Dáil debates
Wednesday, 18 October 2017
Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed) - Priority Questions
Defence Forces Representative Organisations
3:45 pm
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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30. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence how he plans to address the concerns regarding working conditions in the Defence Forces raised at the recent PDFORRA conference; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [44190/17]
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I note and commend the work of Defence Forces personnel in responding to the damage inflicted by Storm Ophelia and in assisting citizens across the country. The work of the Defence Forces should be commended, particularly in light of the diminished numbers and resources with which they are dealing.
A number of issues of concern were outlined at the recent PDFORRA conference. I know they were not new to the Minister of State in any way. What are his plans to address the concerns about the working conditions in the Defence Forces that were raised at the PDFORRA conference?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I join Deputy Chambers in complimenting everyone in the Defence Forces, the Civil Defence, the Irish Red Cross and all the voluntary organisations. I would like to thank the officials in the Office of Emergency Planning and the various Departments for all their work in recent days.
I thank PDFORRA for its invitation to attend and address its annual conference, which was held in Cavan just over two weeks ago. The conference gave me an opportunity to listen to the concerns expressed by individual members and the executive of PDFORRA. The conference agenda and the various speeches covered a wide variety of issues, including pay, allowances, recruitment, retention, accommodation and the working time directive. I set out my perspective on various issues of concern to the members of PDFORRA in my address to them. The finalisation of negotiations with PDFORRA earlier this year under the Lansdowne Road agreement, followed by PDFORRA's acceptance of the agreement, allowed for the implementation of pay increases. It was appropriate that those increases were weighted in favour of those on lower pay. I was particularly pleased that the deal negotiated between the Departments of Defence and Public Expenditure and Reform and PDFORRA saw significant adjustments to the payscales of post-2013 general service recruits and privates.
The negotiations for an extension to the Lansdowne Road agreement that followed the publication of the report of the Public Service Pay Commission in May 2017 resulted in the public service stability agreement, which contains proposals for further pay increases of between 5.75% and 7.25% over its lifetime between 2018 and 2020, with the proposed increases being focused on the lower paid. The stability agreement provides that the Public Service Pay Commission will conduct a comprehensive examination and analysis of underlying difficulties in recruitment and retention. This flows from the commission's report, which identified that certain areas of the public service are experiencing difficulties in retaining personnel, particularly in specialist streams. The defence sector was highlighted as a priority. It is anticipated that further work by the Public Service Pay Commission will commence soon. I have initiated a review of the conciliation and arbitration scheme. I hope to finalise the terms of reference shortly. I will circulate them to the representative organisations for their information. I met the representative associations in advance of the official publication of the report of the climate study focus groups to hear their views. I have listened carefully to the feedback that was received. Work is well advanced on providing for the encompassing of the Defence Forces within the Organisation of Working Time Act. This particular item has the potential to change dramatically the manner in which the day-to-day work of the Defence Forces is monitored.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
The Government remains committed to ensuring the Permanent Defence Force reaches its strength ceiling of 9,500 personnel. Recruitment is ongoing. As announced in last week's budget, the Government has increased the defence capital allocation. This will see additional investment in equipment and infrastructure over the coming years. All these measures will enhance the capacity of the Defence Forces to undertake all roles assigned to them.
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not the case that as a result of the consistent neglect of the Defence Forces by this Government and its predecessor, things have reached the stage where minuscule pay increases and apparent improvements in working conditions will not be sufficient? The Minister of State and I have been doing this dance for quite some time, so we know that things are getting worse. Since I took up my position as Fianna Fáil's spokesperson on defence, I have been raising directly with the Minister of State issues like pay and conditions, the lack of a retention policy to bring an end to the mass exodus of members, the low levels of morale and the general crisis in our Defence Forces. I commend PDFORRA on its work in consistently highlighting to the Minister of State and every Member of this House the severe difficulties being faced by its members who are unable to pay their bills or put a roof over their heads. Increasing numbers of Defence Forces personnel are availing of family income supplement. There are huge problems. Many members of the Defence Forces are so disillusioned that they are looking to buy their way out. They do not want to wait until the end of their full terms. I accept that there has always been a certain level of turnover, but the number of people leaving the Defence Forces at present is unprecedented. The recruitment campaign is not plugging the gap because people are leaving at such a fast rate.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There is no retention policy to hold on to the personnel we have. When will the Minister of State put a concrete plan in place to address retention in our Defence Forces? When will he deal with the issue of morale in our Defence Forces? When will he provide for proper pay and conditions?
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please. You will have another minute for a further supplementary question.
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The members of our Defence Forces are the lowest paid workers in our public service.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Deputies not to exceed the amount of time available to them.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would encourage Deputy Chambers to mix with members of the Defence Forces to see how morale has changed over the last while.
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I meet them on a regular basis.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That is fine.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am not surprised that the Deputy is carrying on like this about public sector pay.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Minister of State. Stick to the answer.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am replying. I think I should be allowed the opportunity to reply.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I will allow you to do so.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am not surprised that Deputy Chambers is speaking about public sector pay. I would love to open the chequebook, but I am responsible. Those of us on this side of the House are taking a responsible approach to the country's economic future. When the Deputy's party and my party reached agreement on a programme for Government and a relationship for Government, the progress of the public pay talks was one of the issues we discussed. Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil both bought into that. As I made clear at the PDFORRA conference, we have to be responsible in this regard. I am happy that a young recruit who comes into the Defence Forces now gets €27,000 after six months of training, compared to €22,000 previously. This represents an increase of €5,000. Defence Forces personnel can get further increases if they sign up to the extended Lansdowne Road agreement. I decided to address a number of issues at the PDFORRA conference. This was very much welcomed by the members of PDFORRA. For example, I announced a review of the entire conciliation and arbitration system. I will appoint an independent chairperson to review it. As I said in my reply, I have almost signed off on the terms of reference. I will give them to PDFORRA and the Defence Forces to be finalised. The contracts that were initiated by Fianna Fáil-led Governments in 1994 and 2006 are also to be reviewed.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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You have gone way over time.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They are ludicrous and I can understand the frustrations of the members of the Defence Forces.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Minister of State, please.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They are resulting in the Defence Forces losing the services of young men and women. I want to review the whole contract system.
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State's party has been in Government for over six years. I accept that the Minister of State has a budgetary responsibility to the Government, but I remind him that as a Minister of State who essentially takes all the responsibility for the defence portfolio, he also has a duty to the men and women who are the members of the Irish Defence Forces. I do not believe he has advocated for them adequately in the context of next year's budget.
The Minister of State suggested that the contracts are prehistoric, but he has been in this Department for over six years. These issues have been highlighted to him for years, but he has not dealt with them. He is here now talking about the conciliation and arbitration process. I highlighted the deficiencies in that process months ago, prior to the pay talks. It is only now that an independent review is being conducted. I put it to the Minister of State that if the independent review is anything like the Air Corps review he conducted, we should not be holding our breath because that review did not work. The Minister of State needs to give assurances that this review will be conducted properly and that the person appointed to conduct it will have the competence and expertise to do so. We will need to see progress and results from it.
I have no doubt that the RACO conference will send a similarly strong message about the crisis in our Defence Forces.
While the Minister of State can say he has made progress, the facts remain the same. The numbers are diminishing and the strength is the lowest ever. We are nowhere near the 9,500 requirement, and we should really be at 10,500. There is no retention plan in place. While the Minister of State can talk about pay, he has not addressed conditions and the diminishing numbers in our Defence Forces.
3:55 pm
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not accept any of the accusations that the Deputy has thrown across the floor at me. It is interesting to note that the Deputy left out the contracts of 1994 and 2006 in her questioning.
Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned them.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There were issues raised at the PDFORRA conference, which I committed to address and delegates were very happy that I did so. They asked previous Ministers, including some from Fianna Fáil, to carry out a review of the CNA process. I have committed to doing that.
I considered the best way forward over the past number of months. I was not going to announce that I was going to review the CNA process following my appointment. Rather, I wanted to consider the best way forward and review other defence forces across Europe in terms of how they carry out their CNA processes. I was delighted to announce that we will have over 300 NCA promotions, some of whom are already in place.