Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

At the dinner the Leader of the Opposition in the Seanad at the time, Frances Fitzgerald, nearly collapsed on live television beside the Taoiseach when he announced that he would get rid of the Seanad. As Senator Heffernan and other colleagues have said, it had more to do with the opinion polls at that time than genuine political reform.

The Taoiseach, at the MacGill Summer School in July 2009, said with regard to the Seanad:

I see a different role for the Seanad here. I would change the electoral system and give every graduate a vote here ... There is a real need for proper scrutiny of European legislation. There is a need to have a forum for MEPs. There is a need to challenge the Seanad in the work that it does. Many people feel that it has just been a cosy House for far too long ... It has got real potential but it has got to be challenged in that sense.

That was late July. What happened in August and September to change the Taoiseach from being a reformer to an abolitionist?

The second myth is that the proposal is about reducing costs. Senator Barrett and other colleagues have correctly pointed out that the abolition of the Seanad will not save a cent because the potential saving of a few million euro will be spent on extra committees to deal with the business that elected Members of this House should be doing.

There are more myths but I shall not go through them. Colleagues in both Houses asked for a calm, balanced and reasoned debate on this proposed legislation. I shall mention a few words to the Minister of State that have been used by Ministers of both Government parties but not by him.

This concerns me and all of my colleagues in the House. We are surplus to requirements; we are wasters; we are not fit for purpose; and we are irrelevant. Is that a balanced debate? On 11 June a senior member of the Labour Party, Fergus "head on a plate" Finlay, said that we were "a fossil, a meaningless artefact that adds no fundamental value" to politics. Is that a balanced and reasoned debate? I suggest it is not. Looking back in history, similar words were used to condition the German people on acts carried out in their name. I will not get into that matter. This House has had honourable and decent Members since its foundation right up to this day.

Political reform is not getting rid of town councils or reducing the number of Deputies by eight, when Fine Gael promised to reduce it by 20. It will not reducing the number by 20 because we would need a referendum to do so and we could not have that. Political reform is not reducing the number of councillors elected in rural Ireland and moving them to the east coast. It is certainly not getting rid of one arm of democracy in our national Parliament. The public wants a Parliament that scrutinises public policy, questions public officials and makes sure those who exercise power in the country, elected and unelected, are held accountable for their actions. Getting rid of the Seanad would make the task more difficult. The Government, particularly the Taoiseach, is proposing to replace this House with a committee. We have all seen in recent days what happens to members of committees if they do not toe the line. That is what our democracy will face if the people vote to get rid of this House. We are asking that the question that we get rid of the Seanad or reform it be put to the people. That is all we are asking if this dictatorial Taoiseach insists on putting a referendum to the people.

Another quotation is that it is "populist nonsense for the Taoiseach to say that Ireland has too many politicians" and that he is "anti-politics and anti-democratic when he makes that assertion which contributes to the ongoing denigration of politics." That is not good for any of us and it is not good for our democracy. That comment came from a former Member of this House, Joanna Tuffy, who is now a Member of the other House, like the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes. This is anti-politics and anti-democratic and I cannot disagree with the words of Deputy Joanna Tuffy. I thank the Minister of State for sitting through the entire debate. Only for this House, the country would have been deprived of him for almost five years.