Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)

We thought we had to save €3 billion last year but it ended up being €6 billion. We lost our seats, partially as a result of that. I hope the same fate does not befall the Minister's party. The reality is that the bond markets turned against this country last year, not only for internal reasons. It is not always the fault of the people or the nation.

The people generally have a great love of their public services. They want to believe in and be served by them. When a letter was sent stating that certain aspects of the public sector would be outsourced, a certain fear was created. Outsourcing always has bad connotations. Recently a major mobile phone company outsourced jobs in the north east to India. It happened in England where departmental services were outsourced and government services moved abroad, not just to the private sector.

The amendment asks the Minister to notify the Oireachtas when he proposes this will happen in order that we will have a chance to think about. It may require legislation. People would be concerned if their public services were being outsourced. The proposal will need a strong Department and Minister. There is agreement that the current Minister is strong. When Departments receive a letter asking them examine what services could be outsourced, the Minister will be prepared for some resistance. Will a Department write back saying "Yes, you could outsource half the work we do. Sure, we're totally surplus to requirements"? Are they really going to respond in that way, I wonder? Therefore, the Minister will have to be strong and not rely totally on what they have done. The Minister should look to other countries to see what way they do things. It is worrying when we hear the words "privatisation" and "outsourcing", so there should be some statutory check on that situation. If, for example, the Minister was to outsource social welfare processing, which was mentioned, there is no doubt that would require a statutory check. The same applies to the Passport Office. If these matters are being considered, therefore, they should be brought before the Oireachtas so we can debate them at an early stage. The Minister needs bold powers and dramatic things will have to happen. However, if the Minister sticks to his commitment not to raise income tax or cut welfare, and sticks to the Croke Park agreement, I would not be too far wrong in saying that 20% of the State's services would have to be removed completely. The welfare budget is 40% so if one excludes welfare and pay, 20% of the rest would have to be removed. If that is what the Minister is thinking of, it will involve a huge amount of outsourcing. We should have a detailed debate beforehand because I do not know if the public is ready for that or even realises the scale of the task. It is a lot easier to cut welfare by X% because of the fact that it is 40% of the budget. Everybody understands that, although they might not like it. I am not sure, however, if they understand the consequences of having to remove entire parts of the public sector, which is now beginning to be spoken about. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, has also mentioned it. That would be pretty dramatic so it is important that the Oireachtas should be informed of outsourcing matters when the Minister considers them.

This harps back to an amendment that was not accepted earlier, which sought a report of the Minister's activities before the legislation is enacted. I acknowledge the Minister is doing good work but, in fairness, we would like him to set out what he is doing in a report. This is a part of it because the Department's Secretary General sent out a letter which, presumably, was technically under the aegis of the Department of Finance.