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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: Good afternoon everybody and you are welcome to the finance committee this afternoon. I apologise for the delay in getting started. I welcome to the meeting from the Department of housing Mr. Derek Rafferty, principal officer, and Mr. John Wickham, senior adviser in building standards; from the Department of Finance Ms Louise Heenan, principal officer, and Ms Aileen Gleeson, principal...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I thank Mr. Rafferty and invite Ms Aileen Gleeson to make the opening statement on behalf of the Department of Finance.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I thank Ms Gleeson. I invite Mr. Murphy from the Central Bank of Ireland to make his opening statement.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I thank Mr. Murphy. I will now take members' questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: They are agreed for the meeting before.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I welcome everybody back and call Deputy Conway-Walsh.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I thank the witnesses for their submissions and their time here today. I would not be so familiar with mica and the issues that people are suffering in Donegal, Mayo and Clare because it is not really prevalent or even existent in my own county, as far as I know, but when there is a hugely expensive scheme such as this, at over €2.2 billion to assist people, I have no doubt there will...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: That is very good. Ms Gleeson referred to legislation from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage being required. Is that an amendment to existing legislation or is it new legislation? Does she know what stage any legislation might be at?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: Mr. Rafferty spoke about the professional fees being covered in advance and for some services for enabling work to allow a developer to come in. Does that require any legislative change to enable it to happen?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: Mr. Rafferty's recommendation was that there should be no working capital upfront but that is not the way it works. If somebody who is eligible for a grant procures a construction team, then there are staged payments throughout the process.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I am sorry.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: In order to retain the contractor, given that there are a large number of work sites, it would not be that strange in the construction world that one would retain a builder by means of a payment. The Department does not do so but there is anything to stop a homeowner doing it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: The grant gets paid at different stages.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: That is good. Somebody mentioned a bespoke IT system. I think it was Mr. Rafferty. Could he explain, first, why it is required and the other benefits it might bring? Is this a bespoke IT system for local authorities?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: So this is an IT system for the BPFI.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I know from previous discussions we have had in the housing committee that there are often sections in local authorities that do not speak clearly to each other. I refer to commencement, planning and building control. If we were going to design an IT system, I hope it would not just be designed for that scheme but that it could provide many benefits across local authorities.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: All right.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: This is one of my last questions. Ms Gleeson referred to legal advice to be sought by the State. Is that legal advice on what would come under the state aid requirement?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Defective Concrete Blocks: Discussion (Resumed) (8 May 2024)

Steven Matthews: I do not know much about how state aid works. If the legal advice is that state aid is not a factor, does the Department then have to get European clearance?

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