Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)

We might well. It is a neater, cleaner Bill that is before us and the functions of both Ministers have been exhaustively trawled in the creation of this.

Section 23, which is another belt and braces job,states that any disputes arising in regard to the performance of functions set out in this Act for Ministers shall be determined by the Taoiseach. This is a standard provision from the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act 1939.

Part 4 provides for the necessary amendments to miscellaneous legislation to take account of the establishment of the new Department.Sections 24 to 98 set out those Acts in chronological order from 1924 to date that need to be amended to link the policy role of the Minister for public expenditure and reform. Many of these provisions relate to the payments role of the Minister for Finance in regard to the Central Fund. The responsibility for the Central Fund will remain with the Minister for Finance. However, as a large number of related policy matters are transferring to me, the Bill provides that such transactions on the Central Fund shall be carried out upon the request or with the approval of the Minister for public expenditure and reform. In addition, some of the provisions in Part 4 deal with references to the Minister for Public Service which need to be tidied up. There used to be a separate Minister for Public Service at one stage. These provisions also deal with borrowing matters where the nature of the provision was not suitable for inclusion in Schedule 2.

Part 5 deals with miscellaneous provisions. I should explain why these are in the Bill. Sections 99 and 100 were transposed into the Bill in the other House at the request of the Minister for Finance. In essence, they have nothing to do with the establishment of the Department of public expenditure and reform. They are two finance measures but the Minister was anxious that they would both be enacted into law - I will explain why in a moment - and this was the most suitable vehicle. There are other finance vehicles going through the House currently but they are money Bills and to transpose these sections into them would rob those enactments of their money Bill status. It was determined that they would be better placed in this Bill.

Section 99 clarifies the legal status of staff of the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA. As these staff remain employees of the NTMA and will not be civil servants during their period of assignment, there is a need to ensure no legal ambiguity exists in regard to their ability to perform their duties on behalf of the Minister. That is a little impenetrable if one does not know what is happening in this area. Senators will be aware that there has been a thorough review of the functionality of the Department of Finance, in particular of its banking division. There have been a number of overviews, including external overviews by people such as Mr. Nyberg, of which Senators will be aware, and a set of very strong recommendations to strengthen the banking division and its capacity. The Minister for Finance has been engaged in that. He has brought in a number of experts and has also seconded a number of individuals from the NTMA to work directly in the Department of Finance. Since they are not established civil servants and remain employees of the NTMA on secondment, this measure is to ensure there is no legal ambiguity in case there might be any legal doubt about their capacity to act in the name of the Minister under what Senators might be aware is the old Carltona principle, whereby in law, officers of the Minister are deemed to acting with the authority of the Minister. That is established Irish law, replicating what was established in the Carltona judgment under British law. This measure gives the same legal capacity to the NTMA staff who are on secondment in case there might be any legal challenge to their ability to sign affidavits or do anything else in the name of Minister.

Section 100 gives effect to the recommendations of the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into Payments to Politicians and Related Matters, better known to us all as the Moriarty tribunal, conducted by Mr. Justice Moriarty. That tribunal recommended that the principle or convention of the independence of the Revenue Commissioners be given a more robust status through legislative provision. Therefore, the proposed provision places on a statutory basis what has actually been a long-standing convention in this area stretching back to the establishment of the Revenue Commissioners.

I will clarify the intention. Mr. Justice Moriarty's tribunal report recommended that the independence of Revenue to determine the taxation affairs of every individual citizen should be clear and put on a statutory basis. It has always been there by convention and no Government since the establishment of the Revenue Commissioners has breached it, but it was believed that we should make the convention clear beyond doubt in law. That is what this provision addresses. It will be possible to have the proper overview of the Revenue Commissioners in the normal way in general policy terms.

Schedule 1 contains a list of commercial semi-State bodies that are not included in the definition of "public service body" for the purposes of section 9 relating to the reform functions. Schedule 2, Part 1 lists the functions of the Minister for Finance that are transferring to the Minister for public expenditure and reform and that will be exercised with the consent of the Minister for Finance. Sections 8 and 19 refer. The functions largely relate to borrowings and indemnities. The Bill provides for a joined-up approach to overseeing borrowing transactions impacting on the Exchequer and to monitoring overall debt levels.

Schedule 2, Part 2 lists the functions of the Minister for Finance that are transferring to the Minister for public expenditure and reform and that will be exercised following consultation with the Minister for Finance. Sections 8 and 19 also refer. These provisions relate to the review provisions in the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Acts.

Schedule 3 lists the legislation governing payments of superannuation and remuneration from the Central Fund to link the policy role of the Minister for public expenditure and reform in respect of this legislation with the payments role of the Minister for Finance in respect of the Central Fund. Section 17 refers.

In addition to the Bill's provisions, I will also be introducing a small number of technical amendments on Committee Stage. The list has been circulated. They are technical in nature and include such items as the inclusion of commas that we missed and so on, but we can discuss those later.

The new architecture that we have designed to disaggregate the old functions of the Department of Finance and to create the new Department of public expenditure and reform was come to separately by both Government parties as being the only way in which to drive reform. In advance of entering into government, I was asked by my party to draw up a reform agenda for the public service, which I did with the help of a co-ordinating crew of academics, experts and people who have held senior positions in other countries' public services. I was strongly advised that, to achieve real reform, we needed a Cabinet-ranked Minister in control of expenditure. As it transpired, exactly the same advice had been given to Fine Gael. There was no difficulty during the negotiations on the programme for Government in constructing the architecture we are now presenting to the House. Most external oversight and those who have been involved in reform initiatives in the past have accepted this architecture as being the way to go.

I have not mentioned one over-arching structure where the Departments are concerned, something that will co-ordinate economic policy generally. The Government has established an economic management council, which has been up and running since day 1. It consists of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and myself, supported by those staff who are appropriate to the topics in the Department of Finance, the Department of public expenditure and reform, the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, the Central Bank and other agencies, including the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Presenting in a coherent, structured way the message of our economic position was an extremely important item on our agenda. Unfortunately, a coherent message had not been emanating from Ireland until recently.

I am asking the House to support and approve the Bill and, in doing so, to provide a sound legislative basis to underpin the formal establishment of the Department of public expenditure and reform and the transfer of certain functions from the Minister for Finance to me as the new Minister for public expenditure and reform. The Bill is an important step on our reform journey and I heartily commend it to the House.