Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The underlying political system in Ireland is completely different from the systems in Scandinavia.

The constitutional structures of the Nordic countries have devolved far more political responsibilities to local level. The facts speak for themselves. The most successful countries have bicameral situations.

I can go into greater detail. As far as cost is concerned, the Taoiseach is citing a figure of €20 million, which has no basis in reality. It is in stark contrast to the position set out by the Clerk of the Dáil, Mr. Kieran Coughlan, who is a former Clerk of this House. As the Accounting Officer of the Oireachtas, Mr. Coughlan publicly testified in January 2012 that the gross annual saving from the abolition of the Vote of the Oireachtas will be less than €10 million. The net savings will be very much less if we take into account the fact that 30% of it goes back to the Exchequer in taxes, levies and VAT. The real annual cost of the Seanad is probably in the region of €6 million, compared to an annual €28 million for councillors in pay and allowances.

I am appalled by the proposals to abolish a House of such quality, which such quality contributors. I find it extraordinarily insulting to those who went before him as holders of the office of Taoiseach. Returning to my earlier remarks on Henry Grattan, another point was made in this contribution:

Some MPs were raised to the peerage or promoted, for example from a baronage to an earldom. In a few cases direct money bribes were made. The viceroy wrote in despair: "My occupation is now of the most unpleasant nature, negotiating and jobbing with the most corrupt people".

I heard Senator David Norris lecturing me this morning and I am sorry it was not recorded because it was very impressive. He said that we should not sell out the Seanad, that we should stand firm and oppose the abolition and that we would be doing all a favour. It reminds me that the people who were against the removal now find themselves in more elevated positions and are in a position to say that the Seanad should be abolished. An example is the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, who led the Opposition party in this House and is now in Cabinet. None of them stood by the House because the Taoiseach felt, for political reasons, it was to his advantage. I will not be beaten. I regard the referendum on the Seanad as a referendum on abortion and a referendum on this Government and I will therefore ask the people to vote "No", "No", and "No" again.