocated to them.

Every day we have spoken passionately about the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse and the inquiry into sexual abuse in our institutions and reformatory schools. I have just placed on the record three categories of children who are not inspected. This is the very issue we are speaking about. Tens of thousands of children in State care were abused and, today, children can still be abused because we do not have independent monitoring. Unless independent monitoring is put in place we have no guarantee that children are safe in State care today.

To bring the Minister of State up to date, the Seanad has spoken about a cross-party dimension of this report and it is an opportunity for us all to work together to ensure delivery of the 21 recommendations of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. When I read of the Cabinet meeting yesterday and the Taoiseach's statement on implementing the 21 recommendations, my heart lifted. The Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, has been designated to draw up a plan to deliver these 21 recommendations and to show how this will be done. He will have a report in place by the end of July.

The question was asked why this report will be done in July when the Seanad is not sitting. We can sit when the report is published. What is stopping us? We can all attend. I do not know what is the issue about the date. It shows the bureaucratic mentality of the people who raised it as an issue. It is up to everyone to be present on the day when the report of the Minister of State is delivered to the public. It was also drawn to my attention that the Children First guidelines are being reviewed. The recommendations of the report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse and those which will come from the report of the Dublin archdiocese commission on child abuse will be implemented in the Children First guidelines. I thank the Minister of State for his patience and I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I thank the Leader for allowing this discussion to take place so soon after the request from Senator Fitzgerald and myself. It was important to do so. I will begin by looking into the future and I ask the departmental officials present to consider what I say. I will echo a point made by Senator Mary White and put five simple facts on the record. Recently, the Irish Mental Health Commission stated that 247 children are wrongly incarcerated in adult mental institutions throughout the State. The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children reported that last year it took more than 600,000 calls for help but because of a lack of resources it was able to respond to fewer than half of them. Over recent years 360 non-national children were lost by the HSE. They were on the records but now they have vanished and we do not know whether they have absconded, have become sex slaves, were killed or have left the country. Residential homes and institutions for children with intellectual challenges are exempt from inspection but surely of all groups they should be included and Senators White and Corrigan have made this point. There is a current court case — I will not mention any details — concerning the murder of a 14 year old child who was on our list of at-risk children but who was dead for more than a year before anyone thought to look for her. This is how we cherish the children of the nation equally as proclaimed by the Constitution and it is worthwhile putting this on the record prior to stating anything else.

I want to outline a number of issues which are of some importance to me. People may not like what I will state because I will refer to some of the shady and sinister Catholic organisations to which I referred last week. People stated I should say more about them and I am quite happy to do so. Since I came to this House 22 years ago I have lost count of the number of times I have raised and spoken on these issues.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I remember.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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My colleague, Senator Norris, has also done so. I have raised issues from the Kilkenny incest report to the Murphy report in 1998 and all the various matters along the way. I want to put on the record, without fear of contradiction, that every single proposal I ever brought forward on child protection was opposed left, right and centre, and I will provide the House with some examples.

One issue was the Stay Safe programme, a very simple programme to help children and which is in primary schools at present. That is one issue. Sex education programmes is another. Mandatory reporting, referred to earlier by Senator Healy Eames, is another. For six years I called for mandatory reporting in this House until I got tired of doing that. Nobody wanted to know. All I heard were the problems it would create. That was from Governments of all shades, not just one Government. This is an issue that goes across Governments.

I will tell the Minister a story about the Stay Safe programme. The Stay Safe programme was being developed by two women, a psychologist and a medical doctor, for the then Eastern Health Board. The funding for their project was withdrawn through the influence of the Knights of St. Columbanus. I cannot prove that but it has been told to me many times. Those people were left without any support for a hugely important programme.

I recall going to the executive of my union, the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, which would often be criticised for being conservative and careful, and it was one of the proudest days of my membership of that union when the national executive voted £10,000, which was a decent amount of money in the 1980s, to allow those two women finish their programme, which they did. They prepared an excellent programme.

I then went to the Minister of the day, Deputy Mary O'Rourke, and showed her the programme. She said it appeared to be very important and progressive and something in which we should get involved. I asked her if we could do it and she told me she would run into problems in her own Department.

I want to put on record that she and I met with the crucial people. She set up a meeting in her ministerial office, for which she deserves credit, in Marlborough Street. We brought in the most senior person in primary education and the head of psychology in primary education — this is the time before NEPS — and the two women who developed the course. We asked the two women to make the presentation. Having made the presentation and knowing all the problems that would arise we had a discussion on the position. We looked at this man, who was a senior Knight of St. Columbanus and the most senior person in primary education, who had various reservations about the programme. I indicated that I thought it was a very good programme. The Minister for Education asked many searching questions and came to the conclusion that it was a very good programme. The officials highlighted the problems that might arise but the Minister said it was a solid programme to protect children and, to Deputy O'Rourke's credit, she said she wanted it in the schools. It took years for the programme to get into schools but it would never have got into them without her.

Around that time I attended the funeral of one of her parents — I believe it was her mother — in Athlone and I remember noticing afterwards that there was no bishop at the funeral of the mother of a Cabinet Minister. I found that interesting, but the Lenihans were never afraid of taking on the crozier, from the then Minister's grandfather down, and they deserve credit for that.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Senator Norris and myself sat on these benches for debates on an issue Senator Norris has raised three or four times in the past month, that is, the equal status legislation. We have a system where the people who are responsible, the same orders who have not put more money into the kitty, are running schools and hospitals and even if they do not work in the schools or hospitals they decide the teachers and the consultants who get the jobs, with their views being brought to bear on that.

When the Stay Safe sex education programme was being brought forward I was not in Dublin. My three teenage daughters were at home on their own. We live out in the country. I got a call from them and they were hysterical because there was a crowd of weird people picketing our bungalow out in the country. One can imagine the words on the placards, and they were shoving various pictures, imagery and items in bottles at my three daughters. I rang the local gardaí because I could not get back home in time and they went out to my home and put order in the place. They told me who the groups were — Family Solidarity, Youth Defence and three or four others, all people that we knew.

Nobody gave children a chance. When it came to dealing with the issue of mandatory reporting in this House a new concept was discovered. Who remembers the great concept of false memory that was developed by those right-wing Catholic organisations? The way it was proved that children should not be believed was by telling them that what they remembered was not true. Those organisations brought right-wing experts from America here to preach around Ireland that this was false memory, that it was put into the children's heads and that it never happened in all these incidences. I dealt with these issues here on the floor of this House, in my job as the chief executive officer of the INTO and in various other places in life and it is unfair that it should go on.

On the equal status legislation, we fought in this House for what we wanted and did not want in that legislation. It is only right that if Catholic parents want their children to have a Catholic education, they should have an entitlement to that. There should be no problem with that. It is only right that if somebody working in that context tries to undermine that particular ethos, they should have no place there but they were not happy with that. They did not want to wait for any such approval. If they did not like somebody's colour, their sexual orientation or views they might have offered elsewhere, they felt they should not be given the job. We have put into our legislation the right to discriminate in the most unfair way on a ground which should never be accepted.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

3:00 pm

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I will tell the Minister how that applies to other countries. There has been much talk recently about Canada; I made reference to it myself this morning. Some years ago Canada set up an inquiry like the Ryan inquiry, and like the Ryan inquiry a senior judge from the superior courts was appointed to hear all the evidence. That judge was appointed but his appointment was objected to. He was removed from the commission of inquiry because he was a member of the Knights of St. Columbanus.

Can somebody tell me why we as politicians — the Minister, all our colleagues, the Cathaoirleach and myself — have to disclose all that we do in terms of our backgrounds etc.? We have to sign this form and that form. We have to declare an interest if we speak on something here. We have a Government of whatever colour which is committed to openness, transparency and all that goes with that but at the same time secret organisations such as the Knights of St. Columbanus and Opus Dei can do what they want.

I took the trouble to meet with Opus Dei years ago and it is written into their requirements that they should try to impose the beliefs of the organisation on their jobs. I raised the issue here years ago that people being appointed to jobs of sensitivity in areas like the Attorney General's office and others should be asked the question about membership. I still believe that.

I do not believe we did this deal in 2002 without the involvement of the Knights of St. Columbanus. I heard the former Minister, Deputy Michael Woods, say during the week that he is not a member of the Knights of St. Columbanus or Opus Dei. I believe that anybody involved in that deal should be asked that question. Everybody appointed to a senior position in the State should be asked that question.

There is no place in an open, transparent democracy for people who have other agendas. The rest of us must stand up and declare an interest. I had to declare an interest earlier. This afternoon I declared an interest in terms of my INTO background and other matters. It is only right that we should do that to ensure that people know where we are coming from but that does not apply to these people.

I will give the House an example of the way that works. There is a priest in the west, Fr. Kevin Hegarty, who is a curate in a tiny parish as far west as one can go beyond Belmullet. He is a highly erudite, intelligent man with a huge amount to offer. He was editor of a church magazine, Intercom, in the 1990s. He wanted to develop a number of debates at that time, one of which was a debate too far. He wanted a debate on clerical child abuse. For his troubles, he was sacked by Bishop Brendan Comiskey, a man who was to hit the headlines very shortly after that. Bishop Brendan Comiskey was also selected by the Knights of St. Columbanus when they decided to show a more public face to the media. He was a media friendly bishop, and he was their chaplain or whatever.

He then went to Ferns where he dealt with child abuse cases. Before he went to Ferns, to divert slightly, he tried to instigate a boycott of the Irish Press newspapers on the grounds that they were committing blasphemy, a subject which is very topical at the moment. What was the blasphemy? Madonna the singer was expecting a child and a columnist made some comment about that and the Madonna and child icon precious to Christianity. It was a dumb, inappropriate comment but hardly one that should have led to that kind of action but that is what happened in that case.

The same man went to Wexford where he was in charge of all the problems in Monageer. When the Wexford People and the Wicklow People newspapers honestly and openly reported the conviction of a priest there for paedophile activity, he and the Knights of St. Columbanus attempted to boycott the People newspapers. That is on the record. There was also the horrible incident when there was a complaint and an investigation regarding a priest in Monageer having sexually assaulted a child. The priest insisted on doing the First Communion or Confirmation — I cannot remember which — two weeks later. The people appealed to Bishop Cumiskey to stop the priest doing so, but he insisted. This man was up on the altar for the event. It is similar to what Mr. Michael O'Brien described on television during "Questions and Answers". Mr. O'Brien spoke about being assaulted and raped on one night and being offered the sacred host the following morning by the same person. The same issue was involved for the child in Monageer.

That incident was investigated by the local Garda sergeant, who did a very good job. His chief superintendent insisted on getting the files and nothing else happened. Too much time had passed by the time people figured out why the Director of Public Prosecutions had done nothing about it. As a result, the then Garda Commissioner appointed an outside chief superintendent to investigate the matter. He came to the conclusion that the local investigation had been well done but the matter had not been properly brought to a conclusion. The files were lost. The files were in the gift of the chief superintendent who was a senior Knight of St. Columbanus in the area. He retired, received his Benemerenti medal from the Pope and took his secrets to the grave. The priest was never prosecuted and the matter was never brought to a conclusion.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has one minute left.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I am only starting what I wish to say in this debate. There is more involved than just the people we have mentioned. Far worse than the Catholic church are these shady organisations which wield influence behind our backs in ways of which the public is unaware.

I reject calls for balance in this debate. There is no balance. This is about imbalance. It is about power and influence hammering, raping and brutalising young children. There is no balance in that and there never will be. However, I must finish by stating there are decent, good and honourable people in the clergy and the religious orders who have been tainted and hurt by this. We stand by those people. They are good people. There are also Christian organisations, such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Legion of Mary and so forth, which do extraordinarily good work. We should honour them, but there can be no balance about the imbalance in how these children were treated.

Photo of Geraldine FeeneyGeraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Finneran, and thank him for listening to this harrowing and upsetting debate. Everybody who comes to the Chamber today to discuss the report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse does so, like me, with a very heavy heart.

The comments of our colleague, Senator Healy Eames, are pitiful and shameful. She has debased the tone of the debate. I come to this debate bereft of politics; I am not wearing political colours. I do not believe anybody should wear a political hat when we debate this report. What Senator Healy Eames has done in her comments is not what the victims would desire or deserve. I will not lower my standards by attacking, but I wish to put on the record that I am absolutely appalled by what she said today. I remind the Senator of the "Questions and Answers" programme last Monday night, when Mr. Michael O'Brien, a former Fianna Fáil councillor, rightly criticised the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, the Government and the Fianna Fáil Party. He also reminded Deputy Leo Varadkar to give the message to Deputy Enda Kenny that he should not play politics with this issue. I ask Senator Healy Eames not to play politics with the matter and not to debase the tone of the debate further than she has done.

I am a mother of four children and I would do time if anybody put a finger on any of them, let alone raped, buggered, pillaged and robbed them of their childhood and early adolescence. I would gladly do time if they were touched in any way. I cannot imagine what I would do if somebody interfered with them in the manner outlined in this report. I congratulate and commend Justice Sean Ryan and his team. It must have been an awfully difficult couple of years hearing this terrible evidence. I sat on the Medical Council which inquired into the caesarian hysterectomies carried out by Dr. Michael Neary. I was the only woman on a five-person committee and the only lay person. I had to read a sheet of paper five or six times to absorb how horrible the incidents were for the young women who were robbed of their wombs.

This report is a million times worse. The sad aspect of this is that for the 2,000 people who went before the commission, there must be another 2,000 persons whose stories we have not heard. The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, warned the public two weeks ago about this terrible report. If he had spent a month telling us how bad it would be, he could never have prepared us for it. I have only read the summary version. There are five volumes in the report and it would take months if not a year to read them and absorb their gravity. I hope this is the first of many debates on the report. One debate, with Senators getting ten or 15 minutes to speak, will not bring comfort or closure for the victims. We must talk about this report for a long time.

What can I say about the €1.8 million deal? It was wrong. The bill is now €1.3 billion. It is time the clergy and the religious orders stepped up to the mark. Can they blame the Irish public when it turns away from the church and religion? If they want anybody to stay in the church, they must step up to the mark and meet their responsibilities. As Michael O'Brien and other victims said, this is not, and never was, about money, it is about somebody saying: "Yes, we abused you; we were wrong and should not have done it; we apologise." A few nights ago the Taoiseach said the Government was sorry that it did not detect the children's pain or intervene to protect them. He was probably too young to know of these institutions and might not even remember them.

I grew up in Tullamore, County Offaly, and Daingean is only eight miles from there. I grew up with the word "reformatory". I did not know what a reformatory was but I knew it was not a nice place. I was a teenager in the mid-1970s and youth clubs were starting to become popular. I regularly went to a youth club in Tullamore. On a Friday night once a month a bus came from Daingean reformatory bringing young boys of my age for what we called a "hop". One would turn one's eyes away from the Tullamore lads because one wanted the good looking lads from Daingean reformatory. I have thought a great deal about those young fellows who were the same age as me, getting back on the bus after a great night in Tullamore, going back into that reformatory and what must have awaited them behind those dark walls. I know no more about them than that, but they are on my mind. I keep thinking, if only someone had said something. They did, but no one listened.

It is time the religious orders stepped up to the plate. The spokesperson on "Morning Ireland" yesterday was Sr. Marianne O'Connor, who I believe is a Sligo woman and an Ursuline sister. I live in Sligo with my four children. Her comments left a lot to be desired. I felt she was still trying to protect the interests of the religious congregations. She did great damage. I do not blame her; she is a spokesperson. It was a collective statement. However, she alienated people even more in their views of the religious congregations. I am glad those same congregations have woken up to the reality. It was public opinion that shook them and woke them up.

I welcome what the Taoiseach had to say last night when he called on them to shape up. Yesterday I asked that they would not be brought kicking and screaming and that they would give what they should to this. It is not about money and resources are scarce. As someone said in the House yesterday if the religious congregations do not pay up, although I believe they will, the Government will need to resort to using its funds to look after those who have suffered from what happened while the abusers get away with it. I am glad to see the Oblates, who ran the reformatory school in Daingean, the Sisters of Mercy and the Christian Brothers have come out to confirm they will step up to the mark and pay their fair share, and rightly so.

Like Senator O'Toole, I hope we will have more time to debate this matter. I am somewhat emotional today. One could not but be emotional given the gravity of the issue. One would need a heart of stone not to be touched by the pages I have read. One of the recommendations is to ensure a child-centred approach is taken and the voice of the child is heard in the development and implementation of policy.

There was a terrible case in Sligo a number of years ago. Everybody remembers the story of Sophia McColgan and her terrible family situation, living with her father. He has since served his time and has been released. Those children were not listened to and were turned away. Everyone they approached told them they were making up the stories. We need to ensure this will never happen again. With the level of public outcry, we will never let it happen again.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State. The 18 religious orders implicated in the report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse ought to be ashamed of the awful treatment meted out to children in their care. There was rape, buggery, physical attacks, assaults, neglect and emotional exploitation. The term "child abuse" is not adequate to define what happened to these poor children. The scale of it is beyond belief, as is the fact that it was so pervasive and systemic. I found it very difficult to read this report on the monstrous behaviour by people in positions of authority and trust. It was perpetrated by so-called pillars of society. Those involved included the Christian Brothers, the Rosminians, the Presentation Brothers, the Brothers of Charity, the Sisters of Mercy, the Sisters of Charity, the Dominican nuns, the Daughters of the Cross of Liège and others.

The victims were young boys and girls, the majority of whom were from poorer families. Special needs children were especially vulnerable. Children with impaired mobility and communication deficits were seen by the perpetrators as easy targets. Deaf, dumb and blind children were at a complete disadvantage. It happened in industrial and reformatory schools, children's homes, hospitals, national schools, secondary schools, day and residential special needs schools, foster care, laundries and hostels.

Many people were aware of it. Society, both official and unofficial, was aware of it and many people will now have to live with their conscience as to why they did or said nothing. I am talking about Government inspectors, gardaí, teachers, and general practitioners. Local people were employed in these places. Local businesses were supplying goods and services. Health boards, the Department of Education as it was known then, priests of the parishes, parents and relatives all had knowledge to a greater or lesser extent and no action was taken.

Of the 1,090 men and women who gave evidence, 90% reported physical abuse which was both casual and random. There were reports of flogging, kicking, scalding and burnings. Some children were held under water. Some 50% reported sexual abuse which consisted of rape, buggery, molestation and voyeurism. Neglect consisted of inadequate food, clothing, heating. There were also untreated injuries and medical conditions which continue to this day. Children were being starved and neglected.

Let us consider the emotional side. There was no attachment, affection or family contact. There was separation from siblings. Several children were told their parents were dead when in fact they were not. There was humiliation and constant criticism of children. All this is shocking stuff even to contemplate or imagine, let alone to read in the understanding it is fact.

There was utter failure on the part of the State through the then Department of Education which failed to monitor and control the units. It had a certification role in which it miserably failed. There were too few inspectors and the scope of the inspections was too limited. All inspections were announced in advance making it very easy to pass such inspections. The inspectors were aware of the abuse and the inadequate education that was being provided. They had ample legal powers which were never exercised. The Department never thought of changing the system. The main problem was that the Department and the inspectors showed too much deference to the religious congregations, thereby facilitating the abuse. Society as a whole showed too much deference to religious at the time. Thankfully that is changed a great deal today.

Many, but thankfully not all, the victims have had to carry the effects with them through adult life. Unfortunately, many did not survive to adult life. I knew some who fell into that category. There was poverty, social isolation, alcoholism, mental illness, sleep problems, self-harm and aggressive behaviour as a result. Many had relationship problems.

What are the lessons? It goes without saying that something like this cannot happen again. It must not be allowed to happen again. The disappointing thing about the whole period and episode is that standards, systems and guidelines were in place which, if implemented, could have prevented much of what is contained in the report. However, the systems, policies and management all failed the children. There was far too much deference to the authority of the Catholic church, as was apparent in many aspects of life in Ireland during the period these vile events were taking place.

Deference to anything or anyone must now be consigned to history. I know as a parent that recent generations, thankfully, are incapable of such deference. Children must now be put first and all supports for children must be properly resourced. All child care guidelines must be put on a statutory basis. There must be a legal responsibility to report abuse or even a suspicion of abuse. Where there is even a whisper of abuse, it must be reported. The State must never abdicate its responsibility to children again. Control measures must be put in place and adequately funded. Effective monitoring and audit systems are essential elements of all this. We must introduce whistleblower legislation as a matter of urgency. The need for that has been obvious for some time in other matters.

Deference to the church was a reality at the time and is the only possible explanation for the failure of the Department and its inspectors. That said, I cannot accept it as an excuse. There is ample evidence in the report that the religious congregations were aware of the problems in their institutions. It is unforgivable that it was allowed to continue. It appears their only motivation was to avoid scandal in order that they could maintain their elevated status in society at the time. While they were prepared to report lay persons to the Garda, they were not prepared to do the same if one of their own was perpetrating the abuse. Instead, they moved them around in the full knowledge that they would continue with their vile behaviour. The Ryan commission report contains ample evidence that this practice occurred. Whereas no regard was shown for the safety of children, protection was always provided for perpetrators at both local and diocesan level.

I compliment the witnesses on their bravery in coming forward and giving evidence to the commission. One can only imagine what they endured as children and in many cases continue to endure as adults, as we heard from Mr. Michael O'Brien on "Questions & Answers" on Monday night. I hope the victims get some relief now that their stories have been vindicated.

I urge the Government to implement the recommendations of the Ryan commission in full and as speedily as possible, irrespective of the cost. The Labour Party is of the view that the religious orders must accept responsibility for what took place and must pay more. For this reason, while proposals emerging from several of these institutions in recent days are to be welcomed, we must suspend judgment until we are clear on the details.

I congratulate Mr. Justice Sean Ryan on the fine work he and his team have carried out.

Photo of Maria CorriganMaria Corrigan (Fianna Fail)
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As colleagues have noted, this is probably one of the most distressing debates to have been held in the Seanad Chamber. I am pleased, however, to have an opportunity to make a contribution to the debate. Before doing so, I place on record that I have a professional association with a religious organisation.

First and foremost, the Ryan report is about little children who had their childhoods savagely taken from them. These victims of rape, injury, torture and humiliation were condemned to forever pay a price for actions for which they had not one whit of responsibility. The price they must pay has resulted in shattered lives and has left a legacy of never-ending pain, torment, hurt and anger. Life is precious and we have only one shot at it.

Of all the tragic chapters in Ireland's history, the Ryan report is testament to one of the saddest and most shameful. Words are not sufficient to pay tribute to the courage of those who came forward to speak out and tell their stories. One cannot read the Ryan report without feeling the start of a deep burn of shame underneath the sadness, horror and anger. The behaviour of some members of the religious orders responsible for the care of young babies and children was abhorrent and criminal. Terrifying in its depravity, cruelty and lack of humanity, it betrayed the trust of people and violated the Christian principles by which the church instructs us to live. This behaviour has tarnished the good work done by many religious people.

The debate that emerged in recent days regarding reopening the agreement with the religious orders has inflicted another hurt on those who have already suffered and it should not have been necessary. Organisations such as the religious orders which frequently hold out to us the right thing to do should have known immediately what was the right thing to do and they should have done it. In this respect, I acknowledge the courage of Father Tim Bartlett in speaking out on the issue and the subsequent statements by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin and Cardinal Seán Brady. This debate should not have been necessary.

While the focus in recent days has been on the religious orders, we cannot allow ourselves to be distracted from our culpability, responsibility and shame. The Ryan report is a concrete testament to and acknowledgement of the suffering of the children who resided in the institutions covered in the inquiry. We must keep in mind those whose lives were so shattered by their experiences that they were too broken or debilitated to tell their story. The report is important for them also and, as the Minister of State pointed out, we must also remember those who are no longer with us.

The strength of public resolve following the publication of the Ryan report is such that we have an opportunity to make meaningful reparations to those who have suffered. The focus of such reparations must be on people rather than money and any future plan emerging from the report must be people led. We must do everything in our power to ensure the victims have the best possible quality of life from now on in order that they can achieve the best possible level of well-being. Most important, we must support them to find some degree of peace from the torment that will forever be with them.

I welcome the commitment to implement in full the recommendations of the Ryan report. When the relevant plan has been drawn up I ask that it be first presented to the victims and, thereafter, to the Oireachtas. If necessary, a special sitting of the Houses should be arranged. That is the least people deserve from us, their representatives.

I welcome the appointment of a deputy Garda commissioner to ensure criminal charges are pursued. The crimes described in the Ryan report were carried out on children who were vulnerable and whose vulnerability seems to have had at its root poverty, broken homes or families who had experienced the death of a parent. Today, we still have vulnerable children in our midst, although the reasons for their vulnerability may be different. I welcome the commitment that we will learn from this report and apply this learning to ensure such events do not occur again.

While I do not want to repeat what my colleagues said, we must grasp the opportunity to do something concrete and meaningful. We have an opportunity to create a positive legacy to the Ryan report, one which will owe its creation to the courage of those who told their stories.

I propose to raise a number of issues, including a number that will require changes in legislation, structures, supports and mindsets. While I am aware that other issues also arise, I will focus on a number of specific matters while the Minister of State is present. As I and many other Senators have stated on many occasions, we have in place a most peculiar arrangement whereby residential facilities for children with disabilities are exempt from inspection. This exemption is unacceptable and intolerable. While I welcome the steps taken by the Health Information and Quality Authority in establishing an inspectorate, inspections for residential facilities for children with disabilities must be introduced as quickly as possible.

The Ryan report noted that industrial schools continued here after our nearest neighbours in Britain had moved away from institutional care settings and towards placement in family homes. The lesson we can learn from that experience is that institutional and formal residential settings should be the place of absolute last resort for a child. Our priority should be to ensure the placement of children in family settings because we know such settings are much more conducive the development and well-being of children.

Some welcome legislative changes have been introduced in recent years. For example, children are now supported in giving evidence and testifying in cases of abuse. An issue remains, however, regarding the implementation of these supports for children with disabilities. I ask that this matter be addressed as quickly as possible.

Dual placement is the practice whereby children are placed in various settings with adults. It occurs in psychiatric institutions, prisons, as Senator Mary White pointed out, and some institutions for people with disabilities. While I accept the number of such institutions is decreasing, children with disabilities continue to be placed in institutions alongside adults.

While I am conscious we are discussing children, another vulnerable group within society for whom there would be similar concerns and issues is adults with disabilities or mental health challenges or who have acquired an age related illness. No inspectorate is in place for any of the residential settings for these people and I ask that this be addressed as quickly as possible.

I welcome the commitment to implement the guidelines regarding allegations of abuse. When it comes to their implementation in the case of vulnerable adults, especially those with an intellectual disability or mental health challenges, as demonstrated by the most recent report from Tipperary, there are considerable challenges and concerns as to how to proceed. Sometimes the nature of disability and the concerns about reliability, capacity and credibility can result in delays and confusion on how best to proceed when allegations are made which results in vulnerable adults being left increasingly vulnerable.

Residential facilities for children under the care of the HSE, including non-national children and especially those who are unaccompanied minors, are exempt from inspection. There is the issue of more than 300 children missing from the care of the HSE. We need procedures in place to follow this up. We need to know where these children are and whether they are safe.

We need to look at the reunification procedures in place for unaccompanied minors. They are not in the best interests of the safety of the children. We need to send out a message on female genital mutilation. I ask that we would get confirmation from church leaders that no member of a religious organisation who has been the subject of an allegation has been reassigned to a Third World country for missionary work.

All our schools are public schools. We need to tighten up on the procedures for substitute teachers. Not only must they be qualified, we must never allow a situation whereby a substitute teacher who has not been the subject of a Garda check can take a class of children by himself or herself. Unfortunately, that is the situation at present.

Following the publication of the report I am sure there are people experiencing shame and anguish who knew or who had an inkling of what was happening but who, for whatever reason, were ineffective in their intervention or perhaps made no intervention. It is essential for the future that we put in place a clear mechanism for alerting people to what constitutes abuse and where or who they can contact if they have concerns. The shame initiated by this report shouts of the onus on each of us to ensure we play a role in maximising the protection of children.

Photo of Nicky McFaddenNicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, to the House for this harrowing debate. It is a shame we must have it in the first place.

I listened to Senator Corrigan's contribution and I compliment her on the way she spoke with such heartfelt compassion for people who have been abused. When she spoke of people who had intervened, it made me question whether people had listened, and I suppose the kernel of the issue is whether anyone listened. The shame of the matter is that people in authority did not listen.

Senator Brendan Ryan named some of the organisations and they rang hollow in my mind. When I was thinking of the Brothers of Charity and the Sisters of Mercy, I asked myself what mercy was shown.

The Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs heard a presentation today from the eminent Fr. Seán Healy and Sr. Brigid Reynolds, representatives of CORI. They spoke about the heartache they were feeling as individuals and the pain and the anger they have felt with their colleagues. They spoke of the horror of the matters which they were having to discuss at the committee. They wanted to clear up for the committee that their organisation was not part of the congregations involved and that they still represent, on a social and justice vein, all the organisations but were not there to speak for the 18 congregations. That is important to put on the record because we cannot tar every religious organisation or person with the same brush.

I, too, welcome that a Garda deputy commissioner has been appointed so that these thugs will be brought to justice and will get the sentences they deserve for the brutality they brought to bear on little children.

Senator Healy Eames spoke about mandatory reporting. Only last week it was brought to my attention where a little child had been interfered with. Only for the good Stay Safe programme that child would not have been able to communicate the inappropriate behaviour. That child went through all the various channels — the social worker channel and the Garda channel. It was eventually found that a cousin had also been interfered with and that little child had learning difficulties. However, he also had been through the Stay Safe programme and he was able to speak about what was a secret and what was not a secret, and that the behaviour was inappropriate. Alas, the only Garda unit in the country able to deal with little children like this, even though they were priority one, was not available for two weeks. I found that extraordinary when there were two children of the one family who were being abused, had been interfered with and had reported to all the correct channels. To add insult to injury, the perpetrator then took his own life. This happened only last week.

While we speak of what happened in the past, I spoke about collective responsibility the other day. What I meant by that is there is an onus on people such as us and those in power such as the Department of Education and Science, the Judiciary and the medical profession to protect little children, and we badly need that legislation. Senator O'Toole spoke about cherishing the children and, indeed, I used those words last week in the Seanad. There is so little protection for children.

Because this has been such a highlighted topic in the past week it is an issue which has been discussed as I canvass throughout my constituency. Many people are telling their own stories. One woman told me about the cruelty man, which is what the man who was supposedly coming from what is now the ISPCC was called. In fact, he was coming to take children from their families. We all heard from Mr. Michael O'Brien that he and his seven siblings, including his sister as young as a month old, were taken from their mother and put into this institution and he was only two days there when he was raped. It is beyond words. To add insult to injury, this cruelty man got £9 per child for lifting these little children from their parents and from their family home. I cannot comprehend it.

Then there is the issue of the lives they led when they were in these homes. We heard Ms Christine Buckley during the week on television and on radio. She spoke about children being tied to their pots and left for hours, going to bed hungry and being forced to make rosary beads that made money for their organisations. They were not taught how to read and write. Will the laundry system that was run by the various religious organisations, of which there was one in my town, be investigated?

I was educated by the Sisters of Mercy and was a boarder at Summerhill in Athlone. I received a great education and the sisters cared for us as young women. They were feminists ahead of their time. They cared about us culturally, academically and spiritually. For this reason, I find it difficult to reconcile that experience with the abuse and cruelty that occurred elsewhere during the same century. The likes of Colm O'Gorman, Michael O'Brien and Christine Buckley spoke openly and honestly of their personal tragedies to prevent a recurrence and to ensure we deal with the issue now. It is not just a question of the organisations apologising. Rather, the congregations should ask the 170,000 abused children for forgiveness. The way in which they have apologised is not realistic. As other Senators have said, this is not a question of money.

Initially in the 1990s, people were not believed that this was occurring, but we now know of the outrageous Kilkenny case, the Kelly Fitzgerald case in County Mayo, the McColgan case and a recently discovered case in County Roscommon. These situations were allowed to occur despite our priding ourselves on being a caring community. An underlying cruelty and abuse persists. Shame on the Department of Education and Science, the State, the medical profession, the Judiciary and others who allowed this situation. Children went to hospitals battered and bruised but people turned a blind eye. If anything is to come of the report, it is that we should own up and allow the 170,000 people and their families the opportunity of healing.

I heard a story recently of a lady in her 60s who could not stop crying. She reared a lovely family and she had a loving husband but she cried everyday. Her family could not understand what was wrong with her. She had never told anyone she had been in an orphanage where the children had been abused. She later visited the orphanage. The building was still there but the congregation had moved on. With the help of a good counsellor and her family's support, she was able to move on. This must be done for each of the 170,000 people in question. To move on and deal with their heartache and sorrow, they must be given space, love and compassion.

Photo of Ann OrmondeAnn Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House to listen to our contributions on this awful subject. I also welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. It was heartbreaking to read the details of the savage abuse meted out to defenceless children who had been in the organisations' care for years and to whose assistance no one came. They were hidden, ignored, rejected and denied simple rights. The abusers took advantage of the children's vulnerability. Apathy reigned and nothing was done until the abused acted.

The report is compelling. One must read it, even though it is stomach churning. I can only take so much of it before having to put it down again. It is too disturbing. The religious orders are debased and have a long journey ahead of them if they are to recover. The trust and confidence in the orders have gone. They have given an apology, but the first lesson they must learn is that words are cheap.

The "Questions & Answers" programme was disturbing, and listening to Michael O'Brien was difficult. However, I am glad his story came out on the programme because it recognised the torture those children went through. Nothing will ever make up for lost childhoods and family lives, the inability to love and be loved, the lack of education and decades of unrecognised abuse, but we have all seen it now.

Having said all that, having been a boarder for five years and with an aunt who was a nun, I must spare a thought for the good ones, namely, the thousands of honourable and decent brothers and nuns who are being tarred with the same brush as the abusers. Those who have brought about this debasement of Ireland must be brought to justice.

The Government can show its commitment to the children by implementing the report's recommendations. Attention has been centred on the 2002 agreement. There is no option but to revisit it, although I do not know how. I am glad the Taoiseach and our two leading religious individuals, Cardinal Brady and Archbishop Martin, have made their criticisms known and stated there is no going back, but where will we go from here? It was a dark age in society.

As legislators, we will play our part. The lessons are stark, awful and eerie, but we must acknowledge the failures of the State and the congregations in terms of the system, policies, management and administration.

Where do we go from here? I welcomed yesterday's special meeting and I am glad that a process has started. We must respond to the abuses outlined in the report. I welcome that the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, has been authorised to analyse the current situation, produce a plan for implementation and put resources in place. The timespan for implementation is the key to this.

The recommendations must be analysed. I have not read them all but I have extracted a few. They refer to providing counselling and education services. I have become allergic to the word "counselling". I do not like it. We do not want an approach where a counsellor is provided for these people who have suffered such traumatic abuse who asks them whether they would like to tell him or her all about themselves.

There should be an infrastructure of professional people, starting with public health nurses, teachers at pre-primary level and social welfare personnel, who will also be qualified. All these people should also be qualified counsellors because one cannot isolate the issue. There has to be a global approach when dealing with this colossal problem. The public health nurse is the key person because he or she is in the family home from the day a child is born. He or she visits every family and has a nose for knowing what is going on in any part or area of society. Such people should be given a key role, along with educationalists. There must be co-ordination between Departments. Independent personnel should make unannounced investigations to look at and assess situations at any given time.

These are simple, small measures, but one can get it right by having three or four main points. There are more than 20 very good recommendations in the report. I have no difficulty with them, but three or four of them should be set out which will determine the course of action from the time a child is born in terms of family background and back-up services.

One should pick up what is happening. Abuse will not go away; it is a part of life. While we should be aware of that, we must stamp it out none the less. I am glad the congregations have closed these reformatory schools because we should no longer give them a role. We should not have given a role to people who had no training and should never have been in the orders. They should not have been out in society. I do not know why they went into such congregations in the first place. Perhaps it was because in the past one's job was to become a Christian Brother or whatever. Perhaps that was the way it was. That said, such people had no training or background and frustration was coming out of every part of their body.

All that must go. We must have trained people who are balanced. The people we are talking about were not balanced. It is extraordinary we had such people around us in society. They should have been banned from society. I am ashamed the congregations were dealing with these situations while at the same time pontificating in churches on how we, as individuals, should behave.

I spoke to a woman during a canvass recently who told me she would not go to church any more. I do not want that either because that is the other extreme. However, I can see how society would react in this way.

There should be four or five key points to be dealt with, starting with when a child in born, looking at the infrastructure and family background, which will tell a great deal, and having trained people who can pick up on situations very quickly. If we get it right and have trained personnel in place to help children at two, three or four years of age, we will have covered a lot of ground.

4:00 pm

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I grateful to the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, for staying in the House, because I know he is under considerable pressure. I wanted him to be here because I want to ask him, directly and personally, to take particular action today. I know there is support within his own party, on this side of the House and from many professionals for a motion I raised this morning, and will continue to raise, to re-examine the exemptions granted to all the churches from the operation of equality legislation.

I tabled the motion before this report and in light of the Ferns and Cloyne reports. We had the Laffoy report and now have the Ryan report, and it is getting worse all the time. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, who is a decent man and a man of integrity, has said there is more to come in the report on what happened in the Dublin archdiocese. In light of what has happened, it is not appropriate to put the very people who have perpetrated criminal acts above the operation of the law. If that is what we are prepared to continue to tolerate in this House, every syllable said here today is nothing other than meaningless, sentimental waffle that patronises and condemns more people to the same kind of thing.

I will put a very immediate and practical example on the record. Last Saturday I attended, with the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Barry Andrews, a man for whom I have the highest respect and is a decent man and a man of integrity, a meeting of a group called BeLonG To who were opening a new office. It is a group of young gay people who campaigned and succeeded in getting a Fianna Fáil Government to authorise the issuing of posters about homophobic bullying in schools. In school, 80% of bullying contains some homophobic element and 80% is never dealt with because the teachers are afraid as a result of this exemption. At that meeting in the centre of Dublin, a 16 year old who is a pupil in a Christian Brothers school told how, during the previous week, the authorities in his school had forced him to take down the posters which would have defended young people against the operation of prejudice and bullying.

We have heard in the House about the ethos that needs to be defended. What is the ethos that needs to be defended? This was not a couple of rotten apples. It was endemic, systematic and took place over a long period, so one can ask what the ethos was. It consisted of the exploitation of children for financial reward, sexual pleasure and sadistic purposes. There is case after case. It has brought Ireland into contempt and that is why we need to do something about it.

What is the ethos? We all read the report. We heard people on the radio. Members of the religious fixed a small boy between the two halves of a window, pinioned him down in the sashes and then anally raped him. A brave, courageous, elected Fianna Fáil politician and former mayor of Clonmel said he was beaten and raped, and the next day had the sacred host placed in his mouth by the people who had done this to him.

We spoke a little in the House about blasphemy. I would like to know, is that not blasphemy? How can such people describe themselves as Christian Brothers? Do not talk to me about our culpability, our shame or our responsibility. I have none of it. I did none of those things. I do not see why I should be required to support these orders financially, when they are trying to weasel out of the situation. I do not see why an old age pensioner should have tax money taken from them. I most certainly do not see why the victims of abuse, because they pay tax, should be forced to finance their own rehabilitation.

It is obscene for the religious orders to dare to suggest they are in a position to offer counselling. How many of the victims have said one of the worst things that happened to them was to have to sit in court, sometimes right beside the people who had abused them? Does the Minister of State really think that someone who has been abused and violated needs to be counselled by agents of the very forces that inflicted this upon them?

When we have a balanced debate, these are the things we need to consider. I ask the Minister of State to go back to his colleagues and ask for the business of the Equality Authority to be re-examined. It is very clear the exemption should be removed. Taxpayers pay the wages in the schools concerned. We must also consider the fact that in some circumstances the largest hospitals in the State are directed and controlled by members of religious orders whose ethos is questionable. For example, I raised a case previously in the House about where life-preserving cancer treatment with experimental drugs was denied by an ethics committee. There was interference by secret groups such as the Order of the Knights of St. Columbanus and Opus Dei. We all know that.

I seem to have been accused this morning of being anti-Catholic. I do not believe I am because I spoke out about abuse, not just in Catholic schools but in Protestant schools. I painfully placed on the record that I had the experience not of being sexually abused but of being physically abused for a while. I hardly like to say this but a very close family member was violently abused in an upper class Protestant boarding school. While I was in that school the boy next to me, who also had a dysfunctional background and wet the bed, had his nose rubbed in it every single day. He was exposed to the contempt and ridicule of other students until he ran away and was killed by a motor car. There was no inquiry in that case. I have said those things. I do not think I am anti-Catholic. I have been very fair in what I have said but I cannot see how what occurs could be covered by Christianity.

I am a gay man.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is no news, David.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I do not think that comes as any great surprise to people in this House. I saw one of the "Reeling in the Years" programmes last year that was looking back approximately 25 years. I was then making a dignified but passionate plea to change the criminal law on homosexuality. Sitting behind me was a plump, smug, self-important priest who showered me with contempt and abuse. It was only last year after the events that took place that I realised who he was. Fellow Senators, that was Fr. Seán Fortune, who at that time was raping children in his own diocese of Ferns, but I was the outcast, not that man. If we really wish to be sincere, it is time to do something to stop more children being attacked.

There is a very good article by Justine McCarthy in a Sunday newspaper. She said: "They lied. They stole. They terrorised. They assaulted children. They manacled them." They sexually assaulted them. There is a catalogue of such actions. Who were "they"? The article continued:

Throughout it all, they — and the whole world — thought they were holy men and women.

Children were made to lie in bed at night with their arms piously crossed over their chests. When they slipped out of this position unconsciously in their sleep, they were woken up and beaten. Holy men came into the dormitories at night, sometimes two at a time, and put their private parts in the children's hands and in their mouths.

Was that not blasphemy?

On the issue of where the responsibility lies, I deny any responsibility. I spoke out, although it caused me pain as a teenager and adolescent. I continued to speak out. I have spoken out not just about the Roman Catholic authorities but about the whole situation of bullying because it is the principle that motivated me. I defy anyone to say I am anti-Catholic. I want this matter to be addressed. I am horrified by the approach of some people who should now be covered in shame. I refer to people such as Deputy Woods who thinks we should be glad the taxpayer is liable. Why? He says the State is responsible. He was negotiating on behalf of the State and yet he appeared to be more in the pockets of the church. In my opinion the victims were betrayed.

One or two people in the Judiciary, such as Judge McCarthy, was more sensitive to the needs of those people who were brought before him. What was the result? A member of the Government of the day, Mr. Gerry Boland, tried to have him sacked for being too lenient and easy. That is the kind of mentality of the person who wrote a letter to The Irish Times saying most of those people were thugs. A dignified 76 year old woman wrote back who was put into care at the age of two. She got a criminal record for being abandoned when she was two years old. That is appalling.

I appeal to the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney. I know it will be difficult, but he is a man of principle, integrity and courage and if he wants to avoid further damage in that clear area I have outlined, he should not allow what I saw not two years ago nor 20 years ago but last Saturday, when a brave young man stood up and said he was forced by the Christian Brothers to take down posters against homophobic bullying.

Photo of John MoloneyJohn Moloney (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Am I allowed to add a point of information?

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of John MoloneyJohn Moloney (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have two points to make. Although I do not have responsibility for the matter under discussion I wish to respond to two points. As Minister of State with responsibility for disability issues, I attended a recent Inclusion Ireland conference. I was asked a question from the floor about State supervision and inspection. At the time I said I could not make a commitment on the issue. In the light of what has emerged in recent days I consider it necessary for me to re-examine the matter and to see whether I can make changes in that regard.

I wish to respond to Senator Norris, this time wearing my hat of Minister of State with responsibility for equality issues. I do not say this by way of pretence just to get through the door. I give him a serious commitment to re-examine the exemption clause, especially in light of what has occurred in recent days. I will not hide behind legal jargon. I intend to test the issue of why the advice was followed. For the sake of the record of the House, I do not for a second believe Senator Norris is anti-Catholic. In fact, I think the opposite.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, may I respond to what the Minister of State said about what was said a few weeks ago?

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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No, with all due respect the Senator cannot do that.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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I raised the matter on the Order of Business this morning. I am pleased to hear what the Minister of State said.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I will not allow that now.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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I hope it will be included in the Government recommendations.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I very much welcome the Minister of State's commitment.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris gave a passionate speech in which he raised a number of issues. The fact that there is a prohibition on posters speaking out against homophobic behaviour by school students in religious institutions is another example of how the abuse is continuing to some degree.

One can but wonder who is leading those 18 religious orders because they are so out of touch. I spoke yesterday about the fact that regardless of whether they knew it then, they would have to bear a bigger share of the burden of the €1.3 billion in compensation. Senators spoke yesterday about whether the cost should be split on a 50:50 basis, given that the State is equally culpable in that it sent the children to the schools, it did not police the schools when the abuse was brought to its attention and it covered it up. For that reason the State must pay its share. The religious orders have not yet handed over the properties they were supposed to hand over as part of the agreement.

The fact that at this time the State is responsible for the lion's share of the €1.3 billion means the religious orders are continuing the abuse because those funds could be used to help the vulnerable today, such as those children who are in need or who need to be taken into care. The funds should be used for such purposes but because we have to pay for the sins of the past we cannot help people in the present. The religious institutions are insisting they have done a deal and they will not renegotiate it. By the end of the week I am sure they will all have seen the errors of their ways.

What annoys me more than anything else is not that we had so many who were perpetrating these crimes but that there was a huge cover up. Who knew what, when did they know it and why did they say nothing? For every abuser, there were thousands who remained silent. They may not have participated, they may not helped in any way, but their silence was a help. As we know from working here, when one is working in one place the stories go around and one hears the rumours, yet they all stay silent. Those who were brave enough to speak out, and the sad fact is these people were few and far between, they too were punished by their orders. They were sent abroad or on punishment details in their institutions. Those who perpetrated crimes were also moved on as soon as reports came through about them.

How is it that we did not know about these things in this country? Investigations into child abuse in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand pointed out that the Christian Brothers and Irish religious orders were the main protagonists. They were singled out by judicial investigations in South Africa. Why did we not wonder if that was happening here? There was a headline on France 24 last night about the Irish sex abuse scandal, and it makes one think about how this is replicated around the world. Our shame as a country is deserved because when we knew it, we ignored it.

I remember launching a book on the Kerry Rape and Sexual Abuse Centre five years ago, which was an organisation starved of funds. It is still starved of funds today and 0.1% of that €1.3 billion would help the centre to help those who are now going to revisit their terrible past. For the 15,000 victims of whom we are aware, there are probably ten times that number who were sexually or physically abused. While it might be possible to bury it for a time, it cannot be buried forever. This publicity, which will no doubt go on for weeks and months, will bring the past to life for all those who never spoke about it to anyone. Regarding the religious orders offering support, it is difficult to imagine who would take help from those who not only supplied the abuser, but also ensured the abuser was never prosecuted. This is the big question that faces us.

It is not about the money. When €1.3 billion is divided between all the victims, it is small money. It is a small token that will not do much. All the money should be spent on counselling because these people will need it. When one thinks of all the money that will be diverted to pay off those victims, then that is the tragedy. We are looking at a church that covered it up. As a result of all the abuse, those victims turned to alcohol as a crutch. Many of them committed suicide. As an institution, the Roman Catholic Church as good as killed these people. By not informing the police and by not bringing to justice those who perpetrated the crimes, they as good as killed them.

People have referred to these institutions as concentration camps and spoken about the Holocaust. The one thing about the Holocaust was that the German people denied and claimed they did not know. However, everyone heard the rumours, even in a society that was covered by wartime propaganda. In a country with a free press, people knew but they did not want to know.

I remember a case that came to light a few years ago. I was sitting or standing at the back of a church — I do not go up to the front — and I looked at the priest and wondered whether he would stay silent as well if my niece or nephew were in harm's way. If he knew of a priest who was sexually abusing children in a school that my niece or nephew attended, would that priest stay silent? Would he be like all those other people in the religious orders who stayed silent when they knew about someone in their order who was abusing children? That is fundamentally unfair to those great priests who have done gone great work. They face an enormous burden today because the collective guilt, perpetrated by many through either the abuse itself or the silence of those who knew, is a shame shared by all in each of those institutions.

For all the great work done by CORI and for all the errors it pointed out that were made by the Government in protecting the vulnerable, any statement it makes from now on is not worth the paper it is written on. This is because its response has been appalling. CORI's members knew this report was coming for the past ten years. They knew the extent of the abuse a long time before we did. They had all the files. They tried to stop us getting them, so they knew the extent of the abuse, yet they still lectured politicians on how we should treat the most vulnerable. When they were given the protection of the most vulnerable, they committed the most heinous crimes, and their silence was possibly the worst crime.

Photo of Ciarán CannonCiarán Cannon (Progressive Democrats)
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I would like to share my time with Senator Cummins.

I am 43 years of age and I do not recall in my lifetime a greater veil of shame, horror, angst and despair descending upon this country as a result of what we have heard over recent days. The contribution by Mr. O'Brien on Monday night on RTE laid bare for us all the horror that every single person who was the subject of this report had to endure. It was real and it was passionate. If any one of us was given the opportunity of being able to travel back to the mists of time to that night when that little child was first raped and was then beaten to a pulp the following morning, then we would grab that chance this very minute and extract him from that environment. We would do everything possible in our power to take every one of those children out of that environment and ensure they were never subjected to that kind of torture and degrading treatment ever again.

Unfortunately, we cannot travel back in time. All we can do at this point is try to care for the people who suffered, put in place the kind of support they need and hope we can somehow work with them in finding the kind of peace they deserve. I am convinced the majority of them will never find that peace, but it is incumbent upon us all to work with them in doing that.

In the Ireland of 2009, we can answer the call of children who are still suffering abuse and violence. It is in the power of every one of us in this House to answer the 236,000 calls that went unanswered to the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children last year. Senator O'Toole raised this previously. A total of 236,000 children rang that number hoping to find at the end of that line a person who would offer them the advice, support and care they needed. The Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, ISPCC, published statistics for last year which report that it took a total of 650,000 calls, of which 414,000 were answered and 236,000 were unanswered. Some 13% of the calls that were answered were from children suffering severe abuse and violence. Assuming the same case mix across all of the calls, this to me means that just over 30,000 calls from children suffering the same abuse and violence were unanswered. This is utterly unacceptable in the Ireland of 2009. Celtic tiger or no Celtic tiger our priority, in the 1940s and 1950s, should have been to answer the call of the children abused at that time. More important, given current resources we have no excuse for allowing that type of neglect to happen. Some 30,000 children suffering abuse and violence did not get the response they deserve.

I spoke earlier by phone with the ISPCC. It is putting in place a programme through which it hopes to achieve by 2011 a 100% response to calls. That is two years away and is not soon enough. I asked the ISPCC what it would cost to ensure every call, 24 hours a day, would be answered. I was told it would cost an additional €3 million over the next three years, of which it undertook to raise €1.5 million and had asked the Government to respond with the balance, but was told that could not happen. For all the hand-wringing and platitudes engaged in the past couple of days, what greater symbolic response could we give to the children of Ireland who today continue to suffer abuse and violence than to say that as and from next week every call to the ISPCC Childline would be answered for the paltry investment, on our part, of roughly €500,000 per annum? No call unanswered must be the response and it must happen now.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The charge was made that one of my colleagues was making a political football of this issue, a charge I totally reject having listened to the debate at the time. I would like to quote my party leader yesterday on this issue:

It is not for me or anyone else to point the finger of political accusation. I extend to the Taoiseach and the Government the hand of unity, political solidarity and political necessity to deal with the consequences of these horrendous revelations.

I thank the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, for acknowledging today the all-party support and unity on this issue.

I welcome, as mentioned by my party leader yesterday, the initiative of the Taoiseach to meet with the religious orders to implement the recommendations of the Ryan report. The report highlights the Government's failure to invest adequately in child protection policy and its abject failure to ensure the National Guidelines for the Protection and Welfare of Children 1999 were properly implemented. These guidelines have not up to now been implemented even though, through the boom years, the coffers were full. The welfare of children was not given the priority which was necessary and which it deserved.

There is no doubt there is a moral responsibility on the religious orders to make a further contribution to show that every possible effort is being made to address their wrongdoing. I welcome the belated response from CORI today which accepts this stance. I believe those who are guilty, regardless of when the abuse took place, must face the full rigors of the law. I hope the Garda Assistant Commissioner will report soon on this issue and that we will be in a position to prosecute the perpetrators of these horrors.

We are told the Minster of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Barry Andrews, will draft and present to Government in July a detailed plan for implementation of the recommendations of the Ryan report. Should the Houses of the Oireachtas not be recalled to discuss the details of this plan? It is imperative that the opinion of both Houses is sought on this matter.

Like other speakers, I welcome the statements from the leader of the Catholic church, Cardinal Brady and the Archbishop of Dublin and their call on the religious orders to pay their agreed contribution to the State scheme and stating that it was their moral duty to revisit the scheme and pay more compensation. In my opinion, apologies made by the religious orders should be sincere, unlike the Christian Brothers, who appeared sincere, but who then legally challenged the victims at every step of the road and the commission, thus preventing it naming individuals in the report. I believe all living victims should receive from the religious orders in question, regardless of how long it takes, a personal apology in addition to extra financial reparation.

Not a night or day passes that victims do not feel hurt or pain or endure the need for love and atonement. This shames us all and leaves us with a measure of guilt. This is an horrific story, a sad saga for the children of the so-called island of saints of scholars. We cannot in any way understand how these people grew up with these terrible crimes so vivid in their minds and imprinted on their souls. We heard the other night former Fianna Fáil councillor, Michael O'Brien, speak so emotionally on this issue on "Questions and Answers".

There must be a response from the religious institutions that provides real support for victims and recognises the moral imperative of the revelations to which everyone needs access. There must be an understanding that there are many whose stories have not yet been told and who may now find the courage to come forward. When listening to the radio a couple of days ago I heard the presenter read out a text he had received from a man saying he had been abused and that was the first time he had admitted it. How many more such people are out there?

The officials and inspectors in the Department of Education throughout the shameful period when this abuse took place have an awful lot to answer for. They had the power to halt this torture of the innocence but were grossly negligent in their duties. The judges who handed down sentences which were beyond their remit must feel ashamed of themselves at this stage. Indeed, the legal system that allowed those custodial sentences go unchallenged also has an awful lot to answer for. The sentences handed down to victims of these horrors in the past must be deleted and expunged from the records. This is a matter that should be addressed as a matter of urgency. These people did not commit crimes and all those records should be deleted.

I join in the calls for a national day of commemoration for the victims of abuse. We as a nation should never forget this horrific and shameful period in Irish history, which should not be allowed to happen again.

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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The report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, which was published last week, is the latest report on institutional abuse in this country. It comes after the Ferns Report in 2005 and will be followed shortly by a report on the archdiocese of Dublin. Once again the horrific sex crimes, neglect, torture and brutality perpetrated by priests and nuns on poor and vulnerable children are laid bare. Their victims' humanity was dismissed, their identities expunged and their voices silenced.

What I find truly shocking is the collusion between the State and clergy in what was effectively human trafficking. The system of capitation created an incentive to increase the numbers held in industrial schools. The report recounts how this system made the schools economically viable. The religious orders pounced on this opportunity and exploited the system to create what one inmate of Letterfrack described as labour camps and child prisons.

The apology which the Taoiseach gave in 1999 was long overdue but the State's actions have rendered it somewhat hollow. The State assured victims of abuse who went before the commission and the redress board that they would be spared the trauma of a trial but this was not the experience of many. The gentleman who was on television earlier this week outlined the ferociousness with which he was cross-examined and re-traumatised and spoke about his difficulties in coping with this process. I am aware that many more could not cope and, as a result, committed suicide. They did not deserve this fate.

The Department of Education and Science was anything but co-operative with the inquiry. Ms Justice Laffoy referred to this on her resignation from the commission. It is shocking to learn that a Department was dragging its heels on an inquiry commissioned by the State.

Former residents have spent decades trying to recapture their lives. They have received vindication of sorts with the publication of the Ryan report but total vindication only comes with justice. Until the perpetrators of these crimes are brought to court and made accountable, justice will never be delivered to the young children who suffered so abominably under the supervision of pillars of our society. Yesterday the Taoiseach sought to reassure us the criminals will be pursued but has the State not offered them solace by the fact that the Ryan inquiry rendered vital evidence inadmissible in a criminal proceeding? This begs the question of who will receive justice from this report.

The indemnity agreed between the church and State was a shameful deal reached under dubious circumstances. The former Comptroller and Auditor General made a stinging criticism of the deal in September 2003. The Irish Times reported his concerns as follows:

The fundamental question remains: why did the government agree to a deal which gave rise to unlimited liability for the State, yet scrapped the liability of the religious orders in return for €40 million in cash and 80 million in property ... While much focus has been on the fact that the CAG has put the potential bill at 1 billion, the report also highlights the fact that during the negotiations no government department ever did a detailed analysis of the potential exposure of the State.

Indeed the report highlights the fact that, as the negotiations with religious orders were ongoing, the potential number of claimants and cost of the scheme kept being revised upwards.

This reveals the extent of the State's failure to assess its exposure properly with the result that it is now vulnerable to huge liabilities.

The citizens of this State have supported the clergy and this is what has made them rich. I do not offer devotion and blind loyalty to the church but I recognise that others do so. The church's behaviour towards these people has been traumatic. It clearly believes they do not deserve the moral guidance they seek. The orders have shown mealy mouthed determination in keeping their purses closed. Regardless of the legal complications of the deal, if the church wants to portray itself as the country's moral guardian, it needs to think about what it is doing. I was somewhat repulsed by the manner in which CORI indicated that it wanted to show more charity in dispensing money rather taking appropriate responsibility in terms of sharing culpability with the State. The notion of dispensing charity is an indication of a superior attitude which I find deeply offensive.

Happily, we live in a republic and as such we should ensure the separation of church and State. Constitutionally, however, the Catholic Church is in a preferential position. We see now the damage that can do. It is high time that we modernised the Constitution into a truly republican document in which church and State are clearly separate.

The nation's stunned anger is clear to all but we must ask ourselves what we can learn from the report. The best promise we can make is that children in the care of the State will be protected to the highest standards.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It has been ordered that the Minister of State will speak at 4.50 p.m., so Senator Mullen will have to conclude then.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I dtosach báire, ba bhreá liom an tAire Stáit a fháiltiú go dtí an Teach. Is díospóireacht tubaisteach í an díospóireacht seo, i ndáiríre. Tá gach éinne atá tar éis dul i ngleic leis an méid atá sa tuairisc seo croíbhriste de bharr an méid a tharla do dhaoine óga. Ba chóir go mbeadh na daoine is laige i gcroílár an tsochaí. Ba cheart go mbeadh cosaint ar fáil dóibh, ach an mhalairt a bhí fíor. Tá géarghá le machnamh a dhéanamh ag an am seo.

This report makes for sickening reading. It is difficult to find the right words at a time like this other than to reiterate the sorrow, anger and shame we all feel. A storm rages around us. The publication of the commission's report is having a devastating effect, and rightly so. At one level it seems strange, though, considering that so much was already known about the horrors of life in the institutions run in decades past by the religious orders. It seems, however, that the consolidation of this catalogue of evil has reawakened in many people their well established sense of shame and sorrow. This is especially so in that this should have happened for many of us within our church and society, where we would have wanted to see a greater example of love and care to be given by definition. In some hearts there is even a desire for vengeance, which is understandable too.

Two examples from this report stick out for me as being particularly tubaisteach. They exemplify some of the horror of what went on. One example concerns the disparity of treatment accorded to lay abusers. On a number of occasions where there were lay abusers within these institutions, the gardaí were sent for promptly and action was taken. On many other occasions, however, there was clearly a failure to act properly in the same institutions when the abuser in question turned out to be a member of a religious order.

Another example struck me perhaps because we are talking at a time when we have been reflecting a lot about our economy and the greed that has led to the current crisis. It is truly scandalous, however, to think that greed may also be part of this story. The Ryan commission's report claims, for example, that there was a movement by the orders to keep the institutions open in the early years of the 20th century. They had an interest in keeping their numbers up for revenue reasons, which is truly scandalous, heartbreaking and profoundly unacceptable.

It is difficult to find anything like the required calmness, balance and precision, but it is important to say something for those people of faith in particular. Our first thoughts are for the victims of abuse, but it is important to note and to put on record the profound heartbreak of people of faith in particular. This is precisely so since they love their church so much and because this happened under the watch of agencies working within their church. There are feelings of humiliation that those in leadership in the church should not only have failed to rise above the cruelty of the times but also that they exemplified it on occasions and on many occasions they exacerbated it. I am speaking here not only of the people who perpetrated abuse but also of those who presided over the institutions. This is the damning thing about this report, that time after time one sees that people knew what was going on. I was struck in particular by a line about the Rosminian Order which, unlike other orders in their dealings with the commission, at least sought to understand the abuse. However, the report notes that other congregations sought to explain it. Therefore even at the investigation stage there was a failure to accept the reality of what went on. We see many examples of occasions when not only were people aware of abusers on the staff of these institutions, but they were also moved to other institutions. In some cases they were allowed to continue to work for many years, even though their propensity to abuse was well known.

It was particularly tragic that in one institution so much hardship — I am not speaking of sexual abuse — was imposed on children who had to work under a regime of extreme drudgery manufacturing rosary beads. The contradiction at the heart of that defies belief.

There are feelings of helplessness and indignation. There are also feelings of indignation when one thinks of how the reputation of the entire church has been affected, not just of the orders in question, but also of the many good people who have worked and continue to work so well and generously and very often for nothing. People who love God and their neighbour get forgotten at a time like this. There are also feelings of indignation because the huge unpaid contribution by the religious to social justice for the betterment of the disadvantaged in our society gets left out of the equation, perhaps understandably but no less painfully at a time like this.

I must be honest and say that there are feelings of indignation when we see people using the current wave of anguish and anger as a wedge to advance a separate political project. I noted what Senator Norris said and I think he was referring to me when he thought he was accused of anti-Catholicism earlier. Given the tragedy of anti-Catholic bigotry that blighted life in Northern Ireland for so many years, I would regret if it were to raise its head again under a different guise, particularly under provoking circumstances such as these. I would be doing less than my duty as a public representative if I did not view and note with concern attempts to prosecute a different political agenda on the back of the horror and anger we all feel, and a certain lack of respect for the facts on occasion as people seek to do so.

Yesterday in this House, for example, my colleague Senator O'Toole raised the matter assuredly and informatively because, he said, the Ryan report made it clear that the Vatican was used as a place for orders to lodge files that they do not want to make available to the Government. This is a serious claim indeed, but it is a claim without any solid basis. Anyone who takes the time to read the Ryan report carefully, which, I submit, is what every public representative should do, will see that there are no references on any occasion to Vatican files. What are mentioned are the important files that were kept by religious congregations in Rome, which happened to have, and do have, headquarters in the city of Rome in the Italian jurisdiction, precisely because the Vatican is based there.

This highlights the need to educate ourselves about topics we choose to speak about, particularly when we choose to speak about them so fervently and authoritatively. This is not an attempt to water down the horrors of what is in this report. It is morally wrong, however, to seek to take advantage of the anger of these unique and dreadful days to push a separate agenda. It was in that context that I would be critical of Senator Norris for raising section 37 of the Employment Equality Act. I am really disappointed that the Minister sees fit, as he said, in light of the current circumstances, to review that section, because it has nothing to do with child protection. It has nothing to do with any one church. Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act, negotiated at European level and implemented in our legislation, merely guarantees that religious run institutions, be they educational or health care institutions, can run these institutions according to their ethos when making employment decisions. That is a matter of protecting freedom of conscience. Even if I am wrong about the substance of the issue and the desirability of section 37, surely I am not wrong in saying that it is wrong to use these tragic times as the lever or wedge to open up that particular debate. It amounts to saying that because Catholics and non-Catholics are disgusted at the behaviour of some — indeed, many, I have to say, tragically — members of our church, we are going to use this opportunity to attack religion and the free practice of religion in our society.

Senator O'Malley talks about the separation of church and State, and she is absolutely right to do so. However, the group of distinguished American visitors in the Visitors Gallery would tell her that separation of church and state is about protecting church and state.

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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Both.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is about leaving people free to follow their consciences, which in the context of equality matters includes employment decisions.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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That is what she is saying, apparently.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am open to that but it was not clear to me. One must look honestly at the Constitution and ask how much undesirable linkage there is in the present set-up. The mere fact that religion is honoured in our Constitution does not mean there is an absence of separation between church and State.

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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There is a preference for a certain type of religion.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has one minute remaining and there should be no interruptions please.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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It certainly honours the free practice of religion and recognises it as a social good, but it in no sense places a disability on people who do not practice that faith or a Christian faith of any kind.

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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All faiths are not just Christian.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes, and I would be open to looking at that aspect of it, but that would not amount to a separation of church and State. I would be in favour of including other faiths but that would not open up the issue of what Senator O'Malley described as a separation of church and State.

As we all know, the young people in the institutions were not guilty of any sin. Nonetheless, it seems appropriate to recall the words of the founder of Christianity to which many of those who presided over the abuse adhered, albeit so badly: "Woe to you that caused one of those little ones to sin, better that a millstone be cast around your neck and that you be cast into the sea." They bear a terrible moral responsibility for what they have done, whether they are ever brought to book for it in this State or not.

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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They are criminals.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Let us go forward remembering that what we must now do is focus on the need for justice for those who were abused and focus on the need for fairness as we come to terms gradually with the evil that occurred in our society. Let us do everything necessary to ensure such evil never occurs again.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, given the enormity of the report, which is the single biggest report we have had in this House, it is wrong that the debate concludes today. Three Members on this side have offered to speak but have been unable to do so. I understand the Acting Chairman's position but this debate should be allowed to adjourn rather than conclude this evening.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, it has been ruled on and the Order of Business was agreed to. My hands are tied.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that——

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter worthy of mentioning again. I would like to speak on it also.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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We need to roll over this debate to another day.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Buttimer should raise it with the Leader on the Order of Business tomorrow morning.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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It would be wrong if we concluded the debate today with a statement from the Minister of State because Members on both sides of the House wish to speak on it.

Photo of Denis O'DonovanDenis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I agree but the order of the day compels me to ask the Minister of State to respond and to conclude the debate at 5 p.m.

Photo of Barry AndrewsBarry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I will respond to some of the items to which I had an opportunity to listen. The final point made by Senator Mullen on the employment equality legislation is very interesting and goes to the heart of how we order our society. The difficulty with Ireland is that we do not have a substantial parallel educational or health system that is non-religious; it is almost impossible in many parts of Ireland to access education and health services without crossing the threshold of a religious ethos. It has grown in this way and if were to start again we would probably start from a different point but we do not have this choice. I understand people asking why we do not apply the employment equality legislation and there is an argument to be made. Rather than it being an attack on a religious ethos surely we should have the confidence to know that it would enhance a religious ethos and parallel and match that ethos and give it a fresh authority. This is an interesting debate and it goes to the heart of many of the issues on which I have touched over the past year as the Minister of State with responsibility for children.

Senator O'Malley made a very passionate speech and I thought she captured the public mood, which is one of shock at the extent of the breadth and depth of the abuse and neglect of children over an entire century and almost certainly it went back to before living memory. Those tragedies will never be ventilated but the Ryan commission has done a great service to the State. The challenge for me as Minister of State with responsibility for children is to try to ensure it was not done in vain and that those who articulated their testimonials to the committees of the Ryan commission did not do so in vain.

Times have changed substantially since the period that the Ryan commission reported on. Our child welfare and protection services has gaps and I am the first to admit this. However, very substantial improvements have been made. In recent months we have had the enactment of the Criminal Evidence Act 1992, which allows children to give evidence by way of video conferencing; for the first time we have removed the trauma of having to give evidence live in court and Senator O'Malley referred to this. The Ryan commission was given power under statute to refer evidence that had come before it to the Garda if it was thought it might be of assistance in a prosecution.

The issue of anonymity forms a very interesting part of the Ryan report and is worth reading. Mr. Justice Ryan invited submissions from all interested parties on the issue of the anonymity of perpetrators and every submission stated it was highly problematic. Everyone acknowledged that it would lengthen the process very severely, in circumstances where many of the victims were elderly and whether they would be able to give evidence was in question. While they were agreed on this, they could not agree on a way forward so Mr. Justice Ryan took the decision to seek a change to the legislation on anonymity and this allowed him to report, albeit a full five years later.

I very much welcome last night's Government decision. It was based on the new information that has come out of the report and the much greater extent than was initially anticipated of compensation that has been paid out. I welcome the decision of some of the congregations to speak with the Government in the very near future. As Minister of State with responsibility for children, I intend to meet children's rights groups later this week to discuss their views on the outcome of the report and I hope to be able to outline to them the changes that have taken place, those that are in play and those which they think are additional and I will try to match them against the recommendations made by Mr. Justice Ryan. It will be very difficult for me to present that implementation plan but I am anxious that it will be done in full and I propose to take soundings from the Departments of Education and Science and Justice, Equality and Law Reform as well as my office.

As the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, stated earlier, we are all united in our abhorrence at the harrowing stories told in the commission's report and I welcome the all-party approach to dealing with the report. I also take this opportunity to pay tribute to the former residents who gave evidence to the commission so that a true account of what really happened could be given. To tell their stories was a very painful experience and I want to acknowledge their bravery. I also want to acknowledge those victims who are no longer with us but who were given a voice through the harrowing accounts given in the report.

The report makes it clear that from the State's perspective the abuse of children occurred because of failures of systems, policy, management and administration as well as of senior personnel who were concerned with industrial and reformatory schools. These children were placed in institutions by the State and the State had a duty of care to them. The victims were let down by the State and we must ensure this does not happen again. Children who are in care and detention rely on the State to identify their needs and provide appropriate, relevant and sufficient services in a timely manner.

Other children, who do not come into care arrangements, rely on the State to provide support services to them and their families so they can continue to live in their family environment. The HSE has indicated that since 2003 funding for family support services has increased significantly by 79%, foster care by 34% and residential by 7%. The smaller increase in residential care reflects the positive steps taken by the HSE on foot of Government policy in this area to prioritise foster care placements over residential care.

The agenda for children's services is the overarching Government policy for children's services and was published in December 2007. The agenda contains many of the key principles which are in line with the recommendations made in the report of the commission into child abuse, including that policy should be child centred and clearly articulated, methods should be in place to evaluate the extent to which services meet their aims and contact and involvement with family should be ongoing.

As the Taoiseach stated last night, the Government is fully committed to implementing the recommendations of the commission's report. The report contains 20 recommendations and there are other issues throughout the body of the report that require consideration. I will be developing a plan for the implementation of the recommendations which will include specific actions, a timetable for implementation, costings and any other associated implementation issues. I will bring the plan to the Government by the end of July.

I take this opportunity to thank the commission and Mr. Justice Ryan for all their work in producing this comprehensive report and I want to assure the House I am fully committed, as is the Government, to ensuring we learn the lessons of the past and that the recommendations are implemented.