Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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There obviously is septic confusion coming from the Acting Chairman following his exploits in Dundrum over the weekend.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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It was not his fault.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I raised this topic for debate because it is causing considerable concern within the Gaeltacht part of County Kerry and in other Gaeltacht areas nationwide. While there have been adverse changes to the pupil-teacher ratio across the board that will have a similar detrimental impact, that on Gaeltacht schools is being aggravated by the abolition of the discretionary ratio that used to be in place. This means the minimum number of pupils required for a four-teacher school has risen from 81 to 83 but in Gaeltacht areas, where the minimum previously was 76 pupils, a school now requires 83 pupils to qualify for a fourth teacher. As this number will be increased to 86 for all schools by 2014, the consequential increase in Gaeltacht areas will be 10 pupils, compared with five pupils elsewhere.

The increase in the required enrolment means Scoil Naomh Eoin Baiste, Lispole, will lose one teacher next September. This is a serious blow for a small rural school that will have a serious impact on the education provided. This impact was worsened because the school authorities had thought they had fulfilled the necessary criteria up until last September, when 80 pupils were enrolled. While this number exceeded the criterion of 76 pupils, it was then arbitrarily and without prior notice increased to 81 pupils. Subsequently, the school was informed it would need to have 83 pupils enrolled next September or it would lose another teacher. According to information in my possession, unless rescinded the new pupil-teacher ratio will mean that 13 of the 14 schools in the County Kerry Gaeltacht will lose teachers over the next three years. This will have a further detrimental impact on Gaeltacht areas in general and obviously, any movement of children and families to other areas, which might be one of the consequences, will accelerate the decline of Irish as the first spoken language in these regions.

As with other cutbacks that are being made, the bottom line appears to be solely financial. People who support increasing the pupil-teacher ratio always will be able to produce evidence that it makes no difference. Apart from the existence of a large body of evidence to support the opposite, it is strange that some people only discover the scientific argument for increasing the ratio when their own party does so. Apart from the educational argument in favour of retaining the lower ratio, there also is the argument in favour of retaining the schools, which many believe will be forced to close. I have heard some teachers and parents express the suspicion that this is the real object of the exercise. That would have a great impact on local communities in general and an even greater impact on Gaeltacht communities in particular, given the central role of the language in the education of children, who may in future be forced to travel to schools outside their own communities. I ask the Minister to reconsider the changes to teacher-pupil ratios across the board and that in addition, at the very least, he should restore the discretionary ratio for Gaeltacht schools.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I am taking this topical issues debate on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn. I thank Deputy Ferris for raising the matter as it affords me the opportunity to explain to the House the reasoning behind the changes to the staffing schedule.

Schools in Gaeltacht areas historically have operated the same staffing schedule as ordinary schools for the creation of a classroom teaching post at primary level. However, a slightly more favourable schedule operated for the Gaeltacht schools to retain a post between the bands of four and 12 classroom teachers. There was no increase in the budget in the general average of a pupil-teacher ratio of 28:1 used to allocate teachers to primary schools, including Gaeltacht schools, and this is something for which many people across the education sector had called. However, the budget did include a phased increase in the pupil threshold for the allocation of classroom teachers in small primary schools.

The only thing that is changing for small schools is that their average class sizes will no longer be as advantageous as they have been in the past due to the phased increases in the pupil thresholds in the staffing schedule. I am aware that some schools claim they will have more pupils in the school next September than they had last September and that some allowance should be made in such a situation. The existing staffing appeals process can be accessed by those schools that are projecting increased enrolment that would be sufficient to allow them to retain their existing classroom posts over the longer term. Details of this appeals process and how it will operate will be made clear as part of my Department's forthcoming circular. It will issue shortly to all schools on the staffing arrangements for the 2012-13 school year.

Even when all of the phased increases are implemented, the threshold for a second teacher at 20 pupils still will be significantly lower than the minimum of 28 pupils that was required for the appointment of a second teacher in rural schools prior to the late 1990s. I stress strongly that school communities should have no reason to feel there will be a forced closure or a forced amalgamation of their local schools. Rural communities, including those in the Gaeltacht, represent a cornerstone of Irish heritage and the schools in rural Ireland are in turn the cornerstone of these communities.

Achieving savings in my Department's budget has required the making of some very difficult decisions at a time when the school-going population is increasing. We want to be as fair as possible in making such decisions. One third of all public sector employees in this State work in the education sector. It is simply not possible, therefore, to completely exempt staffing levels in education from the Government's need to reduce expenditure. I have trust and confidence in the capacity of school principals and teachers to play their part in making the best use of their available resources in order to achieve the best possible educational outcomes for pupils.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I take no comfort from the Minister of State's reply. The population in the Gaeltacht areas in my constituency is declining as a result of emigration. For primary schools with eight classes, the loss of one teacher can mean that those who remain on the staff are obliged to cover a range of classes. Stating that the pupil-teacher ratio in the schools to which I refer is less than 28:1 does not take into account the number of classes which the teachers employed in those schools must take. There is a belief that what is being done here is a ploy to force the amalgamation of schools. As a result of the declining population to which I refer, many schools in the Gaeltacht areas in my constituency will have to close. As a result, it will be necessary for pupils from those areas to travel outside them to obtain an education. The Government's policy in this regard is contributing to the forced decline of the Irish language. Essentially, that policy is one of discrimination against the language.

In the context of the negotiations that will take place with principals in Gaeltacht areas in the coming days and weeks, I hope there will be an understanding with regard to the major role the schools to which I refer play in trying to ensure our language survives. In addition, account must be taken of the fact that the loss of a teacher from one of these schools exacerbates the problems experienced by those he or she leaves behind.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I reiterate that there is no attempt on the part of the Government somehow to set aside the very important work being done in furthering the national language and ensuring those who wish to pursue their education through it are given support in every way possible. The preferential pupil-teacher ratios that exist in the small rural school system are in place for a reason. Deputy Martin Ferris outlined the fact that teachers in these schools are obliged to teach in a multi-class environment. My mother taught four classes - quite successfully, I hope - in a small rural school for 42 years. The pupil-teacher ratios that will obtain in small rural schools following the introduction of the various changes by 2014 will still be significantly more advantageous than those which exist across the remainder of the rural school network. By that date, it will still be possible for a teacher in a two-teacher school teaching ten pupils. That will remain - and rightly so - a significant advantage to such teachers and it reflects the fact that they are obliged to teach in a multi-class environment.

At a time when the public finances are under great strain, we must ensure that the very valuable but limited resources available to us will be used in the very best way possible. I do not believe, and I am sure Deputy Martin Ferris will agree with me in this regard, that it is sustainable to have someone teaching only six pupils. Such a scenario can arise under the current system. I have every confidence in the capacity of school principals to play their part in making the best possible use of the resources to which I refer.

On numerous occasions in recent months, both the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, have stressed that on their watch no rural school will be forced to close or amalgamate without the express wish of the local community involved. Our policy in this regard is directly opposed to that being pursued by Deputy Martin Ferris's colleague, the Northern Ireland Minister for Education. The latter recently stated that any school with fewer than 105 students cannot operate properly and cannot provide a proper educational experience to the children who attend it. In September of last year, the Northern Ireland Minister for Education indicated that it would not be possible to plan in respect of the education system in that jurisdiction on the basis of school buildings but rather that such plans would have to be based on the needs of pupils. He said: "One third of our 863 primary schools have fewer than 100 enrolled", and that "difficult, sometimes unpopular, but necessary, decisions" would have to be taken to reduce that number.

The Government has never stated that it will forcibly close or amalgamate any schools. However, Deputy Martin Ferris's colleague, who works less than 100 miles from this House, is about to engage in a process designed to do precisely that. A little honesty and less hypocrisy in respect of these matters would, therefore, be appreciated-----

Dan Neville (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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-----and would make what Deputy Martin Ferris and his colleagues in Sinn Féin have to say seem much more credible.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State is obviously not very well acquainted with the Six Counties. I can understand that because he has hardly ever visited the place. He probably does not even understand who is responsible for funding the Six Counties. In this State, taxpayers - including the Minister of State, me and everyone else in this House - are responsible for funding education.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We must move on to the next topic.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Who is responsible for-----

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is not talking about funds.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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The victims of the Government's policy will be school-going children.

Dan Neville (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should not be denying his party's policies.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Teachers who are removed from the type of schools to which I refer will be employed elsewhere.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is correct.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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However, the pupils attending those schools will be victimised as a result of the Government's policy and those opposite do not give a good goddamn about that.