Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Moloney. The report of Judge Reilly has been critical of the conditions in 14 prisons. Eleven of 15 prisons have situations of over-capacity. The role of our prison officers and the work they have done should be acknowledged, as Senator O'Malley noted, and they should be supported. They do extraordinary work but are undervalued, underappreciated and in need of our acknowledgment today.

Reading the report of Judge Reilly one is struck by the fact that our prison system is in need of overhaul, in both its infrastructure - its buildings - and its staff morale, but also by some way of making the prison regime more rehabilitative as opposed to merely locking up people. We need to strike that balance. Many would argue we should have a turn the key mentality and should forget about the people we incarcerate. It is much more important to have a holistic approach, namely, to understand the cause of the crime and to try to rehabilitate the prisoner who has committed the offence. Much reference was made to Mr. John Lonergan and to comments he has made since retiring. He spoke very well about the link between crime and social and economic deprivation. He is right. There is a clear connection between them.

The report contains a very interesting statistic. In 2008, 50 prisoners were in prison for less than three months, 124 were there for between three and six months, and 283 for between six and twelve months. I am concerned that we have failed to tackle the overcrowding issue. Limerick Prison has 75% more prisoners than it can cater for and on 23 July Cork Prison had 316 prisoners, exceeding its 272-bed capacity by 10%. I talked to staff in Cork Prison when I was preparing for this debate and recently, when canvassing, I met other staff. They are very concerned about their own safety and morale and, equally, about the way in which the prison is able to deal with prisoners in classes and workshops, which was mentioned by Senator Cummins. They are concerned about the quality of the education system within the prison.

It is extraordinary that all but eight cells in Cork Prison are doubled up and sometimes there are three prisoners in the one cell. This lends itself to rioting and insurrection in prisons. The Prisoner Officers Association, POA, made a very good comment on the Mountjoy Prison riots, describing the prisoners as being like flies on top of each other. In Mountjoy Prison on the night of the recent riots there were 677 inmates, well in excess of the stated capacity of 450. It is important to look at staff health and safety as well as at the prisoner. This is joined-up thinking.

As Senator Boyle noted, we need to consider what we want our prison system to do and what we want prisoners to do in prison. During the summer I was in Rhode Island. On Route 1, the main interstate route between Boston and Rhode Island, one frequently saw prisoners doing manual labour, picking up rubbish, cutting grass and trimming hedges on the main highway, under supervision. These were low level prisoners. It is important to engage in such a programme in this country. I will probably have some human rights activists after me now but it is important we broaden our thinking about what we can get inmates to do.

I believe, equally, that prison must be rehabilitative. We must have an education system in prisons that would allow inmates, who in some cases would have little or no education, to come out of prison with some kind of learning and education, perhaps even a trade or a degree. With my background in education, I believe we must give people an opportunity to redeem themselves and turn the corner. If our system is only concerned with locking people up, incarcerating them for nine or ten hours a day, it fails. It may give people their pound of flesh and a moral victory but overall there is a knock-on effect which we are missing.

During his term as Minister for Justice and Law Reform, Michael McDowell boasted about making prisons drug free. We are very far away from that. I shall strike a politically discordant note by observing that the Fianna Fáil mantra of zero tolerance has not worked either. Our prisons are overcrowded. We now see that our prisons are overcrowded, it is acknowledged that the methodology we are using is not working and we have refused to overhaul the prison system.

Will the Minister of State say what the situation is as regards the proposed new prison for Kilworth in County Cork? The site has been earmarked, but we have heard little or nothing from Government as regards that. Senator Cummins spoke strongly as regards people with fines, and progress in that regard is to be welcomed. However, we have seen a lack of joined-up thinking between local authorities and the Departments of Justice and Law Reform and Education and Skills as regards community service orders, anti-social behaviour orders and the behaviour of people in society. There is a need to use community service orders rather than incarceration as a sanction for minor offences.

It is also important that there should be ring-fencing of moneys for drug treatment in prison. It is not good enough that people go into prison drug free and come out addicted to some type of drug. I pay tribute to Judge Michael Reilly for his report. I also compliment Mr. John Lonergan, who has been a very strong voice in this regard. I might not always agree with what he has to say, but he has not been afraid to articulate his viewpoint, and he has put a humane and compassionate face on the prison system. I thank the Minister of State for being here.