Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour) | Oireachtas source

One's name might be an indication of one's gender. We are a bit off achieving my objective in this regard but we will work towards it. As with today's contributions, we eventually get round to the right position.

I thank Senator Bacik and her colleagues for the opportunity to speak on this important Bill. They will know from my previous comments that I am very committed in this area. The Government welcomes the attention Senators have brought to the position of LGBT people in the teaching profession who may feel compelled to hide their real identity for fear of discrimination. The debate on Second Stage of this Bill clearly illustrates that extensive cross-party support exists for ensuring the equal rights of citizens, irrespective of their sexual orientation or religious affiliation, and for clarifying the law in this area. As I said when the Seanad last considered this Bill, in March 2013, the Bill and its intentions are commendable. Both parties in government fully support this initiative. The House will recall that the Government has undertaken, in its programme for Government, to ensure people of no faith or minority religious backgrounds and publicly identified LGBT people should not be deterred from training or taking up employment as teachers in the State. Both the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, and I are committed to strengthening the statutory protection for equality in this area.

To give expression to the right to freedom of religion as guaranteed under the Constitution, section 37 of the Employment Equality Act 1998 was designed to allow schools and other institutions to maintain their religious ethos. When Senators were speaking, I recalled numerous delegations from religious orders explaining to me in detail the constitutional protection the Church has in regard to the exercise of their faith and their management of religious lands, as referenced under Article 44. It is clear there is a delicate balance to be achieved between the various rights involved, such as the right to earn a living, the right to self-expression and free association and the right to freedom of religion. That section 37, as it is, provides such a balance was the conclusion of the Supreme Court in its examination of this provision when the Employment Equality Bill 1996 was referred to it by the President under Article 26 of the Constitution. We must be mindful to ensure the amendments we will bring forward will remain within what is constitutionally permissible. There is an argument about this but it is an argument to be had. There are competing rights at stake: the rights of freedom of religion and of association, on the one hand, and the right to earn a living free of discrimination, on the other. It is vital we get this right because failed reform would be in no one's interest.

The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, and I share the concerns previously expressed in this House about the potential impact on LGBT persons of this section. We believe it is possible to draft an alternative solution that addresses this difficulty and respects all the fundamental rights concerned, and we are committed to finding it. It was for that reason the Government decided not to oppose this Bill on Second Stage.

Before turning to the work before us today, I want to update Senators on the work we have done since the Bill was first introduced in this House in March 2013. The Government, given the complexity of the issues involved arising from the competing constitutional rights and the need to balance those rights to protect the interests of all citizens, was of the view that a formal public consultation process should be undertaken. For this reason, immediately on naming the members-designate of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission last April, the Minister for Justice and Equality asked them to undertake such consultation and examine all the issues involved.

I understand the public phase of the process has been completed and that the commission is preparing a report on the outcome in addition to its own views on the issue for submission to the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Minister for Education and Skills and me, being the Ministers centrally involved. I understand the public consultation phase attracted great interest and a large volume of submissions. More than 60 submissions were received, and they are being examined. One will appreciate that considering this volume of submissions and framing its response was a significant task for the commission.

Nevertheless, I am delighted to able to inform the House that, just yesterday, the commission informed the Department of Justice and Equality that it has completed its analysis of the submissions received. It has agreed on a report taking account of the legal framework and the views received, and the report will be forwarded to the Department within a day or two. Senators will understand, therefore, why we believe it was necessary to await the commission's report before we moved any further with this Bill. As soon as the report is received, the Government will have an opportunity to consider it and to come back to the House with any detailed amendments to the Bill that might be needed. The issues involved are complex and we need to get it right. This addresses Senator Zappone’s concerns on what we know and the type of information and background data we need to have.

The institutional and individual stakeholders who have contributed to the consultation exercise have a legitimate expectation that their views will be listened to in the evolution of this legislation. I am conscious that this is the first issue on which the new commission has been consulted and of the need to cement a good working relationship with that body from the start.

As I said in the course of Second Stage in this House, it is the Government's intention to table a number of amendments to the Bill and strengthen it against any possibility of constitutional attack. Since the report to be received shortly from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission will be important in considering the best way forward and as we will need to consult further the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and other Departments, such as the Department of Education and Skills, I am not in a position to present any such amendments today. It is my intention that, having received the commission's report, the relevant Ministers and I will examine it in detail and, in the light of the Attorney General's advice, bring forward such amendments as are necessary.

This will be done as quickly as possible. For today, I have to say that there is a possibility of amendments arising to each and every section of the Bill. I need to say this for the record and for procedural reasons. I also have to say that I am not in a position to accept any of the amendments proposed to the Bill. I hope Senators appreciate the position we are in and will not press any of the amendments we have before us. Of course, Opposition amendments can also be held back for the next debate when I will be in a position to respond on points of substance. In the meantime, I regret that I am not in a position to give a detailed response today but I assure Senators that the Government will be back with such a response as soon as possible. I believe there is no point in rushing the legislation as the issues are complex and we all want to get it right. We need to tease out all the implications and ensure our proposals strike the right balance between the different rights involved.

There are people who think that we have moved so far forward in this country that there will not be a response regarding the changes that we wish to make. I do not believe that for one minute. I refer to my experience of the original Bill in terms of the pressure that was put on people, the naming of individuals and going to areas where such people practised their faith and going to some, although not all, school meetings. Therefore, we need to get this legislation right and ensure it is robust.

I stress once more that I agree completely with the spirit of the Bill. I consider that this is significant issue in our current equality legislation but we need to craft something that is workable and acceptable. In my opinion, as it was all those years ago, it is completely unacceptable that anyone should live in fear of their personal situation being revealed and possibly them losing their livelihood.