Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive outline of the legislation. I give the Bill a guarded welcome. The Minister rightly suggests that we are entering new territory. I have some genuine concerns about the Bill. I served on the Committee of Public Accounts in the previous Dáil and I saw how the Abbeylara judgment inhibited the effectiveness of that committee in the writing of reports. The case of FÁS was a prime example. It also showed, however, what committees can do in delivering speedy, comprehensive and cost effective reports on behalf of the citizens. We are bringing forward real powers of inquiry in this Bill. I have a number of questions.

I am on the committee that has been established to initiate these powers. Will the referendum affect the Committee of Public Accounts in a positive way, in regard to setting aside the implications of the Abbeylara judgment? In my view the Committee of Public Accounts is the more important committee of the House. Should the legislation be passed by the referendum, will the Committee of Public Accounts have additional powers?

The Minister has referred to the setting of protocols and has extended an invitation to Members to make submissions. My party colleague, Deputy Dara Calleary, has made one. The Minister said: "In addition, the courts in reviewing the procedures of any inquiry would assess the balance which the inquiry has sought to strike between natural justice and the public interest." Is that after the event? Members of the Oireachtas are privileged to have parliamentary privilege when speaking in the Oireachtas. In the main, Members do not abuse this privilege and it is guarded very carefully. All of our citizens are entitled to their good name and this is a given when a citizen appears before a committee, yet we are introducing a mechanism that if somebody has a complaint about the way a committee has treated or ruled against the person, he or she has recource to the courts. I wonder whether in the terms of reference of a given inquiry should individuals who will be called to appear before it have an opportunity to look at its terms of reference, rather than letting the committee make a ruling. If a ruling is made, it is in the public domain and we know that people can be tainted from that.

Is the Minister planning to preclude any Government or any Minister or member of the Government party from instructing or suggesting that the investigative committee make inquiries? I have seen how the Committee of Public Accounts, on which Senator Clune and I served under the chairmanship of the former Deputy, Bernard Allen, worked very well on a non-political basis across parties. This proposed investigative committee will have members who are new to the Oireachtas. It will need to be watched over very carefully. Has the Minister plans to preclude this and future Governments from making suggestions on instructing the committee to carry out certain investigations?

The Minister mentioned the rule that the party Whip will not be applied when members are serving on this committee. If it is possible, that should be tied into the Standing Orders of the committee and if at all possible tied into the legislation, as is the case with the planning Act that governs all the local authorities for county development plans where there is supposed to be no Whip system in place. Unfortunately, in practice, the Whip is applied.

Everybody who has served on a committee will know that certain members will prepare well while others do not and will simply throw out the best phrases to gain media attention. What is crucial for a committee which effectively will have the power to make a ruling, and findings of fact against persons or bodies, is the support of a secretariat in the first year of its establishment. The members of the committee - I do not suggest that members are not serious about this work - need to be informed about the importance of their role and to guard the real powers that are available to them.

I agree with the thrust of what the Minister is doing, but I am very concerned. We must cross the Rubicon