Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for affording me the opportunity to raise the topic with my colleagues and I thank the Minister for Justice and Equality for being here in person. I think the Minister will agree with all of us that this is an unbelievably appalling scenario that has played out in front of our eyes in the past number of days. In the short amount of time allotted to me, I wish to make two main points.

The first relates to the independence of the inquiry that needs to take place and what happens to the report when it is given to the Ombudsman for Children. Will it be published and will we be able to dig deep into the reasons this was allowed to happen? I am willing to accept the bona fides of the gardaí and the HSE to a certain extent. I hope the Minister will agree with me that what is really at the core of this episode and circus is a pure, raw, naked and poisonous racism that lies at the heart of Irish society. This goes across the political system and into journalism, the gardaí and the HSE. We are willing to believe the worst of some of the communities that live in this land, most notably the Roma and Traveller communities. There are journalists and politicians who will not be involved in these investigations and will probably not appear in whatever report is produced on this situation who have significant questions to answer about the climate of fear and the undermining and dehumanising of communities that is taking place day in, day out in daily newspapers and our television screens that makes people in this country believe the worst of the Roma and Traveller communities and many other communities in this State. I will read out a line from a journalist from the Irish Independent who wrote a scurrilous piece about the Roma community recently. I must apologise for my language. The journalist discussed an encounter with a member of the Roma community. The article included the line "cue the usual bullshit you get from the Roma any time you challenge them - lots of spitting and evil-eye finger pointing". The article went on to state that:

But if we allow the Roma, or the indigenous junkies, to completely sap our native instinct to dip into our pocket when we see someone who is in a bad way then we won't just have lost one of the better aspects of our nature. We shall have given it away.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I have indulged the Deputy but his time is up.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I understand that my time is short and my colleagues want to come in. My two points relate to the independent nature of the investigation but also the responsibility of journalistic and political representatives to whom I may refer afterwards who are at the heart of this racism that is at the heart of this problem.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Tánaiste advised us this morning that we cannot jump to conclusions in respect of these horrendous cases and I agree. That said, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the evidence presented is that racial profiling occurred and these children were taken from their parents for one reason only - they were Roma and did not look like their parents. I sincerely believe that if they had been the adopted Vietnamese children of white parents, there is no way this would have happened. Both the Minister on the radio this morning and the Tánaiste have attempted to downplay the seriousness of what has happened here on the basis of the failure of the State to act in previous cases of concern regarding child welfare. It is clear that the State did fail previously and in other instances behaved in an over-the-top manner but the reality is that procedures have been put in place to deal with precisely these scenarios. In this case, the procedures were not followed. All the procedures say that the children should remain with their parents except in very exceptional circumstances but in this case, the last resort became the first option. This has been and will be deeply traumatic for the children and parents involved. An Irish pensioner who tearfully contacted my office this morning had been taken into care decades ago and still lives with that trauma.

Will the Minister give an unreserved apology to the families at the heart of this debacle? Will he commit to an independent investigation into what happened? Can he comment on the coincidence that his Department has been criticised by the EU for its lack of progress on Roma and Traveller integration? Is it not in some way culpable?

Is there a case to answer about the media frenzy and irresponsible journalism that took place? It has been clear for some time that elements in the Garda at senior level are feeding their pet poodles in the media. Will the Minister investigate this and take action in that regard? Finally and critically, is he aware that information on the records of Traveller children, some of whom are as young as 16 days old, are being input and updated on the PULSE system and what is he going to do about that type of racial profiling?

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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These two incidents are extremely serious and the investigations that the Minister has instigated are warranted. In particular, the incidents have had a terrible impact on two vulnerable children. However, we cannot forget the backdrop to this situation. In the past decade, more than 500 children have disappeared from HSE accommodation, some of whom were traced to brothels. Six out of seven of those children were never traced and are still missing. The trafficking of children for labour and sexual exploitation goes on around us. It is modern day slavery. The traffickers are now turning to Irish children. A recent report from the US State Department noted that Ireland is a destination, source and transit country for women, men and children subjected to sex trafficking and forced labour. It went on to point out that the number of identified Irish children subjected to sex trafficking within this country has increased. No words can adequately describe the horror of trafficking children for sexual exploitation or labour but it is happening around us in this country. I hope the controversy that has arisen will be thoroughly investigated and that the reports will be published but this should not divert us from the need to identify and prosecute traffickers, and to put them out of business.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What happened this week to two Roma and their families in Tallaght and Athlone is most disturbing. It is especially disturbing to all in these Houses who have long campaigned for children's rights and protections, and who invested considerable time and effort in realising a child protection system that is fit for purpose and in which we can all have confidence. What happened in these cases is a far cry from what we expect from the State's child services. Against a backdrop of what can only be described as despicable newspaper coverage, children were taken from their homes in what appears to be a naked and blunt case of racial profiling. Under the Child Care Act 1991, gardaí must have reasonable grounds for believing there is an immediate and serious risk to the child. On the basis of the information we have at present, this does not appear to be the case. If such a risk did exist, surely all of the children would have been removed from these families not just those with blonde hair and blue eyes. The speed of the intervention in these cases stands in marked contrast to the response times in many others, as highlighted last week by the Ombudsman for Children.

What were the reasonable grounds to believe that the children in these cases were at risk or in danger? Why were only the children whose physical appearance was difference to that of their parents removed from their family homes? Could the required tests not have been carried out without taking the children from their homes and parents?

It is not appropriate for the HSE and the Garda to be investigating themselves on such an important matter. We should not be waiting for their reports before the Ombudsman for Children takes direct responsibility for investigating these incidents. An independent inquiry from the outset is the best way to get the answers and the Ombudsman, Emily Logan, should be engaged with immediate effect.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Independent)
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For an individual, whether a child or an adult, to be removed from his or her family home and the care of his or her family is a traumatic experience. It is even more traumatic when there is no reasonable or sufficient grounds for doing so. These incidents have been accompanied by a frenzy. However, I am of the view that the authorities probably did act in good faith and we cannot go into a frenzy in the other direction by putting the boot into the authorities. The newspaper commentary that Deputy Ó Ríordáin mentioned is shameful and the journalist who wrote it and the editor who permitted it to be published should be ashamed of themselves. It is a matter that should be investigated by the Press Council.

I ask the Minister why the Ombudsman for Children or the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission will not be conducting an investigation in the first instance. The area of children being taken into care is a dark one in that we have limited information about it. Can the Minister furnish us with statistics on the children taken into care under section 12 of the Child Care 1991? There is merit to holding these cases in camera but perhaps the Minister will consider the matter further because I am concerned that the in camera rule shields the authorities as opposed to protecting the identity of children. That was probably not the intention but the authorities are not open to examination.

Where is the cross-over between the responsibilities of the Ministers for Justice and Equality, Children and Youth Affairs and Health in respect of implementing the Child Care Act?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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This debacle was caused by a disproportionate and unreasonable reaction on the part of the Garda and the HSE, which clearly demonstrated a lack of professionalism and an overly simplistic response to a media frenzy, to which their officials should be immune as law enforcement and health professionals. The emergency power granted to the Garda under section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 should only be used in exceptional circumstances where a garda reasonably believes that an immediate and serious risk is posed to the health or welfare of a child. It does not appear that such an emergency applied in these cases.

I am getting sick of gardaí relying on tabloid journalism for their intelligence and the manner in which information is supplied leaves much to be desired. In this instance, the Garda made decisions about child welfare based on tabloid journalism, ethnic categorisation and an unrelated case in Greece instead of rationally considering the independent evidence and the principles of reasonableness and proportionality. As law enforcement professionals they should be immune to media frenzy. The family in the Tallaght case had been living in that area for seven years and they had extensive contact with the Garda but it was only when the story about the Greece case appeared in the newspapers that an emergency operation was put in place to remove the child. As Dr. Carol Coulter pointed out last night, if the Garda was really motivated by the child's welfare rather than racial prejudice, why were the child's four siblings left behind?

The Minister's response to Garda misconduct has again been weak, similar to the penalty points controversy. Is he scared of gardaí? Do they have something on him? He has again ordered an internal review and his friend, the Garda Commissioner, has appointed another commissioner to investigate internally the force's malpractice and misconduct rather than a human rights expert with experience in racial issues. This is contrary to the type of independent review called for by Pavee Point and the Irish Traveller Movement. An independent public inquiry is required instead of the HSE and the Garda reviewing themselves. An internal review by gardaí of the conduct of gardaí is not going to be impartial and will not meet constitutional standards of fairness. We need to accept the fact that the Garda is not outside the law and no law enforcement force anywhere in the world should be allowed to self-regulate. It is disappointing that the Minister does not intend to publish these reports. It is another example of the lack of transparency and accountability in the Garda. I do not understand why the Minister is so unwilling to hold the force to account.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for raising a very important issue. There has, of course, been understandable public interest in two cases which have come to light in recent days involving children with Roma families. As I have stated already, we are all pleased and relieved that the concerns that arose on the part of the authorities in these two cases have proved to be unfounded and that the children have been reunited with their families, where they belong. I am, as we all are, particularly conscious of the regrettable distress that arose for the two families and their children. I want to state again, quite clearly, that no fault of any nature attaches to the two families concerned.

It is important that we all remember the context in which these cases have arisen, where concerns have been expressed by members of the public in regard to the protection of individual children. Child protection is a most complex and sensitive issue and I am sure Deputies will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the detail of individual child protection cases and that I cannot depart from that practice simply because of the particular circumstances of the cases under discussion. That being said, I think it important that I make a number of points.

An Garda Síochána and the HSE have to deal with very difficult situations and have to make very difficult decisions when dealing with issues of child protection. They can be open to criticism for either doing something or criticism for doing nothing. We are all aware of cases in the past where the authorities have been criticised for not intervening to protect children at risk. In each of these cases, the authorities responded in good faith to concerns expressed to them.

The law provides clear powers for An Garda Síochána and the HSE where it is believed that a child may be in danger. The courts are also involved in making the appropriate decisions. Urgent procedures are available, and indeed necessary, to ensure that the safety of a child can be assured while appropriate inquiries are being made. Such actions by the authorities are inevitably distressing for parents. However, the Garda and the HSE are faced with the reality that not invoking the procedures could involve taking a risk with the safety of a child. This is the difficult and complex reality these front-line staff face when they have to make such decisions based on the information they have at that time.

In each of these cases, the gardaí responded in good faith to concerns reported to them. I am conscious that the events under discussion took place against a backdrop of events which took place outside this State. In seeking to ensure that the welfare of children is fully and properly safeguarded and that every child in this State is afforded, where necessary, the protection of the State, it is of vital importance that no group or minority community is singled out for unwarranted attention or, indeed, suspicion in regard to child protection issues. Neither is it in any way acceptable that families or individuals are in any way treated differently because of their ethnic backgrounds or religious faiths. Neither can or should be a factor in determining when child care intervention is required.

It is regrettable that, in the context of calling for an independent inquiry, a number of the contributors to this debate have already reached conclusions. The conclusions they have reached are that there was racism involved and that the Garda is involved in racial profiling. One cannot call for an independent inquiry and, at the same time, reach conclusions and give the reasons for why events have occurred. Let me be absolutely clear in this - I would regard racial profiling as utterly unacceptable. Indeed, I have spent a substantial period of time as Minister for Justice and Equality in dealing with the issue of racism across Europe. We made it a particular issue during the Irish Presidency.

It is of substantial importance that gardaí only intervene pursuant to section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 where there are reasonable grounds for believing that there are immediate risks to the safely and welfare of a child. It is important to ascertain what lessons can be learned from these cases. That is why I have requested the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána to provide me with a full report on the background circumstances that led to each of these children being taken into care and the procedures that were followed. My colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, has similarly asked for a full report from the HSE.

This is not about, as Deputy Wallace wishes to allege, the Garda or the HSE investigating itself. This is what is known as good practice. One asks the two bodies to provide, within a short period of time, a detailed report on what has occurred, and then one refers it to an independent individual to take what steps are required. The House will be aware that the Ombudsman for Children has the function of promoting the rights and welfare of children. The legislation specifies that this function includes monitoring and reviewing generally the operation of legislation concerning matters that relate to the rights and welfare of children. In addition, the Ombudsman may be requested to give advice to Ministers on any matter. Against this background, we propose to provide the Ombudsman with the reports prepared by the Health Service Executive and An Garda Síochána and ask her to examine what occurred. She will independently - I emphasise independently - carry out this function and be free to raise any question of relevance with regard to the events that occurred and also to engage with the parents of the children who were temporarily taken into care. I have already had preliminary discussions with the Ombudsman for Children and I understand she has been contacted by the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald's Department. I have been assured by the Garda authorities that they will, of course, co-operate fully with any inquiry she wishes to make and will respond fully to any inquiry that she may make. I have no doubt that this will be the case in relation to the HSE as well.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has gone over time.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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If I could adequately answer in conclusion the questions that have been raised. Deputy Timmins raised the issue of in camera proceedings. There are amendments made to the Courts Act that went through the House before the end of July that will ensure that we have greater transparency when there are child care cases before our courts. That transparency will provide protection still for the anonymity of individuals and the anonymity of children in the best interests of children.

A further issue that I am concerned about that Deputies have raised-----

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has gone very much over time.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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-----is the extent to which matters relating to these two cases appeared in newspapers. That is a matter that will be the subject of the inquiry that is being made. It will be a matter, I have no doubt, that the Ombudsman for Children will address. We must ensure that when intervention is taken in any child care matter in the best interests of children, the anonymity of the child and of the family is preserved in the best interests of children while also in the future having maximum transparency with regard to court proceedings so that there is a full public understanding of the manner in which our courts deal with this matter. I will perhaps come back to one or two questions I did not have time to deal with in my further response.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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There will be another opportunity. Each Member has one minute to raise a question or make a brief comment.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I am not a member of the Roma community, but if I was, I would not trust anyone at the moment - the Garda, the HSE, any politician and certainly not a journalist, particularly as I would have been portrayed in recent months as some sort of subspecies, demanding of Irish society that the worst be thought of me. This is why it is so crucial that we get this investigation right. If we want the Roma community, the Traveller community or any disadvantaged or marginalised community to feel as if it belongs in this Republic, its members must see transparency and accountability. They must believe in the system and there must be a level of independence. If we get this wrong, I fear for the future of this country and the potential integration of the Roma community in this Republic. If it is happening to Roma today, it will happen to someone else tomorrow.

I plead with the Minister. We could be at a crossroads in our relations with the Roma community and many other communities that live in this Republic. If they do not believe in the State's institutions and if those institutions let them down this time, we will regret it in the years to come and we will deserve all that we get.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister accused this side of the House of predetermining the outcome of an independent inquiry. He did the same when he stated as fact that the Garda had acted in good faith. We do not know that yet. The Minister has again attempted to minimise the situation. He will not get away with it. He is using people's legitimate concerns about child safety to undermine and mask the seriousness of what has happened, which can only be explained by racism. I say this because the clearly defined procedure for dealing with child welfare issues was not followed. The HSE was not invoked and a court hearing did not take place before the children were removed. The only evidence that we have heard is that the child did not look like the parents.

The Minister recognises that the media has a role in this matter. I will ask him two simple questions. Gardaí leaking information to the media has become a staple diet. It is a criminal activity.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should ask her second question.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister take action to deal with this scenario? He stated that racial profiling was not acceptable. Will he confirm to the House that he was not privy to information about gardaí uploading information about Traveller infants to the PULSE system, that it has not taken place and that he has had the matter investigated? It is all part of the same process.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I welcome the fact that the Minister is investigating the leaks and the media coverage of this matter. It is imperative that we get answers to those issues.

I will echo the comments made by Deputy Timmins.

The background to this is the trafficking of children. We know that our laws need to be modernised concerning the exploitation and trafficking of children. Some 13 years ago, Ireland signed the Protocol on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution and Child Pornography, but when will we ratify it?

This particular incident highlights the need for the proper training and resourcing of An Garda Síochána. Will such training be provided to gardaí to enable them to identify vulnerable children and trafficked children, thus ensuring we can secure prosecutions?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I fail to understand why we would hold back or defer the involvement of the Ombudsman for Children, or any other independent office that would take on the responsibility of investigating these instances. The Ombudsman for Children is an appropriate office whose expertise and focus could be directed on this matter with immediate effect. Let us not cod ourselves. The Garda Síochána and the HSE will carry out their own internal inquiries in any case. Why should we delay? It would inject a greater urgency into both the HSE and Garda Síochána's efforts to explore in full and internally what has happened in these cases.

I appeal to the Minister to follow up on the contacts with the Office of the Ombudsman for Children to initiate her immediate inquiry into this matter. That is what is required given the seriousness of what has taken place. I hope that her remit will go beyond that of investigating the role of the Garda Síochána and the HSE, to include the serious matter of the media's disposition concerning such sections of our wider community in this country today. In this regard, some of what is currently presented as journalism is reprehensible.

I hope the critical questions that we have put on the record will be answered. These concern the issues of reasonable grounds, why the other children were not taken into care, and whether the tests could not have been carried out without removing the children from their homes.

Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Independent)
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I want to find out the truth about this situation as much as anybody else in this House. On many occasions with which we are familiar, various State authorities have acted unethically and unlawfully. It would be slightly hypocritical of us on this side of the House if we were to castigate the bad treatment of both families in this situation by equally castigating the authorities that dealt with them. I work on the premise that the authorities of this State operate in good faith until such time as I am shown otherwise. That does not mean, however, that they should not be open to scrutiny and examination. It is important we have confidence in this State's authorities which, by and large, operate in a correct manner.

These two cases have come to light but have similar cases occurred in recent years? If that information is available, I would like the Minister to provide it. I would like to know if something similar has happened whereby other children have been taken into care without a basis for doing so.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Much like the penalty points controversy, the Minister says he will send the results of an already constitutionally flawed and biased investigation to the children's Ombudsman for review. The children's Ombudsman will only be reviewing a biased report, which is not primary evidence, and she cannot ask questions. This is entirely unsatisfactory. The Minister and his PR machine are attempting to impart a sheen of legitimacy to this flawed approach by asking for the children's Ombudsman's stamp of approval on another internal review.

Likewise, the Minister is not publishing the terms of reference. It would appear again that the focus of the review is narrow. It is just wide enough to satisfy the public, but not enough to cause any real change within the culture of the Garda Síochána.

I am sure the Minister is well aware that in February 2013, the report of the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance found that the Garda Síochána engages in racial profiling. The commission called on the Irish Government to introduce legislation to prohibit racial profiling. This is an opportunity for the State and the Garda Síochána to initiate a Stephen Lawrence type of inquiry and to assess the conduct, codes and protocols of the Garda Síochána.

In his book on human rights and policing, Professor Dermot Walsh states that we cannot say whether Garda codes, practices and procedures are human rights compliant because these codes and protocols are not published. Professor Walsh said there is a need for cultural change, transparency, accountability to the public and human rights compliance in the Garda Síochána. Is the Minister brave enough, and does he have the courage, to bring this about?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is most unfortunate that on a very serious issue relating to child protection we are subjected to Deputies Clare Daly and Wallace engaging in their usual obsessive attacks to entirely undermine public confidence in An Garda Síochána. The Deputies cannot make up their minds if they want to protect children or just attack An Garda Síochána. This is a serious area of children protection. Section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 provides an important instrument to ensure that where children are at immediate risk, the Garda can intervene. On occasions when intervention takes place, not all the information is known. The reason we have a courts system is so that once there has been an intervention, matters can be addressed in the Children's Court and issues can be properly clarified.

In the context of these two cases, I am making no prejudgments, as the Deputies are.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We are not.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I do not have an agenda which is to denigrate the Garda, nor do I have an agenda to defend something that is indefensible. I am not going to ask the children's Ombudsman to exercise independent oversight, look into this matter independently, and jump to conclusions before she does so. It is a gross misrepresentation, but it suits the Deputy's narrative, to suggest that gardaí are being asked to investigate themselves and that, as Deputy Wallace put it, the children's Ombudsman is being asked to rubber-stamp that investigation.

The Garda is being asked, as the HSE is being asked by my colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, to provide a full and detailed report on the background of what occurred. These reports will be given to the Ombudsman for Children who will be free to ask any questions of any nature that are relevant to what has occurred and to report and make recommendations. That is the correct and appropriate way to go. Is anyone in this House suggesting the Ombudsman for Children will do anything other than act independently, appropriately and in a manner on which we can rely?

I will deal with other issues quickly. I am conscious of Deputy Naughten's interest in these areas, but he has said twice in this House that the background to these matters is the trafficking of children. The trafficking of children is an issue about which I have had a great concern for a long time. As Minister I have been doing whatever I can to address that area. We cannot assume, however, that the background to these cases had anything to do with the trafficking of children. In fairness to the two families, no one has suggested that they are in any way trafficking children. I ask people to be careful of the language they are using. I presume that was not the Deputy's intent.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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No, it was not my intention.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the area of trafficking children, section 12 of the Child Care Act, which allows the immediate intervention by An Garda Síochána, is crucial. There are many cases in which the Garda, in consultation with the HSE, intervenes to protect children.

Deputy Timmins asked for statistics. I can provide data on the use of section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991. In 2010, there were 728 instances of it being utilised to protect children at immediate risk. In 2011, the figure was 751, in 2012, it was 764, and to date in 2013, it has been 582.

Deputy Ó Caoláin and the Tánaiste are right that in these two particular cases there are questions to be answered. This is why we are travelling this route. As Minister, I have questions that I want answered.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister will not give the answers.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I will not undermine in any way the credibility of the important role the Garda generally plays in the area of child protection, in consultation with the HSE.

They are somewhere between a rock and a hard place. If there is a report of a child at risk and they do not intervene and something goes wrong the Garda are criticised. Equally, if there is a report of a child at risk and they do intervene and it proves to be the case that the report was inaccurate the Garda are criticised. It is important we deal with this in a considered and temperate way. I look forward to the Ombudsman for Children engaging on this matter, raising each and every question of relevance and, ultimately, publicly reporting.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister answer the question about his knowledge of racial profiling of Traveller children on the PULSE system?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister only answers the questions he wants to answer.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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It is directly relevant.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We are moving on to Topical Issue No. 3.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister answer the question in regard to racial profiling of Traveller children on the PULSE system and his knowledge in that regard?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister is complicit.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Both Deputies are a disgrace.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We have concluded that matter. I call Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy.