Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I express my condolences to the family and friends of Kim Damti. Their heartbreak, grief and immense pain are things no family should ever have to experience. I wish Kim's family, and all of her friends who loved her, strength at these very difficult times. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam dílis.

As we turn towards the budget, tá sé soiléir go bhfuil an Rialtas seo i ndiaidh an tuáille a chaitheamh isteach ó thaobh ár seirbhísí sláinte. Cé nach raibh an ghéarchéim inár seirbhísí sláinte níos measa riamh, ní raibh siad mar thosaíocht i mbuiséad an Rialtais.

Our health services are under enormous and unprecedented pressure. Hospitals are persistently and dangerously overcrowded to record levels. Hundreds of thousands of people are on treatment waiting lists. Kids are left in agony and spinal procedures that would change their lives are going undelivered. Children and adolescent mental health services are on the floor, and nurses, doctors and other front-line staff are working under conditions that are so difficult that we have a serious recruitment and retention crisis across the board. The chronic and deepening crisis in health sees so many of our people locked out of the care they need.

Yet looking at the budget, you would believe that the Government thought none of this was happening. At a time when the crisis has never been worse, it beggars belief that health was not a priority for the Government in its budget. Our health service required ambitious investment and a radical plan, one that ensured additional beds and staff so that patients could get the right care right across the system. Instead the Government gave the health service less than half of what it needs just to stand still - not to improve, progress or turn the tide but just to stand still. That is shocking.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What happened to the promise made by the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, of 1,5000 additional hospital beds? He announced it on three occasions. That promise has melted away like snow on the ditch. It seems that the Minister was hung out to dry by a Government that has backed his incompetence every step of the way. It is clear to everybody that the Minister is out of his depth. He has no real plan to transform our health services and makes it up as he goes along.

What does the Government's failure to provide the necessary investment in health mean in plain terms? Let me break it down. There is no additional money for national strategies to improve cardiac, cancer and maternity services. There is no additional money to cut the cost of healthcare. There is no additional money for new medicines and therapies for patients with cancer. There is very little, if any, additional money for mental health services and child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. As section 39 and other workers prepare to strike next week, there is no guarantee of addressing pay inequality for those who care for our most vulnerable. Incredibly, as the Government breaks new records with hundreds of people on hospital trolleys daily, it has not provided for a single additional hospital bed anywhere in the State.

This budget is a disaster for our health service. It means the crisis in our health service is going to continue. Chronic waiting lists will continue. Overcrowding will continue and the Government has made sure of that. When things in hospitals get bad this winter, and when they get worse again next winter, the Government should remember why it is happening. It is happening because of the Government's choices. That will be why it is happening. The Government had an alternative. Sinn Féin put forward a plan to deliver extra beds and the resources our hospitals need. What did the Government do? It ignored it.

My question to the Tánaiste, on behalf of his Cabinet, is why the Government decided to throw in the towel on health. What does he say to the hundreds of thousands of people who are locked out of healthcare and who the Government has failed with this budget?

On my behalf and that of the Government and the people of Ireland, I convey heartfelt condolences to the family of Kim Damti in Ireland and Israel. This was an horrific, indiscriminate, random and barbarous attack on the Israeli people resulting in up to 1,300 people, including Kim, losing their lives. Anyone looking at the photograph of Kim in the media in recent days will have been struck by the radiance and energy in her expression. She was a young 22-year-old with her full life ahead of her only for it to be cut down in a barbaric way. Our thoughts remain, in particular, with her family at this very sad moment.

Ní aontaím leis an méid a bhí le rá ag an Teachta ó thaobh cúrsaí sláinte na tíre. Níl aon amhras ach go bhfuil infheistíocht ollmhór - suas le €7.5 billiún - curtha isteach againn sna seirbhísí ó thosaigh an Rialtas seo. Tá méadú an-mhór le feiscint sna seirbhísí sláinte de bharr na hinfheistíochta sin.

I thank the Deputy for the question but do not agree with his assessment and assertions in respect of the health service and the Government's commitment to and prioritisation of health. Disability has transferred to the Department of Children, Equality Disability, Integration and Youth, which takes away some of the allocation that would have been in the health budget. That allocation has now gone over to that other Department. More fundamentally, more than €7 billion in additional funding has been allocated to the health service since 2020. That has resulted in an expansion of services across the board. There has been an expansion in capacity across the board. The funding this year will include staffing for new hospitals, ICUs, and community beds. It includes staffing for the six surgical hubs. It includes investments in our workforce, such as advanced practice, more college and training places and more hospital consultants. We will continue to invest in our community services through funding for mental health services, social inclusion measures and services for older people. We have recruited up to 22,000 extra people to the health service since this Government was formed. We have delivered record levels of investment in our health service.

We have also cut costs for patients across the board, to which the Deputy did not refer at all. We have removed inpatient hospital charges. We have had the biggest expansion of access to free GP care in the history of the State. It is available now to half a million more people. To put that in context, up to 60% of our population now hold a GP card or medical card. We have reduced the cost of the drug payment scheme. We have funded diagnostic scans for patients. We have introduced free contraception for women up to the age of 31. We are now publicly funding assisted human reproduction, including IVF. We have agreed a new consultant contract, with more 800 consultants already signed up. There has been a 22% reduction in the number of patients on waiting lists who are exceeding the Sláintecare waiting time targets since the Covid-19-related peak. We have, in just the past two years, built up an entirely new community health service, including primary care, chronic disease management, older person services and ambulance services. As I have said, we have added 22,000 new staff since 2020. We have increased our hospital bed capacity by more than 1,000 in the same timeframe.

We have expanded our ICU bed capacity. It is not just beds, of course. It is the multidisciplinary teams that go with that. We have built a network of new primary care centres around the country. This level of investment is helping the health sector to meet the increasing levels of demand it is meeting. We now have one of the highest life expectancies in the European Union. Our survival rates for cancer, stroke, infant mortality and heart disease have hugely improved and our outcomes clearly show that our health service is delivering quality care across hospitals all over the country. We are-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Tánaiste.

I can deal with it in the supplementary answer.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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What land is the Tánaiste living in? He can walk into any of our hospitals any day of the week, any week of the year and he will see patients on trolleys or in chairs who have been admitted to hospital but cannot get into a bed. Why? Because the beds do not exist. The Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, told the Government that we need 1,000 beds right now and approximately 300 to 400 beds every single year. The Minister for Health said he was going to deliver 1,500 rapid beds. The Department of Health even put out an expression of interest.

The Government funded not one single euro for any additional bed despite the fact that it has broken new records in terms of the numbers of people overcrowding our hospitals in accident and emergency departments at the start of this year when more than 900 patients were without a bed and lying on trolleys. Those are the facts. Since the Minister of Health took office, our waiting lists have been growing with 40,000 more people languishing on waiting lists. We have people who are waiting for critical surgeries who are not able to get them year after year because the investment is not being made. The Department of Health and HSE told the Government what was needed to stand still. To leave the crisis we have at the same level next year, they told the Government what was needed, and it funded half of it.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy. Time is up now.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister for Health acknowledges that the Government has underfunded health so why did the Government throw in the towel? The Tánaiste knows it has thrown in the towel.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Time is up, Deputy.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Why did Government decide to do this and abandon all of these patients-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Time is up, Deputy, please.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----who we will hear about in the weeks and days to come?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Is "throw in the towel" the Deputy's new phrase?

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is true.

I heard it the other day. There were one or two other phrases-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is the Government's new response to every crisis - throw in the towel.

-----that become the norm during opposition, such as "missed opportunity", etc.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Put manners on them.

The bottom line is that the Deputy has not acknowledged the fact that there have been unprecedented and record levels of investment in the last three years in our health services. He has ignored the fact that we have come through a one in a century global pandemic, which has had a huge impact on our health service and continues to have an impact on our health services with, yes, dramatic increases-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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And the Government decided not to increase funding.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy. The Tánaiste without interruption.

-----in attendances, treatments and people requiring interventions. We have not been found wanting-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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You have.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Doherty, please.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Government has underfunded health.

We have not been found wanting over the last three years-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Government has underfunded health.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Doherty.

-----in relation to our health service-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is going to create a disaster in the health services. The Tánaiste knows it and the Minister for Health knows it.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Doherty, please.

-----and we will not be found wanting again. Deputy Doherty can shout all he wants, and he shouts a lot.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

He certainly shouts when he is endeavouring to refuse other people an opportunity to speak. Shouting and roaring about issues does not solve or resolve them.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I am challenging the Tánaiste's spin.

I acknowledge, through the Chair, that we have huge challenges facing health because when a budget goes up to €7 billion-plus in three years, we need to take stock.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Time is up now, Tánaiste, please.

We need to analyse and prepare for the future-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, let us not deliver any additional beds.

-----which is what we have done-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Let us not deliver any additional beds. Let the numbers go sky-high.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Doherty, please.

-----which is what we have done with the investment funds the Minister for Finance has provided.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is ridiculous.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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This is pathetic.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, please.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise. However, the patients will suffer as a result of this.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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He does it all the time.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, please.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Patients are going to suffer in every single constituency as a result of this-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Stop shouting.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----and the Government knows it-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Stop shouting.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----and the backbenchers know it also.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Stop shouting.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister for Health is telling them.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Is Deputy Doherty putting manners on us?

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister for Health is telling them this.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy putting manners on us?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we move on to Deputy Cairns, please?

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I join others in this House in extending my deepest sympathies to the family of Kim Damti who was brutally killed in a savage attack by Hamas. Kim was just 22, and like so many people her age loved attending music festivals with her friends. She was doing that last weekend when Hamas opened fire. More than 260 young people were massacred at that site. Elsewhere in southern Israel, more than 1,200 people have been confirmed dead. Thousands more have been injured.

The terror and devastation experienced by those caught up in the attack is unimaginable. So, too, is the terror experienced by Palestinian mothers cradling their children, desperate to shield them from the bombs dropping indiscriminately over their heads. It is impossible to imagine the devastation experienced by those in Gaza who as we speak are pulling the bodies of loved ones from the rubble that was formerly their home, school or hospital. More than 1,300 people, including more than 320 children, have been killed in Gaza by Israeli attacks. I can understand and empathise with the rage, grief and fear of the Israeli people. It has triggered generational trauma that is raw and real. Sadly, there has been little acknowledgment on the world stage of the generational trauma of the Palestinian people, a people who have been driven from their land, corralled and confined into open-air prisons and forced to exist under an apartheid regime that has inflicted injustice after injustice on the people of Palestine; a regime that has continuously massacred civilians. This has been the lived reality of the Palestinian people for decades and we cannot become desensitized to that horror.

The indiscriminate murder of Israeli civilians by Hamas fighters must be condemned unequivocally. There can be no justification for the deliberate targeting of civilians. The decision by the Israeli Government to blockade the supply of food, water and energy from Gaza is unprecedented and horrifying. Later today, it is expected that the fuel operating the generators in Gaza's hospitals will run out.

What is happening is a war crime. Civilians are being deliberately slaughtered and the international community cannot muster up a single word of criticism for the Israeli Government. More than 2 million people live in Gaza, 50% of whom are children. It is the most densely populated open-air prison on the planet so when Israel drops its bombs, civilians have nowhere to run. Now, they do not have food, water or electricity. Soon the Internet will also die, and they will be completely cut off from the world. The people of Gaza have days, a week at most. I am deeply concerned at the EU response to this crisis and the failure of Ursula von der Leyen to condemn the Israeli Government for its bombardment of Gaza. Does the Tánaiste share my concerns about the EU's response?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Well said.

I appreciate the Deputy raising this issue. I have articulated, like her, our deepest sympathies to the family of Kim Damti and also our horror at what happened last Saturday in respect of Hamas's attack on Israel. It can be very challenging at times in situations like this in juxtaposing one atrocity - I know Deputy Cairns is not doing this. However, we should not lose sight of the enormity of that atrocity, and we should never fail to call out. I know the Deputy is not doing that. I just want to say that because it was a moment in time when thousands of people moved over a border. We are told the number is up to 1,500 and that will all have to be verified, but 1,300 have been murdered and maybe 2,500 injured.

Equally, we should be careful of saying the "EU response". I can assure the Deputy that the response of Commissioner Várhelyi is not the European Union's response. I spoke at the Foreign Affairs Council during the week. The vast majority of member states were very clear, obviously, in unreservedly condemning the Hamas atrocity but also in making it clear that humanitarian aid and development aid to Palestinians would continue, both to the Palestinian Authority but also to Palestinians. I was very strongly of the view, and asserted the position of Ireland, that it would be a completely counterproductive and morally wrong thing to do. We must if anything now, and I have asked my officials to work with the United Nations and European partners in respect of additional aid that will be required for Gazans, make sure we can develop humanitarian corridors into Gaza in the short term to get aid.

We do not need an Old Testament approach to this but rather a New Testament approach. Ultimately, we need to move on a pathway to peace and reconciliation. It cannot be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth approach. That would be my view. We must distinguish between ordinary Palestinians going about their daily lives and those who lead Hamas and who orchestrated this attack by Hamas. Israel cannot punish innocent Gazans in indiscriminate bombings, which will result and has resulted in the deaths of children, women and innocent civilians.

I am very clear on that.

I understand Israel has a right to self-defence. It has a right to deal with Hamas because Hamas has declared war on Israel and murdered its civilians, but the entire population of Gaza cannot be collateral damage in that response to Hamas. International law must apply. President Biden said yesterday that Israel's response must uphold the rules of war. The vast majority of the Foreign Affairs Council in the European Union are clear that international law must apply. We are all the signatories to the Geneva Convention-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Tánaiste. We are out of time.

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. He might clarify if that means he does or does not share my concern about the EU response. When Russia targeted civilian infrastructure in Ukraine, the European Commission President was unequivocal. She said, "Russian attacks against civilian infrastructure, especially electricity, are war crimes". She continued, "Cutting off men, women, children of water, electricity, and heating, with the winter coming - these are acts of pure terror. And we have to call it as such." War crimes are not defined by the identity of the perpetrator but by the act itself. Cutting off fuel, food, electricity and energy to more than 2 million people is a clear war crime. Not only that, but the Commission President has failed to even publicly express any concern for the more than 2 million Palestinians trapped under relentless bombing.

Previously, the Tánaiste stressed the necessity of working alongside the EU to advance the cause of Palestine, but it is clear that the majority of member states will not speak out against Israel's treatment of Palestine and that the European Commission President has not done that herself. We can play a powerful role as a neutral arbiter if we are willing to act, lead and do so quickly. The people of Gaza do not have the luxury of time. What is the Tánaiste doing at an EU level to work towards an intervention to facilitate a pathway to a ceasefire, talks and peace? What is his position on the EU response?

Position on which?

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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On the EU response. Has the Tánaiste concerns about it?

I said earlier that I do not accept the Deputy's assessment of the EU response. One of the biggest donors to Palestine is the European Union. Let us not present the EU as a body that is somehow out to undermine Palestinians. There can be strands of opinion within the European Union. Some member states do not share our position or have a different perspective, but fundamentally, the biggest financial donor to the West Bank and Gaza is the European Union.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Some €700 million.

About €700 million. We allocated €16 million this year. I spoke to the Palestinian foreign minister, Riyad al-Maliki, two days ago. I spoke to the Palestinian Authority's secretary general this morning. We have been clear that our humanitarian or development aid continues and, as I said earlier, before I was cut off, the Geneva Convention and international law must be adhered to and applied. The vast majority of member states are-----

Holly Cairns (Cork South West, Social Democrats)
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What about the President's response?

-----very clear about continuing development aid and humanitarian aid, but also ensuring that any interventions or attacks have to be in accordance with international law.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I also share in the sympathy for Kim Damti's family. For a young woman of 22 years of age to lose her life in such a tragic way is horrific.

I ask the Tánaiste about one of his Ministers ignoring Transport Infrastructure Ireland's, TII, data on spending funds on restructuring roads and maintenance of existing roads. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, decided against it even though his Department has full data that show the number of fatalities that will be caused if funds are not spent on the national road networks. This is also reflected in our local county councils not being able to repair or resurface roads. One reason is the local authorities cannot get staff. I had engineers contact me during the week saying they cannot retain staff, even within the county councils, for the road networks, and they cannot get the funding to resurface roads and do basic repairs on them for safety.

We also have concerns on the road network about cutting hedges for health and safety of lives. The Wildlife Acts tell us that we cannot cut certain hedges on roadsides. We now have our transport network of buses, trucks and cars travelling in the middle of roads because if a local authority goes to repair a road, it is allowed to cut 1 m in and 2 m up. What happens? The hedgerow heads for the centre. Where are the mirrors on a bus? Up at 2 m. Where are the mirrors on a truck? Up at 2 m. They can no longer pull in on our road networks. Bus Éireann came back and said that it has to have buses with fewer seats to travel the roads because its buses are too big, because we are not allowed to cut the hedges on our roadsides for the protection of pedestrians, cyclists, bus networks and basic travel.

When county councils put up signage, under their own legal requirements, the signs have to be a metre off the road to allow for mirrors and things to pass for safety, but our roads are closing in. With all the statistics the Minister had from TII on our road networks, he refused to spend the budget it asked him to spend on upgrading our road network for the health and safety of all vehicle users.

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. It is worth pointing out that since 2020, the Government has invested €5.17 billion in all road infrastructure, including new roads and the protection and maintenance of existing infrastructure.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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That was the past three years.

The priority is the delivery of a network that is safe and robust. In respect of the protection and renewal programme for existing roads, TII has safety as its priority, as do the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers. Inflation has eaten into the budget. The Government sanctioned and approved the construction of the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge road project. I ask the Deputy to look at the dramatic inflationary increase in the cost of that road from the original time it was mooted to where it is now. Nonetheless, we sanctioned it and it will go ahead.

The more fundamental point from a safety point of view is that, for the first nine months of 2023, approximately two thirds of fatalities on the road network have occurred on non-national roads, so we are very conscious of safety. Speed is still the big killer on our roads and we need to acknowledge that. This year, about €491 million of Exchequer capital funding was provided for national roads, for both protection and renewal, and new roads through Transport Infrastructure Ireland. Some €120 million was provided using public private partnerships and so forth.

I do not think we can blame the policy on hedges for this. Biodiversity is important. We need balance. It has been quite successful. What has happened in the past two years has been far more successful in respect of the protection of hedgerows, which we also need as a society for-----

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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And our roadsides?

-----balanced development and maintenance of nature, which then helps us all to survive.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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There is a hedge in between them.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I am asking about the roads.

The hedges are not really a factor in road deaths and safety on our roads. There is a significant issue here and there has to be an holistic approach, covering all aspects, including structural adjustments to roads and improvements to road structures.

Ministers are looking at that in respect of allocations specifically to road restructuring in order to make certain roads and locations safer. That is important.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Again, the Tánaiste did not listen to the question. I was on about roadside hedges. I am all for biodiversity. All the other hedges that are inside can grow. I am talking about roadsides and the protection of people who travel on them.

It has emerged that the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, was warned last year that the failure to properly invest in new road projects and improvements on roads would result in 77 deaths and 381 serious injuries over the next five years. There was a shocking €88 million reduction in budget 2022, and a further reduction of €113 million in 2023, in relevant funding. The Tánaiste talked about all the investments that are being done, but TII has said exactly what the number of deaths over the next five years will be. One death over the next five years would be a lot. The Tánaiste talked about taking the advice of professionals.

To go back to road infrastructure, I want all hedges on roads to be 1 m in and straight up. Biodiversity can live inside that. When we then hit the ditches, we will not be destroying hedgerows, wildlife or biodiversity, which the Tánaiste referenced. I am here to save lives. We are here to save lives; it is common sense.

So am I, Deputy. I first came into government in 1997. There were 472 road deaths in Ireland that year. We saw a reduction to 137 in 2021. That was massive progress. There was a lot of opposition to the many measures that it took to bring road deaths down to 137. There was a lot of opposition in the House to then Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, and others who earned the wrath of many Deputies who said he could not do this or that. He did it, however, with the Road Safety Authority, RSA, and the late Gay Byrne. It was not palatable in the Chamber but the figures spoke for themselves. As soon as there was any talk in the past two to three months about moderation of speed limits, it happened again straight out. I challenge the Deputy, if one or two unpalatable measures came out in respect of how we could get road deaths down again, that he might have a different tune and would attack the Minister for daring to do this to rural Ireland. I am as committed as the Deputy is to road safety, but it took a lot of difficult political choices to get to the better position we are in. We have now gone backwards-----

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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But the funding-----

-----in terms of the numbers this year in that 136 people have been killed on our roads. That is a rise. We have to reflect. It took many measures and many different approaches. We now need the same approach to deal with it.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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This year, I and other County Donegal Deputies have raised issues around the defective blocks scheme 44 times in various debates in this Chamber. More than 240 parliamentary questions have been put down by Members across the House. Yet, each time I have raised this matter with the Tánaiste or Taoiseach in whichever of the rotating roles they happen to be occupying at the time, the concerns and questions I have raised on behalf of my constituents in Donegal have been treated dismissively, with trumpeting talk of a €3.5 billion scheme, which is the biggest in the history of the State etc. Tuesday’s budget commits only €70 million next year to this flawed scheme, which includes the pyrite remediation scheme. It is less than what the Government is doling out to the horse and greyhound industry.

There is often a Pontius Pilate-like attitude to the Government's engagements on the issue. Today, I need more of a Pauline attitude if possible, since we are on the New Testament, as the Tánaiste said. I need the Tánaiste to listen and answer the question asked concisely without superfluous waffle. Due to the ineffectual leadership of the Government on this issue, affected homeowners in Donegal have taken the initiative in meeting with the banking industry, the insurance industry and various Ministers to articulate their concerns, and they have had good success where the Government has failed. One recent example is where they have secured with the banks, in principle, access to 0% finance to bridge the enormous gap in funding between what the Government's flawed scheme offers and the reality of what is needed.

Questions remain, however, on the lack of urgency regarding engagement from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, along with conflicting responses coming from the Government and the banking industry. Just this week, the banking and insurance focus group was informed by banks that there has been no dialogue on the damage clause-return to mortgageable condition under each of the remediation options between them and the Department. Homeowners need to know that when they engage with the scheme, their property will be returned to what the bank terms a mortgageable condition. The Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland, BPFI, has told the focus group that the Department is going establish a working group to look at the various financial issues raised, yet in a parliamentary question response to me on Tuesday there was no such commitment from the Minister.

My question is this. Will the Government commit to establishing a working group to look at the specific issues that the redress focus group on banking and insurance has identified and raised with the Ministers for Finance and Housing, Local Government and Heritage? Will the Government commit to including representation from the redress focus group on banking and insurance on that working group, alongside other relevant stakeholders?

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue but he should acknowledge that the Government has fundamentally overhauled the defective blocks scheme. The Remediation of Dwellings Damaged By the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 provides for 100% grant funding for eligible homeowners. It commenced on 22 June 2023 and regulations were adopted on 29 June this year. That enhanced scheme is now open for applications. It will provide financial support to affected homeowners in counties Donegal, Mayo, Limerick and Clare whose dwellings have been damaged by the use of defective concrete blocks.

Grants of up to €420,000 are available to affected homeowners, depending on the works required, under the scheme. Transitional arrangements for the transfer of applicants from the current scheme to the new enhanced scheme are in place. The final regulations were the result of extended and extensive consultation with key stakeholders, particularly local authorities and homeowner action groups. The enhanced scheme also provides an evidence-based system for new counties, or parts of counties, to be designated as required following a technical assessment by the Housing Agency. The new scheme is a remediation grant scheme of last resort put in place by the Government in order to voluntarily assist homeowners to remediate damage caused by the use of defective concrete blocks. There is no question about it and the Deputy knows the details of it. I find some of the language he used in dismissing the scheme difficult, especially when we are looking at a €2.3 billion commitment and provision for it.

The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage has set up an implementation steering group for the scheme comprising officials from relevant local authorities, the Department, the Housing Agency and the homeowners' liaison officer. In respect of the financial issue, again, the Department has had a number of engagements with the BPFI on specific issues raised by defective concrete block homeowners to see what can be done to address their concerns. The Department has received an interim funding proposal from the BPFI. Officials from the Department met on Thursday, 28 September to review and discuss with BPFI officials the proposals for a low-interest loan. Given its role in this area, the Department of Finance is currently engaging directly with the BPFI on the proposal. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage has stressed the need for a fair and consistent approach to be taken by the banking sector with customers dealing with the effects of defective concrete blocks on their houses.

Approximately 1,644 applications were received under the old scheme and 60 under the enhanced scheme up to 31 August this year. Some 340 of these applications were referred to the Housing Agency. These comprised 323 from County Donegal relating to the old scheme, nine from County Mayo with two relating to the enhanced scheme, and eight from County Clare. The total amount paid out so far to local authorities is about €24 million, which includes approximately €2.6 million related to administrative fees.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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The Tánaiste and Ministers continuously go on about a 100% redress scheme. The redress scheme is nowhere near 100% redress. Householders are looking at an average of €50,000 to €70,000 to pay for redress under the Government's 100% redress scheme. That is nonsensical. Every Minister continuously mentions 100% redress, as if it will happen if they say it often enough. It will not happen. That is the problem. The Government is doing nothing to engage with householders on how to bridge that gap. Householders have had to go out themselves to meet the banks, the Central Bank and those in the insurance industry. The banks have said to them that there have been no discussions about the mortgageable value of the house afterwards, which is how a homeowner could get a mortgage and sell his or her property after it is repaired under the so-called 100% redress scheme.

That is the question and that is the fact that families are facing right across the board. The Tánaiste spoke about the €2.3 billion scheme. Based on his own figures, it will take 40 or 50 years to spend that sum, based on the amount of redress that has taken place. This scheme is a problem that will go around for years to come and that people will have to live with. The reality is for this to even come close to being a 100% redress scheme, the banks have to be able to work with the people they give the loans to-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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-----actually give them the money to get into the scheme.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy. We are now over time.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Will the Tánaiste engage with them to make sure that happens? That is what I ask.

They are.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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They are not.

The Government is engaging with the BPFI. The Minister has, in the broader scheme, set up an implementation group in respect of delivering on it and people are applying to the scheme. I have met various groups on the past on this matter as well. There has been a lot of engagement particularly between the Department with responsibility for housing and other groups. I note the constant dismissal of what, by any yardstick or any precedent, is an unprecedented intervention that involves using the people's money - it is not our money - to try to help people to come through a terrible situation. There are many issues around the defective concrete block issue but the Government, in the interests of those homeowners, has decided to intervene to essentially rebuild their homes.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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The Government caused it.

The Government did not cause the crisis.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Yes, it did.

I do not accept that at all. That is for another day.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please Deputies.

The more important point is getting the houses built, getting delivery on the ground through the local authorities, getting action, and getting the thing done.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Tánaiste. The time is up.

We are interested in getting it done, moving on it and facilitating that. The Minister for Finance and the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage have facilitated this with the BPFI.