Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

I wish to thank all Senators for their contributions to the debate. I welcome the rich seam of knowledge in this Seanad concerning the issues we are addressing today. At a time of such economic difficulty, it is important to have the sort of support and understanding which we have seen in the House today concerning early intervention. We have not always had that but it is something people have grown to understand in recent years. Senator Quinn spoke of thinking about education as beginning from birth onwards - that it is not just about when a child enters primary school. There are also issues concerning our approach to education. Many countries, such as Norway for example, regard the early years as opportunities to play and mix as opposed to formal learning. We tend to move into formal learning at an earlier stage. Some countries leave it to five or six years of age or even older. There is an interesting debate in that regard.

Senator Hayden spoke about the links between education and child care, and the fact that we need to have more engagement between the early childhood care sector and our education system. There is no doubt that we need to have a much more engaged discussion between both sectors - those who are supplying early childhood care and the primary schools.

The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, is very interested in this matter and I look forward to working with him on it. The síolta-aistear is about having quality standards for young children whether they are at the pre-school stage or in primary school. Therefore an interesting linkage is already beginning in that respect.

I welcome Senator Barrett's unequivocal statement on violence, which we would all share. Senator Leyden and others asked about the physical punishment of children. It is important to note from all the studies we have - particularly the major longitudinal study - that the great majority of parents do not use smacking as a form of discipline. Some 0.5% of mothers reported smacking their children regularly or always. However, we have seen a big change in attitudes to physical violence against children, both in schools and generally. It may occur in families where there are enormous pressures. My approach would be to support the positive changes we are seeing and reinforce them by giving families the necessary supports so they do not find themselves in this situation. On the other hand, we have had some extreme cases of non-accidental injury where intervention must occur. We know from the reports on neglect and abuse, including child sexual abuse, that some children are subject to severe forms of abuse. Nonetheless we must welcome the sort of cultural and attitudinal changes to physical punishment we are witnessing.

Section 246 of the Child Care Act provides clear legal deterrents to the use of excessive physical discipline within a home setting or otherwise. I will not quote the section in full, but subsection (1) states:

It shall be an offence for any person who has the custody, charge or care of a child wilfully to assault, ill treat, neglect, abandon or expose the child or cause to procure or allow the child to be assaulted, ill treated, neglected, abandoned or exposed in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering.

We therefore have this legislative provision which has been used on many occasions. Some severe sentences have been handed down. I wanted to put that on the record concerning the particular topic which was raised by a number of Senators.

The general discussion today has highlighted how important early intervention is, in addition to its economic benefits. Given that we are in a time of economic difficulty, I welcome support from Senators for funding in this area. My Department has been subject to funding cutbacks but, as with other Departments, it has kept them to a minimum. Given the economic situation facing us, however, we must examine reform of the services, including better agency working. We must look to many national organisations, be they in the youth work or child care areas, to see how they can work together, pool resources and share services. That is a challenge for all such organisations. A huge amount of money was made available to the voluntary sector over a long period but we are now in a new situation which involves embracing efficiencies and reform. We must ask agencies to work well together and take a fresh look at how they operate. The reaction from most agencies is positive and they are doing that, but I do not want to see the number of front line youth workers being reduced. I want to keep such services. I know that some of our really good voluntary organisations have had to examine their own management structures. It is fair to say that some management structures have grown hugely in recent times. That may well need to be looked at with a view to having more efficiencies, as in every other area.

The referendum on children's rights was referred to by a number of Senators and we have done a lot of work on it. We are effectively working on the committee report because we have given a commitment that the new wording will be based on the committee's wording. Senator Leyden raised this question first and I acknowledge the committee's work as well as that of the former Minister, Mary O'Rourke, who chaired 64 meetings. A lot of work was done in that regard. The previous Government moved away from the committee's wording on the advice of the then Attorney General. I am now drafting a wording that will reflect the committee's commitments. The key areas on which we will be focusing are to ensure that children's rights are in the Constitution, that the child's voice will be heard in matters that affect it at judicial level, and that the child's best interests will be considered.

I also plan to publish legislation on adoption that would accompany the referendum. Although it had not been worked on previously, I am now working on that legislation so that in voting on the referendum people will know precisely what they are voting for concerning adoption. Senator Hayden raised a question about the family. Children of marital and non-marital families are dealt with differently at the moment. For example, children of marital families are not eligible for adoption. We have between 1,600 and 2,000 Irish children who, if our law and Constitution had been different, would probably have been adopted. There is great interest in inter-country adoption but we have a minimum of 1,600 young Irish children - although older now - in foster care. Many of their foster parents would like to have adopted them, while many of the children themselves would like to have been adopted, but they could not be because of the strictness of the interpretation of the law as it currently applies. When the constitutional referendum is passed it will make a difference to those children.

It will also mean that Irish children of marital parents who are not in a position to care for them will be eligible for adoption. People sometimes find it hard to believe the kind of pressures such parents are under. A number of Senators spoke about the pressures on Irish families. People may be unaware of the great pressures that lead to families not being able to look after children in those circumstances, which are rare and exceptional. The concept of giving the child a second chance is one we should incorporate as much as possible. That is the goal of the referendum. A date for the referendum has not yet been decided and the wording has not been finalised. However, a significant amount of work has been done. When that stage is reached, the Cabinet will decide on the timing for the referenda. However, the Taoiseach and I have both given a commitment that the referendum will be held this year.

A number of points were made about the secure units. I admit there are legacy issues with regard to secure units and I refer to the reports on Gleann Álainn and Ballydowd. However, the report published yesterday noted the range of improvements which had been implemented. I visited Ballydowd some weeks ago and I saw at first hand the much improved physical structure and the work of the staff. Yesterday's report stated that inspectors found there had been a marked improvement in the standard of care in the secure units since the previous round of inspections. The main areas of improvement were in management, the delivery of care to the children and the overall presentation of the unit. The safety concerns raised in the previous report had been well managed and risk-assessed but there were some ongoing challenges which required attention. There was a discussion about one particular child and a disagreement between the views of the inspectors and what the clinicians who had been dealing with the child thought was the best action.

The work in these special care units is very difficult and challenging. The children and young people have very complex needs. In my view, a national policy on these units is required and this has been missing until recently. There is an over-dependence on agency staff in these units and a number of other issues need to be addressed. The director of the child and family services in the HSE, Gordon Jeyes, is addressing these issues and he is working on producing a national policy. In the meantime, it must be ensured that standards are as they should be.

I welcome the HIQA reports. I have met with HIQA on a number of occasions and its role is crucial with regard to secure units. Great care must be taken when dealing with secure units which must be monitored closely because of their nature and the challenges which they present. I also had a meeting with HIQA about Gleann Álainn in Cork where changes were noted but HIQA decided there was more work to be done. The young people in these units are getting better quality care as a result of the inspections but there is work to be done at a national level on the development of these units.

Senators have provided many questions for me to answer and we could have a very lengthy debate if I were to answer each question in detail but I will do my best on the range of issues which have been raised. Senator Henry referred to the Jack and Jill Foundation and I am very aware of its work. The Department of Health is the funding Department in this instance. I have been to a house where I saw the work done by the foundation for a young child who needed the sort of support services it provides. If the same child were in residential care one can only imagine what the cost would be and I take the Senator's point in that regard. Senator Henry raised a very interesting point about information on the referendum and the importance of ensuring that people understand the concept of children's rights. I ask for the assistance of all Senators because much work is needed; many people are unaware that children remain unadopted because they are children of married parents. I think the general provisions of the current Child Care Act are not generally understood by the public. We need to educate the public on why children are coming into the care system and that it is not an action taken lightly. I take the Senator's point about the information campaign which will be needed and I will follow up on her suggestion.

Senator van Turnhout covered a number of areas in her contribution. She stressed the quality issues relating to early intervention and I agree with her views that any cutback will have an impact on services. We must ensure that the standards in the early years services are as high as possible and this will require ongoing work. The standards vary and we aim to achieve an even and high standard in every service. We must be vigilant in this regard. I note that in the changed economic circumstances, many parents who previously took an extra six months of unpaid leave cannot take such leave and therefore more families are looking for child care for very young children of six months of age. This raises very specific issues about the quality of care provided for those children whether in a childminding setting or in a child care service. Other countries provide longer parental leave which gives greater choice to parents as regards the care of very young children. I would like to see the same arrangements in this country although there has traditionally been resistance to the extension of parental leave and paid parental leave but such a measure is a great support to parents. I refer in particular to the arrangements in the Scandinavian countries.

Deputy van Turnhout also spoke about the juvenile diversion programmes and I have responsibility for policy in this area. The programmes come under the remit of the Minister for Justice and Equality but I am working on the policy issues in this area with the Irish Youth Justice Service which is under the remit of my Department. It is interesting to note that fewer children and young people are going into detention with the numbers decreasing quite dramatically. However, many of those young people are now coming into the care system instead and this is putting the care system under significant financial pressure when dealing with the complex needs of these young people. These issues need to be considered from a national policy point of view and this has not been the case up to now. We need to develop a policy for dealing with children requiring a high level of support. Such care already incurs a very significant financial cost. If we could ensure that those young people were helped at an earlier stage it would be better for them and it would be far less costly. The HSE child and family services budget last year was overdrawn by €72 million, a very great sum of money. This demonstrates the pressures in the area of child services and it is one of the budgetary issues I am required to address. This is a very serious and challenging deficit. The issues relating to high support units contribute to that deficit because they are very expensive and we need to develop a national policy to deal with them but this will take some time.

Senator van Turnhout made quite a number of points about the area-based approaches which are contained in a commitment in the programme for Government. This policy will be led by the Tánaiste's office and by my office and it will be dealt with under the social policy committee of the Cabinet. A range of initiatives will be undertaken to roll out programmes for children, particularly for children in disadvantaged areas. The evaluation process needs to be completed. Very significant investment has been made. We need to study the research reports to see what is working because some things are not working. I refer as an example to an after-school service which was not working successfully for specific reasons. The research showed that for a range of reasons, this service was not the best intervention in a particular circumstance. We must evaluate the reports to see what lessons can be learned from the pilot projects and how these lessons can be applied generally. The same level of investment will not be available so it is about learning the lessons from the very detailed work being done.

The Senator raised a number of issues in regard to a particular case; she might give me those details.

On the point about child and adolescent mental health services, or CAMHS, and 16 to 18 year olds, it is essential that these services should be working with this age group. I intend to discuss this issue with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch. This is a very vulnerable group and one cannot write those involved out of a service. They have to have one, being a needy group with many issues around addiction and high-risk behaviour. It is unacceptable that at this stage we can say that 16 to 18 year olds do not have a mental health service or that there is no place identified where they can find one. It is a very big challenge.

Some of the issues raised today are primarily the responsibility of either the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, or the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, which highlights the type of interdepartmental approach that is needed. Disability was mentioned several times as was the assessment of young children by the various teams. That must be discussed because the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, does not come under my Department but under another. Therefore, the cross-departmental link-in is really important. As Senators know, we do not have brilliant models for cross-departmental work. We must develop ways of working across Departments so that we can deal with these issues in an integrated way. That certainly is the intention.

I responded to some of the points made by Senator Hayden. Both she and Senator Quinn asked me about the hotline. When I was last in the Chamber I stated I had set up a group to examine this matter for the first time. I asked the Garda, ComReg, the Department of Justice and Equality and my Department to come together to see how we might ensure a 1-1600 hotline for this country. During the course of the project team's work ComReg, which has responsibility for the allocation of this number in Ireland, it received an application from the ISPCC to operate the hotline. I thank that organisation for its interest in this matter. ComReg allocated the number to it and at this stage the group is working on technical issues about activating the telephone number. I expect that will happen this year and I hope sooner rather than later. The funding is being examined and the precise cost is under investigation. There is the EU Daphne programme which provides funding and I hope there will be a successful application to that fund. We will then examine the funding gap that remains and see how it can be met.

The Senator also spoke about training for professionals, about which I can only agree with her. She highlighted the needs of particular children who are at risk of poverty and-or in disadvantaged areas. The roll-out of the Government priority initiative I discussed will be most helpful in that regard.

A number of Senators discussed the research on obesity. It is shocking that we have three and three and a half year olds who are obese or overweight but it is important not to blame parents. It is a societal issue. Parents clearly have a role in this regard but it is also a societal matter, for example, our use of local parks and the development of recreational facilities. I recently launched a play and recreation network and brought together, for the first time, all the play and recreation officers from around the country. I asked them to come together in a national programme to ensure that our local authorities are working towards this end. They are doing terrific work with the sports partnerships. This is a very important initiative towards ensuring, for example, local schools can use the local parks, there are proper cycle lanes, walking and running tracks and that we have a very proactive approach to the subject. Much can be done in this area. It needs action by schools too.

I am often struck by hospitals in this regard. One goes in and wishes to buy a healthy snack but the vending machines do not have healthy food, in the main. It is hard to get healthy food in hospital waiting rooms or public areas, which is extraordinary. Senator Quinn will know about this. The food industry is very powerful from a lobbying point of view. Commercial enterprises have a job to do but we must look at the public health issues involved. There is much more awareness now of these issues and action is increasingly taken in schools and in working with parents. The wider debate in the public arena is very useful, in respect of the so-called fat tax or other initiatives that are needed. I heard some experts speak on this subject recently who claimed such mechanisms have been proven to be effective. If it is effective to do some work in this area and reduce the incidence of our children eating very unhealthy foods, I would welcome it. However, I would not underestimate the industry's reaction.

Senator Quinn asked about the hotline, which I believe I have covered, and also about supporting families and how we can best work with them. I made points about early intervention and providing the best supports. Child benefit has been extremely useful to families. I agree with Senator Cullinane that it is used for the basic essentials and for children, generally.

There are great opportunities in working with preschools and families at risk in the area of nutrition. We have county child care committees in every county. In Monaghan recently, I was very interested to see these committees are bringing professionals such as speech and occupational therapists into the preschool services, which goes back to the point made about professionals and disability. Those involved find it is a much more efficient way of getting help to families rather than giving appointments to parents at local clinics and hospitals, which may be missed. We need to do much more of that and bring the services to where the children actually are. The ECCE scheme, with 95% of the three year olds in the country attending, gives a real opportunity to do that. I would like to see that initiative being developed throughout the country.

Senator White mentioned a particular case and I will get the details from her. I acknowledge the work she has done in this area.

Senator Moloney spoke about family resource centres. I am very happy to meet with their national forum. I have met with many of those involved on an individual basis, have attended some of their events and been to many of the family resource centres. I totally agree with the Senator about the work they are doing at community level. It is really important. In the new child and family agency we want to keep the ethos of the family resource centres which is one of working at community level. The organisation has not been a member of the task force group but we have had a lot of contact with it. The chief executive officer, Pat Bennett, to whom I wish to pay tribute, has done much work with the task force so we have had a very important link to the work the family resource centres are doing through contact with their CEO. I thank Mr. Bennett for his work with the centres. They have had some funding cutbacks but we have managed to keep these fairly low and I believe they are managing to do most of the work they had been doing. We want to support them.

Senator Zappone spoke about the importance of training. I can only agree with her. This, again, is a question of resources but training is key and there is quite an amount of it going on. When I was in Athlone the other day with Tús Nua I met many of the people from Early Childhood Ireland who are doing training around the country. There is a significant amount of training going on but we want to see Síolta and Aistear being done all over the country, not only as pilot projects. That is the intention and I will work with the Department of Education and Skills to ensure that happens.

Senator Moran mentioned multidisciplinary teams and the need to have them available to children in early intervention. I do not know the answer to her question about the private psychology reports. I understood they were being accepted but I can check that and revert to the Senator on it.

The Senator spoke about the importance of inter-agency work, sharing information and early intervention. I will soon put the Children First guidelines on a statutory basis and part of the legislation will be about the importance of inter-agency work and sharing information, as well as reporting cases people are concerned about to the appropriate authorities. That would put more focus on the multi-disciplinary work and sharing information effectively. An example was given by a Senator earlier of 21 people who were in contact with one particular family. We do not want such situation to arise. We want effective intervention. Proper intervention means proper risk assessment, deciding who the key worker is and working effectively after that.

Much work has been done. I do not have time to go into all the detail of it here but the national director is working on an extensive programme of ensuring that all referrals to social workers are screened, considered and prioritised appropriately by professionally qualified social workers. We are now gathering data in a much more organised way across the country to allow us compare what is happening in one part of the country with another. The national procedures for monitoring and reporting back are being developed, and that should help in terms of that kind of multi-agency involvement with a particular family.

Senator Barrett spoke about the important links to public health nurses and the National Education Welfare Board. The National Education Welfare Board is now under my Department which has meant there is more and better integration but the task force I have set up to establish the new child and family support agency will give me three reports shortly. One is on the establishment of the agency, its governance, the reporting arrangements, etc. Another is on the vision of the agency but the third and important one is on the services that should come under the new child and family support agency and how we can have appropriate links, for example, to general practitioners, public health nurses and education welfare officers. It is a key issue. Those type of linkages are extremely important.

We discussed already the issue in regard to violence.

I do not expect that the issue of voting rights for 16 year olds will be dealt with in the children's referendum but Senator Moran might discuss it in the constitutional convention. The children's rights referendum will deal with the issues on which work has been done in the committee.

I hope I have dealt with as many as possible of the questions raised but I am sure we will have another opportunity to discuss the issues. I thank Senators for their interest in this area, with many of them present for the end of the debate. It will be a huge support to me in ensuring we continue to have the resources we need to make a difference to children and families.