Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)

The Minister of State said this is a new Government with a new approach. It has been in office for only six months and it is much too soon to cast final judgment on its approach. Senator Crown has brought forward this Private Members' Bill because he saw what he felt was a gap in the law which needs to be addressed. It is welcome - I do not state this in a patronising fashion - that Members of the Opposition bring forward Private Members' legislation. Historically, in the body of Irish politics few Private Members' Bills have passed into law. Ironically, as this is a Bill for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence we must recognise that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, is one of the few Deputies who has succeeded in having a Private Members' Bill passed. I hope such events will not be rare in future if we all genuinely try to bring about a new type of politics.

The legislation before us in the name of Senator Crown asks us to take a new departure and put into law a system whereby the Garda and Judiciary can be lobbied by politicians. Our friends in Fianna Fáil ask that the Bill be allowed to pass Second Stage and that party's spokesperson stated it will table amendments on Committee Stage. I must ask whether he is in favour of allowing politicians to lobby the Garda and the Judiciary because this is the core of the Bill. The Bill would put in place a system which would allow such lobbying to take place, albeit in a regulated fashion. What we have heard from the Minister of State - I am sure her senior colleague agrees - and what is the firm message from this side of the House is that the separation of powers is sacrosanct and there can be no deviation from it. We cannot have any system, registered or unregistered, whereby politicians are in a position to make representations to the Garda or the Judiciary. This goes to the core of the speech by the Minister of State and why the Bill cannot be accepted.

I listened with interest to what Senator Crown stated. Historically, there have been relatively few occasions when a difficulty has occurred with regard to lobbying of the Judiciary or the Garda by elected politicians. Irish politics can sometimes get a little carried away with hearsay. From time to time the message has gone out that politicians spend all of their days lobbying gardaí and officials in order to secure favours. That is not the case. The vast majority of Oireachtas Members have had no occasion to engage in such lobbying, not simply because it was illegal but because such requests were not made of them. I do not think we have a problem which needs to be resolved.

The message must go out loud and clear from the House again that the law as it stands prohibits each and every one of us from engaging directly or lobbying the Garda or Judiciary on behalf of our constituents. That is the law and that is the position which has served the State well since, as the Minister said, 1937. I do not think we should set about fixing a problem when the current legal position is the best one.

The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, has been unfairly accused of using harsh language and speaking in strident tones. She has simply clearly outlined the current position, the reason why it is deemed to be the most favourable and advantageous. She has clearly highlighted what she and her colleague, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and all of us feel are the problems with what Senator Crown has produced. If we accept his Bill, I cannot see how it could be amended by the Opposition. We would then be actively encouraging the lobbying of the Garda and the Judiciary by politicians.

One of the interesting comments by the Minister was that when one constituency representative is contacted, he or she feels obliged to do his or her bit and then a second and a third politician gets involved and there is almost be a competition as to how many politicians a prospective defendant has lobbying on his or her behalf. I do not wish to patronise Senator Crown. I welcome the fact that an Independent Member of the House feels the problem can be best addressed by bringing forward Private Member's legislation. I look forward to many more Bills being introduced, not just from Senator Crown but colleagues on all sides of the House, including perhaps some on the Government side. However, if there is a problem with the lobbying of the Judiciary and the Garda it is best solved by each of us stating clearly that such efforts to intervene are illegal, will remain illegal and should not be practised.

I support what the Minister of State has said in her decision to reject the legislation. She also said - it is important to put on record - that where there is a gap in the law and where a suggestion on something that is unconstitutional a Private Member's Bill will receive a fair hearing from the Government. That is the key phrase, "Where there is a gap in the law". In this case when we reflect on it Senator Crown would recognise that there is not a gap in the law. It is surely desirable that there would be a clear bar and ban put on elected politicians improperly lobbying the Garda or the Judiciary. In this case there is not a gap in the law, which is best left as it is.

I regret to say to Senator Crown that on this occasion his Private Member's Bill should not be accepted. The situation as it is has served us well and will continue to serve us well. If we wish to do our bit politically we should ensure that the message goes out loud and clear that any attempt by a politician to interfere with the course of the law must remain illegal and highly improper.