Alex White (Labour)

-----in respect of how he perceived the position, what he thought would occur in the future, what was the strength and robustness of the banks etc. It was also stated the Government would never nationalise any institution because such a policy would be completely wrong-headed. However, Anglo Irish Bank was then nationalised. Is someone from the Minister's Department already working on the script he will deliver in the House on the night on which he comes here to nationalise one of the other banks?

I return to the issue of certainties. I accept that there are no certainties associated with the argument relating to nationalisation. In view of Senator Ross's support for nationalisation, the ideology relating to the latter could hardly be left-wing in nature. I do not claim, either on behalf of my party or anyone else, that there are certainties associated with the proposal that the banks ought to be nationalised on a temporary basis. However, I am aware that this has happened elsewhere.

Senator Boyle referred to confidence. The only confidence in which I am interested is that which has some basis to it. I am not interested in confidence based on hope or wishing that matters will come right. As legislators, we are supposed to seek some evidence of this confidence. The approach of nationalisation has been employed in other countries and proven to be successful, albeit at a cost. The one thing of which we are all aware is that what we are doing is going to cost us an enormous amount of money. Taxpayers, my children and everyone else's and perhaps our grandchildren will all be saddled with the bill. The question is how we can minimise the cost. I genuinely accept that the Minister is interested in minimising the cost to the taxpayer. I do not, however, accept the notion that NAMA should deliberately and knowingly overpay for assets.

On long-term economic value, Senator Boyle does not appear to understand the prospect of a property either rising or falling in price is already included in what we understand to be market value. If I purchase a house, I am aware that there is a prospect, possibility or even hope it will increase in value or that there is also a risk that it will decrease in value. That knowledge is incorporated in one of the laws of capitalism - the Senator probably does not need a lecture from me on the latter - namely, that of supply and demand. In the context of the laws of capitalism, long-term economic value is a fiction. It is a direct intervention in the dynamic relating to prices being determined by the law of supply and demand.

I have read most of the material in respect of this debate and would like someone to draw my attention to how and on what basis the uplift amount of 15% - as opposed to any other figure - was arrived at. On a number of occasions the Minister has indicated that it was part of the best advice he had received. He stated Professor Honohan and his predecessor, Mr. Hurley, thought it to be reasonable. He consulted both men and others in the matter. However, I would like an evidence-based argument to be made as to why this figure, as opposed to any other, is deemed appropriate. Was it simply plucked from the ether? I do not intend to criticise the Minister but he was not in a position to supply a figure until the Second Stage debate in the Dáil. What mechanism was used to arrive at that figure and how may we rest assured that it is accurate?

Many terms have been used during the course of the debate on this matter. There was a stage when the Minister used to become extremely annoyed with regard to the use of the term "bailout". He has, however, become somewhat more relaxed in that regard.