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Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: On that point, we are talking about a different framework and toxic loans. The witness said the framework document was different from the one prior to 2011. How different was it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: That is a contradiction because the witness said there was a different framework document in 2011 from that in place in 2009 when the Department took over the two.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: How is it that there was not a different framework document in the light of the fact that the Department was taking over Anglo Irish Bank and the other bad debts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: When the Department took over the toxic loans of the two other banks after the establishment of IBRC, I understood there were different criteria for the framework document from day one. Is the witness saying it did not operate from day one?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Why not?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: However, there were many transactions taking place in the meantime.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: The brief we received in reply to questions states the shareholding management unit in the Department was responsible for managing the day-to-day relationship with IBRC. The SMU had daily instructions with the senior management team in the bank on a wide variety of issues, including the bank's performance, progress in deleveraging and the various consent and consultation requests which...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Imagine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: With due respect, I am giving credit for the work the witnesses are doing, but we are trying to be very fair also.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: I fully respect what Mr. Moran is saying. However, given the scale of the loans and the due diligence process that was ongoing, one can imagine the scale of concern about the indebtedness of the taxpayer regarding the outstanding loans and their cost implications and that one would be meticulous in this regard. One assumes that what is taking place today would have taken place then. In...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: What about the monthly management meetings which I used to attend with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: At the senior management meeting every head of section would have had his or her brief and a report would have been made. What happened at the monthly management meetings?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Would this issue have been discussed during management meetings?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Is Ms Nolan saying the monthly operations of IRBC would have been discussed at the management meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Would the reports have been circulated to the team?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Does the management team only include the assistant secretaries in the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Given the scale of the loans, I would have expected the Department to have in place a system to ensure the Minister was fully and regularly briefed. Was that the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: My final question relates to the possible impact of key personnel changes in the Department of Finance during the period when the Siteserv deal was being progressed. From various public commentaries, it is clear that the Siteserv sale process was initiated around August 2011 and that the process had reached IRBC approval stage by mid-March 2012. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: During that period the Government nominated the then Department of Finance Secretary General to the European Court of Auditors in October 2011. There were delays and difficulties in finalising the nomination to the European Court of Auditors and the assistant secretary left his position in the Department of Finance in early February 2012. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2013
Chapter 2 - Government Debt and Finance Accounts 2013
(14 May 2015)

John Perry: Mr. Cardiff.

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