Dáil debates
Thursday, 24 June 2010
Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010: Second Stage
1:00 pm
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I am pleased to introduce the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010 and I look forward to an informed debate during its passage through the House. As the House is aware, the renewed programme for Government includes a commitment to introduce legislation to prohibit the practice of deer hunting with a pack of dogs. This short Bill provides for the banning of this particular hunting practice. In addition, I have taken the opportunity to increase the maximum fines for wildlife-related offences, which were last increased in 2000.
I would like to put on the record of the House the fact that the decision to prohibit the hunting of deer with a pack of hounds was not taken lightly. Section 26(1) of the 1976 Act provides that I, as Minister, may grant to the master or other person in charge of a pack of stag hounds a licence authorising the hunting of deer by that pack during such period or periods as is or are specified in the licence. However, the Act does not provide criteria for awarding or refusing a licence.
As Deputies are aware, there is only one stag hound pack in the State, which operates in County Meath. When I became Minister in June 2007, I had concerns from an animal welfare and a public safety point of view relating to the operation of the hunt meetings operated by the hunt club in question. These concerns were shared by some of my predecessors.
The hunt club in question maintains a herd of domesticated red deer in purpose-built deer parks that adjoin its hunt kennels. Its hunting season normally runs from mid-October to the end of March. Approximately 50 meetings are held during this period. It is not acceptable to allow a hunt with hounds and horses of what is essentially a farm animal. We do not consider it acceptable to set dogs in pursuit of any other farmed animal. Furthermore, there are public safety issues, as it is simply not possible for the hunt to prevent deer in flight from leaping through hedges onto public roads. I recall an incident last December during one of their hunt meetings when a deer had to be put down after it had leapt onto a road and collided with a car. I find this incident totally unacceptable even though I understand that fortunately on that occasion there were no injuries to the occupants of the car. Many Deputies are aware of a previous serious incident when a deer being chased by the hounds leaped into a school yard just as the school day was finishing. At the time there was a great deal of disquiet about this type of hunting. I have been told about other incidents anecdotally, but from reliable sources, that suggest these are not isolated incidents.
The Government, therefore, decided the animal welfare and public safety concerns relating to stag hunting could only be addressed by banning this hunting practice. The Bill itself is short and simple. Section 2 provides for the deletion of the section in the 1976 Wildlife Act that allows me as Minister to grant a licence for the hunting of deer with pack of hounds.
Section 3 seeks to achieve a number of objectives. First, it redefines deer for the purposes of the legislation so that the term includes any deer that is not a wild animal. This expanded definition of "deer" has been incorporated into the Bill to ensure there is no argument that the hunting of captive deer might not require a licence under the Wildlife Acts.
Second, it makes it an offence to hunt deer with two or more dogs but it provides for a situation where it may be necessary to pursue deer with two or more dogs, if a person has received permission under section 42 of the Wildlife Acts. Section 42 offers a facility, outside the open season, whereby a person can obtain permission, on a case by case basis, to take action against a protected species, including deer, which can include the scaring, capturing or killing of the said species in a situation where serious damage is being caused to agricultural corps, forestry plantations, other fauna, etc. There may be occasions when it is necessary or useful to bring dogs to assist in moving deer from areas where they are causing serious damage, for example, in young forestry plantations. It is good practice to use dogs to assist in the recovery of fallen deer.
Since the Bill was published some groups representing deer stalkers have raised an issue with officials of my Department relating to section 3, which might inadvertently affect their legitimate hunting practices. It is not unusual for a deer stalker to bring a dog hunting deer. This is especially true in woodlands, where a dog can be used to retrieve fallen game that sometimes can be concealed in undergrowth. In cases where several hunters are stalking deer on a property and each had a dog, or if they were bringing two dogs for training purposes, it could be construed that they were breaking the law based on section 3. It was never my intention that the Bill should place any restriction on lawful deer stalking. Accordingly, in order to allay these fears, I will table an amendment on Committee Stage, such that it is not an offence for people stalking deer and with a deer licence to have more than two dogs.
I will table a further amendment to the Bill on Committee Stage to address a problem which has recently arisen in regard to licences to shoot game during the open seasons. The Wildlife Act requires a hunter to have a licence to hunt certain birds, such as wildfowl, and hares, and made provision that this would be obtained as an endorsement on the hunter's firearm certificate. Both the hunting licence and the firearm certificate were issued by An Garda Síochána in the form of a shotgun licence with the appropriate endorsement for hunting.
However, when new, computerised procedures were introduced in 2009 for issuing three-year firearms certificates, the facility for issuing the endorsement as a wildlife hunting licence was omitted. As a result, new firearms certificates do not provide for a hunting licence attachment and therefore do not meet the legal requirements of the existing Wildlife Acts. Consequently, hunters issued with new firearms certificates were not be able to hunt legally. I understand that by the time the oversight was identified, it was not practicable to recall the certificates issued nor to change the licensing process in train.
In order to address this problem, I will table an amendment on Committee Stage to amend the Wildlife Acts so that a firearms certificates issued for a shotgun, between 1 August 2009 and 1 August 2012, will be deemed to be a hunting licence for game species such as wildfowl and hares. In the interim, arrangements will be made between my Department and the Department of Justice Equality and Law Reform to revert to a situation where the hunting licence is endorsed on the firearms certificate. This does not affect the current system of issuing licences for shooting deer.
I refer to the other part of the Bill relating to the increase in penalties for wildlife related crime. Section 4 of the Bill provides for increased penalties for offences under the Wildlife Acts. I have decided to increase these penalties, as they have not been increased since 2000. I am increasing maximum fines such that on summary conviction the maximum fine is increased to €1,000 from £500 for a first offence, to €2,000 from £1,000 for a second offence and to €5,000 from £1,500 for a third or subsequent offence. In addition, the maximum fine for conviction on indictment is increased to €100,000 from £50,000. There are no changes in maximum times of imprisonment terms.
I consider it vitally important that the State uses every means at its disposal to ensure our natural heritage is protected. This includes our wildlife and habitats. In this international year of biodiversity, we must continue to maintain and enhance our wildlife under the obligations of the UN Convention on Biological Diversity. The new penalties proposed in the Bill are proportionate. I am sure the House will support the increased fines.
Turning to general reaction to the proposed legislation, I reject the notion that this Bill is an attack on country pursuits.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is an attack on people in County Meath.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Bill will deal with-----
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should mind his own business and look after the incinerator. Someone must tell him the truth.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Bill will deal with three issues only - prohibiting deer hunting with packs of dogs, increasing the various penalties for wildlife related offences, and addressing the problem which has arisen with licences for hunting wild game. No other amendments to the Wildlife Acts are proposed in the Bill. I have stated on a number of occasions that the passage of this legislation will not have an impact on other country practices such as fox-hunting, hare-hunting, hare coursing and deer stalking.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That is not what Green Party members are saying.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Please Deputy McEntee, you will have your opportunity to contribute later.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Anyone reading this short Bill will clearly see that it does not have an impact on other country pursuits.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should tell the truth.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McEntee, please.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McEntee is all right.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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There have been misleading and exaggerated media reports over the past few months from various hunting organisations that this Bill is evidence of an all-out attack on the hunting fraternity. Let us have some facts and figures to dispel this notion. In 2007, my first year in office as Minister, there were over 4,500 various licences issued by my Department under the Wildlife Acts. The corresponding figure for 2009 was over 6,200 licences. Approximately 70% of these licences are issued to deer stalkers who, needless to say, will not be affected by this legislation.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It cost €400,000 when it was done incorrectly.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I hardly think this constitutes an attack on traditional field sports and rural pastimes, as one of the recently formed organisations claimed. The vast majority of people involved in legal hunting in this country will have nothing to fear from the enactment of this Bill. My Department will still be issuing licences for deer hunting. Fox hunting is not affected by this Bill.
While I appreciate the hunt has been in operation for over 150 years, the banning of stag hunting with hounds does not necessarily mean the members of the hunt must give up hunting activities altogether. The hunt has the option of continuing their local hunting, perhaps as a drag hunt which would still allow them to use hounds.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister will ban that too when he gets his way.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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It has been said that this Bill, along with the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill, is evidence of an attack on rural Ireland. I am aware that some Deputies have concerns with regard to certain aspects of the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill and I have given assurances that I will table amendments to this Bill during its passage through this House to address these concerns. Any suggestion that the Dog Breeding Establishment Bill is an attack on rural Ireland and its pursuits is scaremongering of the worst order.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should tell that to the people in County Meath.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McEntee will have an opportunity to speak later.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will take the opportunity.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I am not surprised by the Fine Gael attitude-----
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am glad the Minister is not surprised.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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-----but I am disappointed at the cynical decision by the Labour Party to abandon its opposition to blood sports.
Michael D HigginsJohn Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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It is on the record. In the past-----
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The past is Fianna Fáil politics.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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-----senior members of the party, including its current leader, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, and the former leaders, Deputy Pat Rabbitte and Deputy Ruarí Quinn, publicly stated their opposition to blood sports, including stag hunting. It is all on the record. Now, in a complete U-turn, the party is to vote in favour of blood sports when the wildlife Bill to ban stag hunting comes before the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is a sad day for politics in Ireland when the Labour Party decides to vote in support of the continuation of a blood sport. It appears that for the Labour Party Members, no principle is too cherished to be abandoned if they believe there are votes in it for them.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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What about incineration?
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Three years ago, Deputy Eamon Gilmore was urging an end to stag hunting as he considered the stag to be a domesticated animal and now his party has deemed itself satisfied that this practice should be allowed to continue. For the Labour Party, the vote on stag hunting is about more than animal welfare. It is a test of the party's convictions and principles. It is a test of whether the Labour Party's politicians' words or promises on animal welfare or any other issue mean anything in 2010.
I say to the Deputy opposite that what we are talking about is a domesticated animal. I want people outside this House to imagine that if-----
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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What about the 30,000 deer killed illegally?
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I am sure the Deputy opposite has a domesticated pet.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will allow him to continue but he has done nothing about that.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I want to explain the seriousness of this issue to the Deputy. It is very easy to understand.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Deputy McEntee should try listening.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will not listen to the Deputy. Half the country is not listening to him.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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If the Deputy has a domesticated animal at home and if a number of people came to him and said they wanted to hunt that animal down with hounds and people on horseback, I believe he would be rightly outraged, even if they said they would give the animal back to him in one piece. That animal would be running for its life, and the deer in Meath is running for its life. That is unacceptable and uncivilised.
I reiterate that the Bill as published has two main purposes: to ban the practice of hunting deer with a pack of hounds and to increase the various fines for wildlife related offences. As I have outlined, I will bring forward an amendment on Committee Stage to resolve the issues of licences to shoot wild game.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The vast majority of people engaged in hunting activities will continue to enjoy their pastimes following the enactment of this legislation. I look forward to engaging in constructive debate on this legislation, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Fine Gael will be opposing this legislation. I know that does not cause the Minister any surprise, no more than it causes any surprise that he would bring forward narrow legislation at a time of serious economic and social problems in the country, but the zealousness with which he spoke and the commitment he has given towards this agenda surprises most people in the House.
We all have known for a long time that the Minister has a solid commitment towards the removal of animal field sports throughout the country. He and his party are on record banning live cattle exports, and he has been photographed on a number of occasions on protest marches in regard to those issues. It is not credible for the Minister to suggest this is not the thin end of the wedge in terms of many other field sports. His actions in the past confirm that he will not fool anybody when he states that this is not the thin end of the wedge and that he has another agenda that will continue into the future as long as he is Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
It is interesting that at the end of a very busy Dáil session, where €22 billion have been effectively thrown down the Suwannee by the Government in respect of baling out Anglo Irish Bank, we are discussing the priorities of the Green Party, which are the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill and the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill, and a directly elected mayor of Dublin, which the Minister promised for the end of the year but which we now know, although the Minister has yet to admit it, will not happen this year, despite him seeking to give the perception that it will happen.
The commitment to ban stag hunting in the revised programme for Government was not part of the original programme for Government in 2007. The Fianna Fáil Party, which was the major partner in Government, did not get a mandate from the people of this country to introduce this legislation. Six Members out of a total of 166 have decided that 154 years of countryside tradition in terms of the Ward Union Hunt should be put aside.
The worthless document that was a classic example of shameless spin to get over certain problems in the economy produced in the revised programme for Government in 2009 is now seen for what it is, namely, that the majority of the membership of the Green Party at those conferences were more interested in animal welfare issues being included in the revised programme for Government such as dog breeding and the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill, than they were in the serious issues of the National Asset Management Agency, the banking crisis and the fiscal and budgetary parameters for 2010. In a cynical manoeuvre the Minister got his party members on side for the purpose of other serious issues because he was able to get some commitments from Fianna Fáil in writing about matters relating to animal welfare. The soothing noises of the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, at the time, one of the key Fianna Fáil negotiators, that all would be fine on the day and that this will not happen in a hurry - he even suggested to some backbenchers that it might not happen at all - have been proven to be nought because of the Minister's zealousness and eagerness to ensure he and his members were able to get this legislation before the House today. The soothing noises of the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, to the Fianna Fáil backbenchers is now seen for what it is - it is not worth the paper on which it was written.
The commitment to ban stag hunting should be viewed in that light. It is an ideological political commitment that is important to a very small group of people but not important to the overall population because they are concerned with issues relating to the banking inquiry and the bankers' report. The are interested in issues relating to jobs and public expenditure matters for 2011. They are interested in the cover-up and the investigations in the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. They are interested in slashing allowances for the blind, people with disabilities and children. They are interested in the removal of medical cards from the elderly. They are interested in the Green Party voting in the Dáil to support the then Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea, Deputy Ahern and Deputy Harney, when we know their hearts were not in it, to ensure their continued survival. They are interested in voting down all attempts for democratic consideration of three constituency by-elections, and they are overseeing a system of local government which is being strangled on a daily basis by the Minister in meeting the requirements and the remit in terms of various issues such as wasterwater and matters relating to waste.
Ultimately, the response of this country will be the taxpayer picking up the tab to meet European Union fines. Those are the issues that are of interest to the people, not interesting discussions of an ideological and zealous nature concerning the Ward Union Hunt. That is the record of the Green Party, and the people are beginning to see through that now.
My good friend, Deputy Sargent, and I had a little chat about this matter on national radio this morning and he introduced a new dimension, which is that it is a road safety issue.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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A deer crossing the road with a few dogs after it would be a huge issue in terms of safety but he could not give any examples of cases where there had been fatalities or injuries. The fear factor introduced by Deputy Sargent in this matter is interesting.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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The Deputy knows well. What about 2009?
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It was a scare tactic. In a liberal society people who get into a car take a risk. The Deputy is saying that for some reason people who hunt animals for commercial purposes across roadways are taking their lives in their hands and that people coming around the bend on the road will run into those animals. He failed to tell the people that this activity is happening under strict licensing conditions and monitoring, and that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government are supervising it on behalf of the State to make sure it is appropriate. They cannot do that when cows are crossing the road.
We see that all the tenuous arguments trotted out to sustain an ideological argument are nothing more than ideology. It has nothing to do with the practical implementation of these matters but more to do with the zealousness by which the Minister wants to pursue a narrow political and ideological agenda.
The Ward Union stag hunt is the only licensed one in the Republic of Ireland. Hunting deer has a long history dating from the 19th century. The hunting area comprises north County Dublin together with south and east Meath. Hunting takes place infrequently two days a week during the season from November to March each year. The Ward Union Hunt maintains its own herd of 150 Irish red deer. If the legislation is approved, what does the Minister intend to do with this herd?
The union hunts stags are not generally killed but are recaptured and returned to the herd. The Ward Union hunt has been required to apply for a licence annually since 1977 from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Each stag in the herd is hunted once a year and is supervised by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government wildlife officers and veterinarians. The health of the stag is checked before and after the hunt and stress levels are recorded.
This is a system that takes account of animal welfare in a serious way and with which no one has had a problem until the Minister decided to think otherwise. The Ward Union Hunt has 200 members and contributes €1.4 million annually to the economy. Research carried out by NUI Galway indicates the enormous contribution made by field sports and rural pursuits to the economy.
There is an anti-rural bias to the Minister's agenda. He has displayed this at protest marches over the years and there are plenty of photographs to show it.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Are there really? The Opposition is like the Stasi.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Allow Deputy Hogan to continue without interruption.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Minister likes to get publicity and is interested in getting his name and photograph in the newspapers. There is plenty of evidence to show his narrow political pursuit on these matters.
Fine Gael believes the hunt plays an important cultural and economic role in rural Ireland, something I would not expect the Green Party to appreciate or understand. With the Green Party in Government there is no guarantee that this ban does not represent the thin edge of the wedge with more country pursuits to be banned in the following months and years. In Opposition and as part of its election manifesto in the last general election, the Green Party was committed to stopping live animal exports, a matter with which Deputy Sargent would be very familiar.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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That was not our policy.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Fine Gael will stand up for our country as well as our urban heritage, the rural economy and rural life. The Minister must remember that one size does not fit all. The Minister is not always right and his "I-know-best" attitude will not always work everywhere. If he wants to pursue a narrow political agenda with the acquiescence of his Government partners it is his business. He should not, however denigrate anyone else on this or the other side of the House who has a different view to him.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will not be lectured to by a Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government who has no understanding of the pressures and traditions of those living in rural Ireland. They are sick and tired of being targeted by this Green Minister who turns his nose up at their way of life at every opportunity.
I am surprised Fianna Fáil Members have agreed to this legislation. Not one Member of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party spoke out against the approval of the revised programme for Government which included a commitment to ban stag hunting and the Ward Union Hunt. Why should any Fianna Fáil Member be surprised this Bill is debated here this evening when they could have opposed it as far back as November 2009?
We will see evidence of the representations those individual Deputies received and the commitments they have given when it comes to voting on this legislation. There is no point in having soothing noises afterwards. This is the opportunity for Members to tell the Minister enough is enough, that we do not want this legislation that will ban a countryside tradition and organisation that has been in place since 1824 and has been monitored and licensed by this State to ensure it carries out its responsibilities. I hope the narrow ideological agenda this legislation is pursuing will be seen for what it is and the House will reject this Bill on Second Stage.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I wish to share time with Deputy Stagg.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Labour Party opposes this legislation because it is the wrong approach to maximising the protection of wildlife. It does nothing to protect wildlife but has a much more cynical motivation. It is an all-out unilateral ban on the Ward Union Hunt and will have much further consequences for deer-stalking, for example, which the Minister alluded to in his speech.
The Minister's all-or-nothing approach to this legislation has divided communities. The Minister has done what no one else has managed by creating a divide between rural and urban communities. People in rural communities feel under threat from this legislation and are concerned it is the thin end of the wedge.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Will the Deputy clarify that?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The divide has occurred because of the Minister's actions. If he had taken a different approach, there may have been different consequences.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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This is dreadful stuff.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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This legislation is about the Green Party's own political survival. It is a last-ditch attempt to achieve something in a Government in which the Greens have achieved little. To achieve this trophy prize, the Minister will divide communities and his proposals will have an effect on areas he will claim was never his intention. People will lose their livelihoods because of this legislation. The Minister took no account of this possibility when drafting the legislation.
This Bill has nothing to do with the Green Party's principles because it was never in the original programme for Government. It was only when a gun was effectively put to Fianna Fáil's head was that this legislation was included in the revised programme for Government. It is simply an attempt to save a Green Party seat or two at the next election.
The Minister consulted none of the stakeholders when drawing up the legislation. It has economic consequences for communities and has done nothing to bring them on board.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Is Deputy Tuffy opposed to bloodsports? Could the Deputy please just be straight in giving her answer?
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister please allow the Deputy to continue without interruption?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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This legislation does nothing to stop the killing of animals. The Minister is happy to allow other animals to be killed in other ways. This is just trophy legislation.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Hunting is about pitting animal against animal.
3:00 pm
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Minister not only does not consult people about legislation, he then refuses to listen to the debate about it in the Chamber. That is not the way to go about legislating on a matter as divisive and controversial as this. The Minister is doing this at a time when we need rural and urban communities to work together to bring the economy back on track.
At a meeting with senior departmental officials and Wild Deer Ireland, a commitment was given that a consultation process would begin to address the concerns over the impact of the legislation on legitimate deer-hunters and deer-stalkers. To date, no consultation has taken place.
Wild Deer Ireland raised this issue at the recent meeting of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It also mentioned that Coillte was very concerned about the legislation. I refer to the record of that meeting. Speaking for the group, Mr. Hannigan stated that it was fair to say Coillte has expressed deep concern about the implications of creating this new offence and it would write to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, to express its concern. Mr. Hannigan went on to state that his organisation met senior officials from the National Parks and Wildlife Service. It is a fair representation of that meeting to suggest it is also concerned about the implications.
It is the view of the National Parks and Wildlife Service that section 3(2) should be referred to the Minister, the Attorney General and the Parliamentary Counsel. These groups have sought consultation with the Minister to ensure the legislation is thought through and such that the protection of wildlife is maximised. The Minister has decided not to do this. He simply seeks a unilateral ban to get his trophy legislation through before the summer. That appears more important than anything else. It is more important to him than animal welfare.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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This is animal welfare legislation.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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A different approach could be taken to the protection of wildlife and the Labour Party has a very strong record in this regard. When Deputies Michael D. Higgins and Brian O'Shea were Ministers or Ministers of State in the last Government involving the Labour Party, they made progress in respect of the Ward Union Hunt and other matters related to animal welfare. For example, Deputy Brian O'Shea was the Minster of State who introduced the muzzling of greyhounds during coursing. Progress was achieved but not in the divisive way the Minister is making progress now.
When the issue was raised in the Dáil by Deputy Sargent in 1997, the then Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, referred to the Ward Union Hunt in reply to questions put. He provided an update about how he had issued a licence which was limited to the following March. The licence was subject to the condition that he could appoint persons to undertake monitoring of the Ward Union Hunt club. An official from the NPWS monitored the hunt on 15 January of that year and had arranged for an official from the Department for Agriculture, Food and Forestry to undertake ongoing monitoring of the hunt until the ending of the licence. Factual reports on the hunt were to be provided, dealing with the health and condition of the animal before and after the hunt, the treatment of the animal during the hunt, the conduct of the hunt and the impact of the hunt on the lands over which it passed. Such monitoring led to considerable improvements which the current Minister has used when issuing licences for the hunt.
When the Minister issued the most recent licence for the hunt, with 28 conditions, he was building on the work done by Deputy Michael D. Higgins. When Deputy Higgins discussed the matter in the House he indicated his wish to ensure the process of review put in place for the licensing of stag hunting would take into account all issues and viewpoints, including those adverted to by Deputies. He listened to all sides of the House and talked to all shades of opinion on the issue in the wider community and in society. That is a better way to approach this issue. As a result, he brought in far-reaching improvements to the licensing of the hunt. He introduced 34 conditions, including measures to ensure the welfare of the animals would be protected through inspection by vets and to ensure the stag would be released in plenty of time to be well ahead of the dogs and so on. The current Minister has used those conditions in the licensing of hunt. The Labour Party approach achieved much progress. The Ward Union Hunt bought into the process and has made major changes and improvement in the years since 1997. This has all been based on monitoring, research and consultation with the stakeholders.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Labour Party leader stated he was opposed to stag hunting. His views are on the record.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should allow the Deputy to speak.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There was no great uproar at that time and the Minister has implemented the conditions set down then. It was all fine until the Minister needed a new programme for Government. It was the first time in the history of the State there had to be a renewed programme for Government to keep a party in Government. The contents of the programme were all about show and nothing to do with substance. This is one such measure.
Such an ill-thought out and unconsidered approach, with a lack of consultation with stakeholders from different sectors of the community and different sides, has led to unintended consequences with which the Minister must now deal. These relate to the introduction of deer stalking provisions. There would be no need to introduce these amendments if the deer stalking provisions had not been introduced. There would be no need for them save the Bill had unintended consequences. This is a direct result of the failure of the Minster to consult and bring on board the stakeholders and to ensure the legislation is thought through and based on evidence, monitoring and consultation.
There is a good deal of evidence that the approach heretofore has brought about great improvements. Departmental reports have assessed the welfare of the animals. As it stands, the system seems to work well and the Minister could do much to build on this. He could examine whether further conditions are needed. He could legislate to include the conditions in the licences in law. The Minister could examine many ways to protect the animals in this hunt but he is not prepared to do so because he wants to put through his trophy legislation.
One concern raised by Wild Deer Ireland is the culling of females during May and June. Fawns are born during these months and up until August. The organisation maintains that legislation should restrict the culling of female deer during that season when fawns need their mothers to survive. The Minister has done nothing about this issue because he does not care about it. Such a measure could have emerged from consultation with the stakeholders. It is an improvement the Minister could have introduced for the welfare of animals but he did not want to do so. He simply sought an all-out, unilateral ban which is divisive of communities and which will have far-reaching, unintended consequences. The Minister will do anything to get his trophy legislation. It is the same as the case of the light bulbs, in which he ended up rowing back because he did not consult properly with the European Union. He ended up having to legislate in a more considered and thoughtful way because the European Union made him. I fully stand over the point that this is trophy legislation.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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How many times does the Deputy intend to repeat that phrase?
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should allow the Deputy to conclude.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It is a very important point. The Green Party should be about substance. They should be seen to maximise the protection of animal welfare.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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What is trophy legislation?
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should stop interrupting.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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He should leave that to Deputy Gogarty.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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How can we do this in a way that brings on the various sectors of society? How can we actually improve animal welfare? There are significant inconsistencies.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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I will tell the Deputy.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Minister is allowing-----
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Deputy should listen to the animal welfare people.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should allow the Deputy to continue.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There are many different points of view among animal welfare and environmental groups and there are many different views in society on this issue. Many people are in the middle ground and are prepared to do this but will bring on board the different points of view.
The Minister has introduced inconsistencies in this legislation. Hares are captured for coursing and can be killed. Other animals can be killed but in this hunt the animals cannot be killed and their welfare is monitored.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Does the Deputy want to get rid of hare coursing?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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What is the Minister doing about it? My guess is he is doing nothing because he does not care about hare coursing. It is not important to him. This Bill is more important to the Minister because it is a symbol. It has nothing to do with substance and it is all about style. Let us consider everything the Minister has not done. The Government should have more urgent priorities such as job creation.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Let us get on with it. We will guillotine this legislation.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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When Deputy Sargent was leader of the Green Party, he referred to his new deal for children and everything he would do in that regard.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Let us get on with it.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Did the Minister say, "Get on with it"? This Government has done nothing about implementing the called for child welfare legislation which has been called for in recent years.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should stick to this Bill.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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No. This is relevant. More urgent legislation is needed to address issues such as the plight of urban horses which are dying in Dublin communities. Nothing is being done for them. Nothing is being done for the animals which are dying near me in Clondalkin. They have been left to rot and die in fields. These are more urgent animal welfare issues. I would prefer to see the Minister making progress on those issues.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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If we did, the Labour Party would vote against them as well.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Minister does not need a Bill such as this to do something about them. There are basic, practical steps the Minister can take to address the issue of the welfare of urban animals, including providing more resources to local authorities but it is certain the Minister will not do that.
There are serious issues in regard to child welfare which have not been addressed by this Government, despite the all-party consensus on the need for legislation to deal with the anomalies in child welfare, statutory rape and the predatory activities of some people in regard to young people. That legislation has not been progressed. The reports adopted by this House have been left on the shelf by the Government. It has done nothing to stop incineration.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The previous Government signed an order which gave the go-ahead for the M3 and the Minister took over once the dirty work was done.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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What about the Labour Party's U-turn on stag hunting?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We have a position on stag hunting. We improved the welfare of stags when in Government. That is something which can be built on in a thoughtful way.
The main issue is that the Minister has not consulted the stakeholders. There are implications for people who work in this activity. Reports by MacMillan and Phillip have stated that 30 people could lose their jobs as a result of this ban and €1 million could be withdrawn from the local economy and that is not to mention the ancillary expenditure by participants in the hunt and the service to farmers where dead animals are picked up by people involved in the Ward Union Hunt so they will not rot in the fields and there will not be environmental hazards. Will that ancillary activity of the Ward Union Hunt survive if this unilateral ban is put in place without any consultation with the stakeholders and any consideration of the consequences? Whatever the Minister does, he should ensure there are not unintended consequences that will damage animal welfare, divide communities or result in people losing their jobs.
Many jockeys have said it will undermine their capacity to develop riding skills.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Ward Union Hunt was established in 1854. It has been in existence for more than 100 years but the Minister is unilaterally getting rid of it. Prior to the renewed programme for Government, his approach was the same as the Labour Party's, that is, to try to make improvements through licensing conditions. At the very least, the Minister should have had stakeholder consultation and involvement in this process but he was not prepared to do that. If he had that process, he could have looked at the implications.
Other Governments have done things on a cross-party basis. They have studied the issue, looked at the economic impact and sent veterinarians to inspect the animals. They have tried to take a thoughtful approach but the Minister was not prepared to do that.
It basically goes back to the fact that the Green Party has very little to offer in Government. It has implemented few of the promises it made before the general election-----
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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We have a huge agenda.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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----and few of the promises it made in the original programme for Government. It needed a renewed programme for Government because it could not implement the original one. It had to come up with something a bit like the light bulbs. It decided to have a trophy to show it was making progress when it was really making no progress at all. That is cynical on the Minister's part and it is not the way to approach things. He could bring on board all sides on this, as others have done.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Labour Party would have voted against everything.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Minister should have taken a more considered, thoughtful and conciliatory approach which did not divide communities and was not about achieving something for the Green Party and not for the rest of society.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I respect the views of others on this issue. There are strongly held views on both sides of this argument. The Labour Party has a strong record of opposing animal cruelty. Indeed, we had a campaign on that issue in the 1992-93 period. It is from that period that the oft quoted remark from me on stag hunting was made. That was a correct position at that time.
Arising from that position, we achieved major improvements in all the legal sports where one animal was set against another with the object and purpose of a kill. The kill was eliminated from all of these sports arising from the regulations introduced by two Labour Party Ministers, Deputies Higgins and O'Shea.
Deputy O'Shea introduced the use of muzzles which prevented hounds in pursuit of hares from killing hares. That was a major improvement. Hounds on racecourses in Harold's Cross, Newbridge and elsewhere are muzzled in case they attack each other. Deputy Higgins introduced regulations concerning the Ward Union Hunt which prevented the hounds from making any contact with the deer. The regulations are monitored by Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food inspectors. The animal is examined by veterinarians before and after the hunt and, by all accounts, is well catered for in between hunts.
The regulations introduced by Deputy Higgins allowed a period of time - I believe it is a half an hour - between the release of the deer and the release of the hounds. They also require that the hounds must be called off if they come within a certain distance of the deer. That ensured that the two legal sports in Ireland, the purpose of which was set animals against each other with the purpose of a kill, were no longer a legal activity. That is now the case as a direct result of the Labour Party's action in government with Fianna Fáil. There was agreement across the House on the measures brought in. There is now no legal activity in which one animal is set against another with the object of killing one another, which is a major achievement.
It is now limited to race and chase with no possibility of a kill. That was the object of the exercise of the Labour Party and the basis of the statement by the Minister and others, who now want to opt for the draconian all-out, end of story measures proposed in this Bill.
Our spokesperson, Deputy Tuffy, has outlined the Labour Party's position and the reasons it will vote against this Bill which, as she said, is essentially a piece of trophy legislation promised by Fianna Fáil to the Green Party in order to provide it with some cover for having got so little from this Government. Many in Fianna Fáil are opposed to the measure but their mettle will be tested next week when we vote on this Bill.
There are many other urgent animal welfare issues the Minister is ignoring, such as the growing problem of abandoned horses in urban areas, to which my colleague referred. Some 350 horses were abandoned in Dublin alone last year but no action was taken by the Minister in that regard.
If this was only about the Ward Union Hunt, there would perhaps be only local interest. There certainly would not be the level of interest that surrounds the debate. The reason for the level of interest in and strong opposition to this measure is that the cat was let out of the bag on Pat Kenny's television programme and on Kildare FM by those campaigning for this measure. On both occasions, members and spokespersons for the Irish Council Against Blood Sports made it clear that this measure to ban the Ward Union Hunt was only the thin end of the wedge and that they had a much wider agenda which they would pursue. All levels of hunting of foxes, hare and deer would be banned if they got their way, regardless of the built-in safety regulations.
On my local radio station, Kildare FM, a senior spokesperson stated that fishing other than for food was cruel and should be banned and that there should be no more catch and release and no more course fishing. Shooting had no chance of being tolerated and horse-racing was also in their sights.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is not crazy; it is on the record. The Minister can name the person; I do not want to name-----
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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It is not in the legislation.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Minister should not try to do a Gogarty on me.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should allow the Deputy to continue.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Minister should hold his whisht and take his medicine.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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He should not do a Gogarty on me.
This extended list of rural sports enjoyed by urban and rural people is threatened. That is the reason so many people have come out against this measure. I will not support that agenda. The most serious act against wildlife in this country was the release into the wild of thousands of farmed mink. Those supporting this Bill and the wider agenda to which I have referred boasted that they were responsible for this dastardly act. Mink have spread to all parts of the island. They have decimated wildlife, wiping out rabbits and water fowl in many areas, and they have attacked domestic animals and fowl. The people who committed this dastardly act and those associated with them did more damage to wildlife than 100 Ward Unions would have done.
During a recent debate in the House, Deputy Thomas Byrne attacked and denigrated Senator Dominic Hannigan because the Labour Party had not at that time made a decision on its position on this measure. The parliamentary party discusses issues and arrives at a decision, which we then implement. The decision was made recently following the publication of this Bill and the public debate on it. The Labour Party has examined the Bill and reached a decision to vote against it. Senator Hannigan will vote accordingly in the Seanad. I hope Deputy Byrne will also vote against this measure in accordance with his publicly expressed position.
I was born and reared on a small farm in County Mayo. We snared rabbits for food and for sale. It was not a kind way of catching them but it was the only way available to us. We destroyed vermin and we collected the State bounties for doing so, which gave us pocket money. We respected our environment and we protected it as best we could. After all, we lived off the land and what it produced and we had an interest in doing so. I will not accept any criticism of my commitment to animal welfare or the record of the Labour Party in this regard.
Bloodsports do not exist legally in Ireland unless one wants to count shooting and fishing, which are on the Minister's agenda.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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Do not talk rubbish.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Minister's supporters have said that repeatedly.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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The Deputy is talking rubbish.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should allow the Deputy to continue without interruption.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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There is no legal possibility of animals being set against one another in this country-----
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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They are set against each other. Shame on the Deputy and the Labour Party for doing a complete U-turn on this.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg must be allowed to continue.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should be asked to leave the House.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Every time I get up to contribute, either Deputy Gogarty or another member of the Green Party thinks I am fair game. I am not and I will bite back as well.
There are no legal bloodsports in Ireland but there are plenty of illegal bloodsports and the Minister is not doing much about them.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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That is not true.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It is not now possible legally to set one animal against another with the purpose of one or other being killed. The regulations ban it. There are no legal bloodsports in Ireland unless the Green Party and its supporters want to count shooting and fishing. I accept there are strong views on both sides of this debate and I respect that. I will vote against the Bill.
Mary Wallace (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share time with Deputy Mattie McGrath.
I ask everyone to reflect on what we are trying to achieve with this legislation. This is not a simplistic issue and its deep implications need to be highlighted and debated. The Bill was published on 20 April. It has been suggested that stag hunting should cease for animal welfare and public safety reasons and I want to challenge this rationale. I also want to challenge both the alleged concerns about animal welfare and the exaggerated claims pertaining to public safety.
The Bill will give legislative effect to the commitment in the renewed programme for Government with the Green Party to ban the practice of stag hunting. While the Minister advises that this will not have implications for other country pursuits, the resulting effect of the Bill will be devastating to my home county of Meath and the only remaining stag hunt in the country, the Ward Union Hunt, WUH. While there are strong opinions on both sides, I have deep reservations about this legislation.
The legislation will significantly impact on the livelihoods of people in my community. Thousands of people have signed a petition opposing the proposal to ban stag hunting. This petition represents the voices of rural Ireland. These are the voices of people who understand the devastating effect that the Bill will have and who have a real connection with animal welfare. They are not involved because of a political ideology but because they deal with animals on a day-to-day basis. These are the voices of people who know and understand the realities of our natural world.
The Bill jeopardises long held traditions, the rural economy of Meath and the future of the horse racing industry. I live on the Fairyhouse Road, Ratoath, next to the Tattersalls Ireland complex and down the road from the WUH kennels. The Tattersalls complex is Ireland's largest bloodstock sales arena and major auctions take place throughout the year with people travelling from all over the world. This is the home of the WUH. Ratoath is steeped in the history of the horse racing industry and hunting. These two sports go hand in hand with each other. The connection between racing and hunting is a key contributor to Ireland's reputation as world leader in horse breeding. For the past 162 years, the two sports have benefited from each other in County Meath, as have Fairyhouse racecourse, Tattersalls and the WUH in their interaction with each other.
The hunt was established in 1854. It maintains a 150-strong herd of native Irish red deer in its reservation at Greenpark, Dunshaughlin, County Meath. The hunt has more than 200 members, employs four full-time staff and contributes €1.4 million to the local economy. It costs approximately €6,700 per annum to keep a horse. That money is spent in my local area, benefiting vets, farriers, feed merchants and saddlers. The WUH founded Fairyhouse racecourse and the first point to point meeting was held there in 1848. The link between the hunt and the racecourse is still present. WUH officials lead in the Irish Grand National winner. For decades, Fairyhouse was effectively managed in a large measure by many hunt members. The past two chairmen of the hunt were on the board of Fairyhouse racecourse.
The WUH has for a long time been a nurturing ground for many of Ireland's top jockeys. These jockeys live in my parish. Current active members of the WUH include Grand National winning jockeys Paul Carberry, Robert Power, Barry Geraghty, Ross Geraghty, Grand National winning trainer Gordon Elliott and champion lady rider Nina Carberry. Distinguished flat jockey, Kevin Manning, also grew up hunting with the WUH. They all developed their riding skills on hunts with the WUH. Ruby Walsh has also been involved. Paul Carberry, Barry Geraghty and Nina Carberry are all outstanding sports people who have said that the ban on stag hunting would undermine their capacity to practice and develop their riding skills. As the history of the WUH has demonstrated, today's young riders are the great jockeys of horse racing tomorrow. The WUH has played and continues to play a significant role in the success of the horse racing industry.
The chief executive officer of Horse racing Ireland, Brian Kavanagh, recently said:
"In no other sport can Ireland claim such an elite Ievel of achievement. Horse racing and breeding is one of the few industries in which Ireland is rightly recognised as a world leader, due to its indigenous skills base and the tradition of enlightened government policy. This has generated positive benefits for Ireland in economic terms."
Irish trained horses occupy three of the top four places in the world thoroughbred rankings, including world champion Sea the Stars.
The Dukes report published in late 2009 was commissioned by the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association and it highlighted how the racing industry has become a significant employer with 15,500 jobs, excluding the betting industry, and it is a vital part of the struggling rural economy. However, this position in severe danger. The industry suffered an estimated 1,500 job losses in 2009. The report made clear that the industry provides vital employment in rural Ireland but that this is under threat. The ban on stag hunting will not only be detrimental to the local jobs and the local economy in Meath, but it also poses a threat to the wider economy. Why are the thousands of voices that oppose this ban being ignored? I cannot understand why that is. It is wrong to trample on people's rural traditions.
We must consider some key facts to get a picture of the significant contribution played by the horse racing industry to the economy . The gross value of the industry to the economy is in excess of €1.1 billion per annum. In 2009, a total of 6,222 Irish thoroughbreds to the value of €216 million were exported to 42 countries. Many of these were sold in the Tattersalls complex on the road on which I live. The industry generates significant benefits for the tourism industry, with approximately 80,000 visiting Ireland for race meetings, sales and stud operations. Many of them stay in homes, bead and breakfasts and guest houses in my community. The value of racing festivals and other meetings to local economies is estimated to be €260 million. This has a major impact on rural communities.
Ireland has more race tracks per head of population than any other country in the world. There are 27 race tracks in Ireland, with an average of 340 race meetings per annum. Apart from the fact that interest in racing is high, Ireland is one of the few countries which has national hunt racing all year round. This explains the high number of tracks. According to Horse Racing Ireland, in 2009 there was a severe decline in bloodstock sales at public auctions, such as the auction on my road, with sales falling by 32% to €67.5 million. The number of stallions, mares and foals fell significantly, reflecting an Irish horse-breeding industry that is now under threat. Government support for the horse and greyhound racing industries is provided under the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund. These industries directly account for approximately 27,500 jobs. A recent review of the fund found that horse racing in Ireland was "a key driver of substantial economic activity, especially in rural areas."
As recent reports have outlined, the Irish breeding industry is already under threat, and the Bill before us today poses another significant threat to the horse racing industry and the rural economy in which I live. The ban on stag hunting will result in further job losses in rural Ireland, but most of all, it will have a disproportionate effect on a single group of extremely important hunters, the Ward Union Hunt.
In times of such economic difficulty it does not make sense to jeopardise jobs, the rural economy, the horse racing industry and the wider economy.
Mary Wallace (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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As I have outlined today, County Meath plays a significant role in hunting and horse racing in Ireland. This ban will have repercussions for more than the Ward Union Hunt and its 200 members.
The proponents of this Bill have cited animal welfare and public safety as being the driving force behind the bill. I simply do not agree that this Bill is needed for animal welfare and public safety reasons. I have been to visit the kennels, as has the Acting Chairman, Deputy Johnny Brady. I might elaborate on that if I have time.
Stag hunting involves the separation of a deer from the herd and its transportation to a location from where it is released and hunted. It was devised 200 years ago to allow hunts to take place when wild deer became too scarce. Red deer are bred and maintained for this purpose by the Ward Union Hunt. Let us be clear on what actually happens. On a hunting day a stag is released, recaptured and returned safe and sound to the Ward Union Hunt farm. Each stag in the herd is hunted just once a year, with constant supervision by wildlife officers and veterinarians from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. This is a fact. The health of the stag is checked before and after a hunt and continual monitoring has shown no excess stress levels.
The use of road whips and road marshals has been established in the time since this Government came to power. They were introduced when issues arose with the 1997 licence. I remember working with the Ward Union Hunt at that time, and there was much interaction between the hunt and the Department of the Environment and Local Government. The hunt introduced a team of road marshals to minimise disruption and sought meeting locations with off-road parking. Persons were appointed to proceed along the roads and control the hounds, employing two-way radios for communication. In addition, the number of people allowed to hunt on one day was reduced in order to reduce the impact of the hunt. All of this required the implementation of a balloting system for members.
The hunt introduced many conditions from 1997 onwards to try to alleviate concerns to do with the licence application. The road whips and road marshals play an important role in the Ward Union Hunt as they work to ensure the safety of the public and the well being of the stag, hounds and horses. They are in constant contact with the huntsman to ensure they know exactly where the stag is and the direction in which he is heading.
The Ward Union Hunt has an exemplary record in managing its herd of pure-bred Irish red deer, making it a unique ecological asset. If the ban proceeds, that entire heritage will be lost. I ask those who are genuinely interested in our natural heritage to consider this. The hunt has already introduced a number of regulations to ensure the highest animal welfare standards and has implemented a wide range of health and safety measures. Banning the hunt in order to address concerns over public safety and animal welfare is an excessive and unfair response, especially if other measures can be found to address these concerns. I repeat that the Ward Union Hunt is willing to engage with a view to exploring further possible health and safety measures. In that context, is a ban a proportionate response?
Over recent years, each hunt conducted by the Ward Union Hunt has been closely monitored by Government inspectors, and their reports have consistently not identified animal welfare issues. In addition, veterinarians from the then Department of Agriculture and Food conducted a major study of every deer hunted during the 1997-98 season and reported that the health of the deer did not appear to be affected in either the short or the long term after hunting. These are the facts. Hunting is not cruel to the deer and it is closely monitored by Government inspectors to ensure that this is so.
I question the use of animal welfare and public safety as a motivation for this legislation and have legitimate suspicions that the real agenda is a basic dislike of all forms of hunting and rural activities, which is informed by ideology rather than reality. The reality is so different, and I would love to see people experiencing the real hunt.
Let us further consider the alleged animal welfare concerns. An example of the Ward Union Hunt's commitment to the highest standards of animal welfare is its valuable service of a subsidised collection facility for the fallen stock of local farmers. The Ward Union Hunt has two specially equipped vehicles licensed by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for collections from farmers on a daily basis. Veterinary inspectors from the Department call to the Ward Union Hunt facility at the end of every day to examine and take samples from animals. Laboratory testing is then carried out on these samples to ensure prevention and early detection of bovine diseases such as BSE, and the facilities are audited annually. It processes around 4,500 cattle per annum, along with a large number of sheep. The Ward Union Hunt would not be able to provide this essential service unless it operated to the highest hygiene and environmental standards. The collection service is vital to the business of farmers in the area and also provides an important database to the Department on the movement of cattle. In view of this, who is it that really cares about animal welfare? There are positive actions being taken to support animal welfare around the Ward Union Hunt farm and kennels.
I emphasise that Ward Union Hunt hunts have been regularly monitored by Government inspectors and that animal welfare issues have not being identified. Proponents of the Bill are using emotive and incorrect sound bites to conceal their ideological objection to hunting and rural pastimes. It is also clear that there has been insufficient engagement with key stakeholders - the people who really do care about animal welfare.
This Bill and its impact on the rural community that I represent should not be exploited by anybody on any side of the House for cheap political gain. For me and for those I represent, it is too important. The Minister must be able to see that this Bill does not have the support of rural Ireland. The sheer number of people around the country involved in the Rural Ireland Says Enough campaign is evidence of this fact. A number of local authorities around the country have declared their support for the RISE campaign, including Meath County Council.
The Wildlife (Amendment) Bill will affect jobs. It will affect the local economy in Meath.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Why does the Minister not heckle that speaker?
Mary Wallace (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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It will affect the riding skills of some of our greatest sportspeople. It will end the historic relationship between the Ward Union Hunt and Fairyhouse racecourse, and it will have a detrimental effect on the horse racing industry and the wider economy.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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That is Deputy Stagg's job.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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That is because she will vote with us next week.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Deputy to continue. A bit of respect for a lady.
Mary Wallace (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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It is astonishing, in a time of major economic challenges, that we should deliberately and knowingly implement legislation that will have a direct negative impact on jobs and our local economy. The legislation is supposed to be motivated by public safety and animal welfare concerns but is actually motivated by an ideology that is removed from reality. By its very existence it casts a smear on decent people who pursue traditions and pastimes that are fundamental to who we are - people who have a proven track record in both animal welfare and public safety and who have not been consulted in this process.
The Bill is unnecessary and has a disproportionate effect on the economy of County Meath and the Ward Union Hunt. The Ward Union Hunt has maintained the highest animal welfare standards through its 200-year history. It has also made an outstanding contribution to the Irish horse racing industry and should be allowed to continue to do so. We must consider the implications for the people I represent in my home community. What would have been so wrong with granting another licence for next season from October to March? We could have come back here in September and had a much more detailed debate.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's time has elapsed. I am sorry I did not notify her before now. She may finish quickly.
Mary Wallace (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine.
Before we progress any further with this Bill, I would like to invite the Minister, and anyone else who is interested, to come to Meath, as other Deputies have done, and join me on a Ward Union hunt day. People need to see for themselves what this is about. I mean this invitation with all my heart. People can see for themselves how important it is to the people involved. I have no doubt the Minister would be greatly impressed by how humanely the animals are treated and how much care, attention and effort is put into looking after those animals.
What was really fascinating that day and it is something the people do not seem to realise, is that the deer and the hounds live together in the same yard. When the deer was put into the trailer in our presence, one would imagine he would have been fretting or worried or concerned because of the heavy barking of the hounds who were being gathered up in the yard beside him but he passed no remarks on them. Why did he pass no remarks? It is because he lives with them and beside them every day. This idea of the deer being all in a sweat in the trailer is simply not the reality.
The Minister would be pleasantly surprised as indeed were we. I am a lifelong supporter of the Ward Union Hunt but I had not been to its kennels until this year in company with the Deputies from the area. We visited the kennels before we discussed this Bill and decided to speak on it. We were pleasantly surprised and I know the Minister would be pleasantly surprised with what he would see in the Ward Union Hunt kennels. The hunt is a traditional rural pursuit and it is not as one might perceive it. It is a significant employer and is a contributor to the culture of rural Ireland and it has a very important place in my community.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)
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As a member of the Government party I should have my hands around my two Green Party colleagues here but, unfortunately, this is not the case. I am not happy either. The Minister knows this and so does his colleague, the former Minister of State, Deputy Sargent. I have had many debates with my colleague in government and I hope to have some more during the passage of upcoming Bills but in my view, any legislation passed by this House should be assessed by means of an impact assessment study to assess the detrimental or otherwise effects on any person or community. This has not happened in the case of this Bill. There has not been proper consultation. Will there be a Bill to protect the ordinary, decent people referred to by the previous speaker and other speakers? They are having sleepless nights and are being terrorised. I have said this to Deputy Sargent on another occasion. People are being victimised and pilloried and held up as being wild men or wild animals themselves, which is shameful. It is time for some common-sense.
The Minister is a reasonable man as are most of his colleagues in the House and I have said to him in the past that this policy and legislation are being driven by unreasonable people. I will not say anything stronger today although I could. These people are not being fair to the decent, plain people of Ireland. It has been noted that this stag hunt has been in existence since 1854 and reference has been made to its benefits. People who take part in rural pursuits and who get their children involved will care for animals more than any animal rights person or self-proclaimed animal rights people because they are close to nature. They understand nature and they are familiar with farming practices and respect them and the farming communities. I acknowledge there was an horrific incident involving a deer in a school yard which is not desirable.
I refer to the explanatory memorandum of the Bill which states:
Section 3 provides for a new provision making it an offence to hunt deer using two or more dogs. This provision includes the hunting of deer by any holder of an appropriate hunting licence or permission granted under the Wildlife Acts. For the purposes of this section deer includes deer that are not wild animals. It shall not make it an offence where the person has been granted permission under section 42 of the Wildlife Acts to use dogs to drive deer off land where they are causing serious damage to tree plantations or crops.
That is lunacy. I was reared on a farm and so was the Acting Chairman, Deputy Johnny Brady. I ask my learned colleagues to come and visit the farms. I know Deputy Sargent has visited farms. Nobody can drive any animal, whether wild or tame, off land as this section suggests. I had big problems in my area with wild deer and I have been in touch with the Minister's Department on a regular basis to see what can be done to help farmers. Deer are already running by themselves so it is very dangerous to run them. They run and knock fences, even electric fences and they run onto roadways. Deer can do great damage to vehicles. This Bill provides for the use of dogs to drive deer off land. The people who drafted this Bill do not understand the situation and that is the basis of our problem. This is why I am so exercised about it. I am disappointed it forms part of the programme for Government. I am shocked to think that one of our negotiators is a constituency colleague of Deputy Wallace and Deputy Brady. He should know about stag hunting. I know nothing about stag hunting because I do not live in that part of the country so I will not stray into it. However, I am disappointed in the way they have been vilified.
Nothing has been said about the fallen animals scheme and the good practices carried out by the hunt people on behalf of the community. When a member of the Garda Síochána is called to an accident involving, for example, a horse injured on the road in Dublin or wherever, a vet will come to treat the animal and put it down. He will then telephone the Ward Union Hunt and within 15 or 20 minutes, they will be on the scene to provide a fallen animal service. Who will provide this service, who will take up the slack?
A lot of good work is being undermined in this Bill. I ask the Minister to consider why people are thinking this is the thin end of the wedge. This is why the RISE! people who are coming up here this evening to lobby us, are worried. It is farcical to talk about public safety when the Bill provides that deer can be driven off land with dogs, into other land or into forestry or onto roads. This is not ensuring public safety. We are putting the cart before the horse.
I ask the Minister - with regard to another Bill due before the House - to honour a commitment he made in writing to his Cabinet colleagues in 2008. If that commitment in writing cannot be honoured here by a Minister, can any spoken commitment be believed? I ask him to think of the ordinary, plain people of Ireland who want to continue carrying out practices that have been in existence since old God's time. The Green Party is relatively new. It is in government with us and we have a good relationship. I met the Minister at a conference in the Glen of Aherlow. I would welcome him down again and we could take a walk into the woods and see nature at its best-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)
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We will not go deer-stalking. I am not easy about being part of this Bill and I have serious concerns about upcoming legislation, as the Minister is aware. I rest my case. I thank my colleagues for not heckling.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Deputy should support what he said.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the contributions of Deputy Wallace and Deputy Mattie McGrath. The first shots in the next general election are being fired here this evening. Deputy Wallace and Deputy McGrath, among others on the Fianna Fáil backbenches, will have their opportunity here on Tuesday evening to vote against this Bill and I hope they will do so in the interests of rural Ireland. I advise them not to be hypocrites. If they do not vote against this Bill, they will be seen as the greatest hypocrites this country has ever seen. I will be watching their performance here on Tuesday evening.
I was watching the Minister during the contributions from Deputy Wallace and Deputy McGrath. While he continually interrupted Deputy Phil Hogan, Deputy Emmet Stagg and Deputy Joanna Tuffy, all he could do was to look back over his shoulder at Deputy Wallace in particular, with his mouth wide open in a state of shock. It shows how little thought was put into this Bill by the Minister and into the interests of the people of rural Ireland.
I emphasise that I am totally opposed to this legislation, as a representative of Longford-Westmeath and as a countryman who supports the rural pursuits and unique heritage and tradition of field sports. While saying this, I have also spent my life caring for animals and likewise I oppose any cruelty to them whatsoever. However, there are ways of ensuring animal safety and indeed, human safety, other than those proposed in this legislation. In what can only be seen as totally appropriate, an English newspaper yesterday contained the headline, "Yes, It's Gormley Again". While this piece of journalistic endeavour did not refer to the current Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the sentiment fully endorses the feelings of rural Ireland. The people of rural Ireland and urban Ireland are very angry with the way he has behaved since he became Minister. The Minister's name is synonymous with an increasing number of initiatives that have brought heartache and economic fall-out to rural and urban areas. Unfortunately, this legislation is a continuation of that trend. No matter which way we look at it, this Bill is rural legislation being imposed by an urban-based Minister who, with all respects, does not have a rural heritage.
John Gormley (Dublin South East, Green Party)
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How does the Deputy know that?
4:00 pm
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I know that well. The Minister is interrupting me. Why did he not interrupt the two previous speakers?
What the Minister fails to acknowledge is that hunting creates a sense of community in rural areas. My farm has facilitated hunting throughout my life and both my father and grandfather before him allowed the hunts to pass through our lands. I will continue to allow them do so. Hunting unites farmers and sports people for a common recreational purpose and tradition.
I am deeply concerned at the appalling actions of the Minister and his wilting Green Party, which are aimed at destroying country wide field sports. The fact this Bill could be the opening salvo in a stealth attack on all field sports is of deep concern to me and my constituents in the midlands. Were there to be restrictions on other areas of country life, recreation and rural tourism, the rural population would suffer extreme hardship and unemployment and rural depopulation would escalate.
I should, of course, be relaxed and at ease about the threat to field sports, as I got the Minster's assurance that they are not at risk in reply to an Adjournment matter I tabled last April. The Minster stated then:
Last year, the Government approved the drafting of legislation to prohibit the hunting of deer by a pack of hounds. I want to make it clear that this legislation will not have any implications for other country pursuits such as fox hunting, hare coursing or deer stalking. Hunting with harriers and beagles will still be permitted and, therefore, foxhound, harrier and beagle hunting associations in the State can continue to operate as before as this legislation will not impact on them.
However, my trust in this is upset by a picture in my mind of the Minister with his fingers crossed behind his back, saying "Not yet anyway", under his breath.
I cannot help but think of the way the Minister and the Government sold out the turf-cutters in the midlands and throughout the country. How did his heritage brief come into the reckoning when he was destroying centuries of tradition? The Minister must refuse to put EU directives ahead of the welfare of rural turf cutters. Turf cutting is a skill that has passed from fathers to sons and daughters and is a community activity that fosters pride in a locality. Those involved are keenly aware of environmental issues and co-operate with local authorities in ensuring that bogs are kept waste free by removing domestic waste and other illegal dumping. Turf cutting is part of our culture and tradition. As such it faces the encroaching globalisation that is stripping us of our unique heritage. No compensation could make good the loss of the tradition of generations.
This is not to say that environmental considerations can be overlooked. The survival of our unique flora and fauna must be balanced against turbary rights. However, the Minister presided over the greatest assault on the rights of domestic turf cutters to the detriment of rural people, leaving a bitterness he has ignored but that will return to haunt him at the next election. This is a serious concern considering the 16,000 people on the live register in Longford-Westmeath and the 439,100 unemployed throughout the country. As the Minister pursues his blinkered course, more and more jobs will slip through the Government's fingers. While the initial target of the ban is stag hunting, groups such as anglers see the ban as a prelude to a wider and more aggressive so-called green agenda in the future. An eel farmer was recently put out of business in Westmeath. This ban could be the end of countryside recreation as we know it and another blow to our already hard hit tourism industry.
Perhaps this Bill is part of the syndrome that sees the Government wasting money the country does not have on frog and bat surveys. While the bats may be deserting the belfries, the Government is taking their place. Important legislation that will have a positive impact on this country is being deferred every day in the House, but the Minister thinks it is important to waste time and resources to highlight this narrow green driven agenda, at the expense of solving economic and social problems. Neither I nor Fine Gael share his misguided ideas. Rural Ireland is under threat and our traditional way of life faces destruction. Through the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010, the Green Party, which is an urban based party, essentially puts a ban on our rural way of life, rural tradition, tourism and the rural economy.
Following this legislation, the anti puppy farming Bill will see the Minister break another promise. That Bill will turn into an anti- kennel and anti-greyhound Bill. Before the Minister rushes headlong into creating more devastation in this sector, he should consider the fact that greyhound coursing and racing support 11,000 jobs and add €500 million each year to our economy. Deputy Wallace was right on that. The Bill will have a devastating effect on jobs if it is allowed go ahead. While €500 million may appear small change to a Government which thinks nothing of throwing €22 billion of taxpayers' money into the gutter, the revenue generated is extremely important to hard pressed rural communities.
The Minister's extraordinarily blinkered approach to the banning of deer hunting by stags has led him to remove the provision from the Animal Health and Welfare Bill and introduce it as stand-alone legislation, the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill 2010. This strikes me as unnecessary point scoring and an outright attack on those who have protested against the legislation in any form. It reinforces the Government system of democracy by numbers. As I said previously in the House, I was shocked to see on the Minister's website the no-holes-barred assertion that the Green Party intended to attack coursing and fox hunting and secure a legislative ban on all blood sports. As in most things, we know there is no consensus with the Green Party's partner in Government, Fianna Fáil. In April, the Fianna Fáil Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, said there was no Government proposal or Bill to ban stag hunting. How wrong he was.
Research indicates that hunting had an economic value of €111.6 million in 2007, but the Minister must not have noted this. This value is broken down as follows: game shooting, €41.7 million; hunting with hounds, €34.2 million; coursing, €26.2 million; deer shooting, €8.9 million; and falconry, €0.6 million.
I cannot emphasise strongly enough the devastation to the sporting, economic, leisure and tourism activities of any ban on field sports, hare coursing or stag hunting. Any such move would be detrimental to the country as a whole and to the countryside in particular.
The voices of the 300,000 field sports members have been loud in opposition to this Bill. Banning hunting, which is a strong tradition in rural Ireland going back centuries and over many generations, would be a threat to the rural way of life and would be strongly resisted by rural people and by people living in towns who participate in rural sports, many of whom I am delighted to welcome onto my farm every spring. Deer and fox hunting have had a long history in this country since the 19th century and earlier. The Ward Union Hunt, which is the only licensed stag hunt in the country, covers areas of north County Dublin, together with the south and east of County Meath. I note this is Deputy Wallace's constituency and I wonder whether she would have been so voluble on this issue had it not affected part of her constituency. I hope so, in the interests of country pursuits. The hunt maintains its own herd of 150 red deer. The stags are not generally killed but are recaptured and returned to the herd. Each stag is checked before and after the hunt and its stress levels recorded. Moreover, each stag is hunted only once a year and is checked by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government's wildlife officers and veterinarians. The Ward Union Hunt has 200 members and contributes €1.4 million to €1.5 million to the economy each year.
As there are 27,000 members of the National Association of Regional Game Councils who are organised in 926 clubs, the Minister can assess the impact of any attempt to curtail or prohibit field sports of this nature. My constituency of Longford-Westmeath contains 2,000 members of the National Association of Regional Game Councils, 800 of whom are affiliated to the Longford Shooting and Conservation Council and 1,200 of whom are affiliated to the Westmeath Regional Game Council. I ask the Minister to consider the implications of this ill-considered threat to the Ward Union's carted stag hunt and field sports. I do not know what he hopes to gain from the interference in a well-regulated sporting sector. However, I am aware of the great losses that would be incurred by sporting organisations, tourism groups and the economy.
Ironically, the greatest loss could be to the Minister himself and to his Government, which has presided over the rape of the countryside. The Minister, Deputy John Gormley, who I am pleased to note has returned to the Chamber, is pushing a narrow Green Party agenda and is merely attempting to cover up the failed record of his party in Government. This has included protecting bankers over citizens by virtue of a banking bailout of €73 billion that even Professor Patrick Honohan has argued was too broad. As I noted previously, last week it emerged that €22 billion has been wasted in the toxic Anglo Irish Bank. I also refer to the Government's failure to take early and decisive action in the budget in 2008 and the Minister's complete lack of a job strategy at a time of record unemployment when almost 450,000 people are out of work.
Moreover, the Minister is delaying investigations into the Dublin Docklands Development Authority to protect his partners in Government, namely, the Taoiseach, Deputy Brian Cowen, and associates. The Government's failures also include slashing allowances for the blind, those with disabilities and children, as well as taking medical cards from the elderly. In addition, last year the Minister voted in the Dáil in support of Deputies Willie O'Dea and Bertie Ahern and the Minister, Deputy Mary Harney. He has helped to vote down all attempts to hold the three outstanding by-elections. He has overseen a water system that is not fit for purpose and which acts as a drag on the economy. He literally was asleep during the night of the bank guarantee scheme. I hope the Minister is not sleeping here today, as I notice he is nodding a little. He has engaged in a campaign against rural Ireland to appease his own narrow base of supporters. These are all factors that will militate against the Minister.
The Government has destroyed the farming sector and has left rural areas without viable infrastructure, transport, health and educational facilities. Lack of funding and lack of support has left farmers at the mercy of directives, which have consumed their meagre resources, etc.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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One minute remains to the Deputy.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Government has presided over the destruction of the REP scheme for farmers. It was a wonderful rural incentive to clean up the community and to help farmers to deal with problems arising in the countryside. The Government has decimated this great scheme and I am surprised the Minister was not more voluble on this issue. He has let people down badly in this regard. Furthermore, in an action that hit small householders and young farmers, etc., installation aid for young farmers has been done away with. The Government has literally destroyed this country.
As I noted earlier, the revolt is under way. I overheard Deputy Mattie McGrath state earlier that he is highly disappointed with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who is from the same county as Deputy Wallace. I can see the Fianna Fáil backbenchers lining up in the Chamber and I hope that on Tuesday, they will enter the lobbies with the Opposition parties to oppose this legislation. Were they to so do, they would do their country some justice.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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The Deputy's time has expired.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Moreover, I expect them to be men and women enough to do so in the interest of fair play and of the citizens and communities they represent.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Deputy Bannon's time has concluded. I understand Deputy Johnny Brady intends to share time.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I intend to share time equally with Deputy Thomas Byrne with ten minutes each.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to have this opportunity to contribute to this important debate. Many people are highly concerned about this Bill and are fearful for the many other rural pursuits that are practised and engaged in. This legislation is being perceived as an attack that will lead to a ban on all field sports. The organisations opposed to the Bill represent more than 300,000 people involved in country pursuits. Rural field sports are family-orientated activities that are not ageist, sexist or racist. Generations of Irish people have taken part in such healthy, outdoor and family activities. Rural sports are an important economic activity in many rural communities and provide important support to the farming and bloodstock industry. As a rural Deputy, I represent an area in which there are two hunt clubs on my doorstep, namely, the Ballymacad Hunt and the Meath Hunt. I know exactly how important both these hunts are to the local community. They have major support across a broad area. Foxhunting nationally is a major contributor to the economy in the absence of any State support.
The Government has decided that stag hunting should cease for animal welfare and public safety reasons. The purpose of the Bill is to give legislative effect to the commitment in the renewed programme for Government to ban the practice of stag hunting with a pack of hounds. I call on the Minister to conduct a full regulatory impact assessment before proceeding with this Bill and to consult further with all stakeholders. A ban on the Ward Union Hunt will remove €1.4 million in spending power annually from the north-east region. A similar ban or restriction on other field sports would reduce spending power nationally by well over €100 million.
Hunting is part of the bedrock foundation of the €1.1 billion thoroughbred racing business. Each year, 80,000 visitors come to this country to take part in or watch equestrian sports and they spend an estimated €53.9 million. Deer hunting is closely monitored by Government inspectors. It operates under the terms of a strict licensing, inspection and monitoring system imposed by the Minister.
Hunts make a vital contribution to farming by providing farmers with a fallen animal collection service on a daily basis. Dead cattle and sheep are disposed of through this service. Without it there are risks in terms of animal disease control and to animal husbandry. Farming costs will increase as a result of the ban. What alternatives will be put in place by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to facilitate a cost-effective fallen animal collection service and on-site post mortem facilities? The prompt and secure removal and appropriate disposal of fallen stock is essential to mitigating the potential effect such carcases might have on human, animal and environmental health. What is a farmer to do with a dead carcass on the farm? In most cases farmers wish to know what caused the death of a cow, sheep or other animal and they call their local vet to carry out a post mortem examination on the carcass. By law, this cannot be done on the farm and must be carried out only after the Enfer BSE test shows a negative result. The test is carried out at the Ward Union Hunt kennels.
I am not happy, despite the assertion of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, that the legislation will not have any implications for other country pursuits such as fox hunting, hare hunting, hare coursing, shooting, fishing, greyhound racing or deer stalking. I consider the Bill to be an assault on rural Ireland and its traditions.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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This is not the time to elaborate, but the Bill is not an isolated attack on rural Ireland. As a rural Deputy I cannot stand back and witness the destruction of traditions going back generations. There comes a time to say enough is enough-----
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt other speakers. This afternoon I find myself wavering along a very fine dividing line. I plead with the Minister to think again on the issue. Rural Ireland is rightly concerned and annoyed about the devastating impacts for employment in farming and for rural traditions. It is not realistic to focus on no more than three incidents that occurred out of more than 400 hunts conducted in the past ten years. That is particularly so when no account is being taken of the number of deer that are injured or killed on roads and in the Phoenix Park. Is that not a much more serious public safety issue? Banning a hunt in order to address concerns over public safety is an over-reaction.
I stress the major importance and significance of all rural pursuits and the benefits that accrue from them to rural Ireland. I plead for more time and consultation for this debate. I call on the Minister to conduct a full regulatory impact assessment and to consult further with all stakeholders. I had a different view on the Ward Union Hunt following the occurrence of certain incidents, especially the Kildalkey incident. Deputy Wallace outlined the visit to the kennels which led me to reassess my view. Those involved in the Ward Union kennels have put safety measures in place since that incident. Animal welfare is No. 1 on its list. I compliment the kennels on the measures that were put in place, which were explained in detail to us. Those involved showed us the hounds and the deer. The animal welfare in the kennels is first class.
In the context of cruelty to animals, will the Minister indicate what will happen to the beautiful pack of hounds that are in the Ward Union kennels?
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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They will shoot them.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not cruel to put the hounds down by shooting or in whatever other way? Likewise, what will happen to the deer, of which here are 150? As Deputy Mattie McGrath said, we all have deer roaming free in our area. Will the gates be opened and those 150 deer let loose? Is it right to bring someone in to put them down? I do not think so.
I was the first person to speak on the issue at our parliamentary party meeting following the agreement of the programme for Government. I was concerned. I did not know much about the Ward Union Hunt because it is not exactly in my area. However, I know enough about fox hunting and the Ballymacad Hunt and the Meath Hunt. I follow them whenever I am at home, especially around Christmas time. I get great enjoyment from them. I got a commitment from the Taoiseach that evening that nothing else would be affected. That is why, like many of my colleagues, I agreed to the programme for Government.
I say to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, to the Taoiseach and other members of the Government, that if any of the other country pursuits such as fox hunting-----
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is a cop out.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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-----hare hunting, hare coursing, shooting, fishing, greyhound racing and others are threatened, they cannot depend on my support whether this Dáil lasts two months or two years. They will not have my support if anything else is tinkered with.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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There is a vote for the Government.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I will vote with the Government on Tuesday night because I have given that commitment.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I endorse the final statement of my colleague, Deputy Johnny Brady.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Deputy Byrne will be voting with the Government as well.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Nuair atáimid ag caint faoi bheith ag fiach nó ag seilg, táimid ag caint faoi stair agus oidhreacht na hÉireann. Ó aimsir Fionn Mac Cumhaill agus Diarmuid agus Gráinne, tá muintir na hÉireann ag seilg le haghaidh spraoi, bia agus maireachtáil. The old Irish words for hunting - "seilg" and "fiach" - are all the evidence one needs to show that this is an ancient Irish pastime. No translated words from the English, German or Latin languages are required to explain something about this country that has existed for so long. That is the most important point; that hunting must be recognised. In the United Kingdom it has become a class issue. It is not a class issue in this country and it should never be allowed to become one.
The people I represent in Meath East are by and large strongly opposed to the legislation. Farmers are opposed to it, in particular because of the services for fallen animals that the Ward Union Hunt provides and because of the enjoyment they have during the winter watching the hunt passing through their lands. The community itself enjoys the hunt and it binds them together. The racing community is opposed to the Bill because of the economic benefits attached to the hunt. There are four racecourses in County Meath in Laytown, Bellewstown, Navan and Fairyhouse. The Ward Union Hunt itself is the smallest part of the equation. It is quite a small organisation but the benefits that accrue from its activities are spread far and wide throughout the county.
The Ward Union Hunt itself would say that it has not got everything right in the past. People with a contrary view to mine have contacted me and the Minister in that regard. That must be acknowledged. However, in fairness to the Ward Union Hunt, it has made efforts to change and improve things and the improvements are noticeable.
Public safety is raised constantly. We cannot keep talking about an incident, however unfortunate, that took place four years ago in Kildalkey. We cannot keep harping on about that. An incident also occurred at Christmas. They are individual isolated incidents that occur every few years. It is unfortunate that the Minister could not be specific about another incident.
My biggest concern is that we are legislating to target one particular hunt. I question whether it is constitutional to do that. Has the Attorney General advised in that regard? Can one legislate to punish one individual or group? The legislation has similarities to the old Bills of attainder which are not constitutional. How can we as legislators target individuals, people we know? It is not right. They are doing things they and their ancestors have done for generations.
That is the way they live. My colleague and friend, Deputy Mary Wallace, referred to proportionality, which has constitutional implications. President McAleese might consider raising this Bill with the Counsel of State before assenting to it.
This is a very difficult issue for me. I am committed to the Government. I was elected to represent the Fianna Fáil Party in Meath-East and believe we are implementing the right economic policies to get the country back into shape. I must be committed to my constituents, who are absolutely opposed to this legislation. Why are we even spending time on it when there are so many other problems facing the people?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is right about that.
Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister to state in his closing remarks that if this Bill is passed he will have no issues to deal with in regard to animal welfare other than the couple of very minor ones in the programme for Government. The people do not believe there are no other issues. I am trying to explain to them that this Bill is Green Party policy. I want Deputy Gormley, in his capacity as Minister, to explain that there are no other issues. Deputy Johnny Brady outlined his very stark position on this and I agreed with him. The backbenchers of Fianna Fáil certainly agree.
Confidence and reassurance need to be given, particularly to gun clubs, which seem to be of the view that they will be targeted. The confusion is not lessened by some of the Minister's colleagues who differentiate between certain types of shooting and sports activities in their statements. That the Minister make the strongest possible statement on other pursuits is essential.
This is a difficult issue and has become very political. It is right that it has become a political issue. My seat will be one of the most prized by the Opposition parties at the next general election. This must also be acknowledged.
I acknowledge the remarks of Deputy McEntee, who said this is a difficult issue for us. He will receive great praise from the people of his constituency for his fight on this issue. He has been reasonable to his Government colleagues and this favour will certainly be returned if the Deputy is in a difficult position if his party is ever in Government.
The Minister's Department is causing many problems in Meath-East over one-off housing applications. I refer to its making submissions on one-off housing applications inside and far away from the Newgrange buffer zone. This is generating great mistrust. I do not know what business the Minister's officials have making submissions on the planning applications of young couples. It is terrible that the Department spends time on this. There is no national policy interest whatsoever in this regard.
When I talk to the people of my constituency, it is not just the issues of the Ward Union Hunt that arise. The Minister must understand that. People ask why he objected to their planning permission applications and makes submissions thereon. The Department is doing so in his name. I ask that it cease doing so because it cannot be legal.
I have always complimented the Minister on his progressive action on zoning and local area plans and I fully endorse and support what he is doing this week through the planning investigations. I come from an area where this activity could not but be supported because of the damage done through bad zoning. However, my problem is with the response to one-off planning applications whose acceptance would keep a community together and give young people a chance to build their own home at a lower cost. If accepted, the couples would not have to go on the council's list or live in certain areas where the facilities are not as good. They would have the opportunity to live in their own communities. The Minister is making it difficult for himself, the Government and me as a Member. I ask the Department to stop making submissions on the applications to which I refer.
This legislation is not right and the Oireachtas should not be targeting individual organisations or groups. I welcome the provision that the Minister is including in the legislation that regularises licensing for shooting game and wildlife. That may give some reassurance to the gun clubs although many of the constituents I spoke to on it today were not convinced.
I ask the Minister to confirm in his closing remarks that there is nothing else he wants to target. He has made such a statement time and again but we badly need to hear one once more.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I am very angry about this issue. I do not have the experience of the Ward Union Hunt that Deputies Johnny Brady, Mary Wallace and Thomas Byrne have. They spoke from the heart about it, specifically on the hunt. I want to follow up on Deputy Byrne's remarks. People believe the Minister is against the Irish countryside. He has his idea of the countryside and does not mind what happens to communities, community groups, football clubs, schools, churches or any other body.
Deputy Byrne mentioned one-off housing, which is irrelevant to this Bill, but it is related to the attitude that informs it. People know the Minister and his party are trying to ensure those who want to live on the farms on which they were born and reared, or near thereto, will no longer have the opportunity to do so.
The Ward Union Hunt has a proud tradition. During the debate on this issue, I became annoyed by the efforts of some to claim the Ward Union Hunt is an old British club that has nothing to do with Ireland. It has a long association with Irish traditions, as Deputy Byrne stated. It is certainly not tied to the elements that have been suggested.
The Bill is short and one could deal with it in five minutes. Its purpose is to deal with the Ward Union Hunt and to make some changes to the fines regime. It makes some welcome changes, as has been said.
The Minister referred to the history of the Ward Union Hunt and outlined the dangers of hunting. He stated his concerns are shared by some of his predecessors. He referred to public safety issues and said it is simply not possible for hunters to prevent deer in flight from leaping through hedges onto public roads. He recalled the incident regarding one deer who entered a children's playground. It is easy to pick out one incident.
Yesterday I spoke to the Minister's colleague from County Meath, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, about the road from Derry to Dublin. It links the capital to the fourth biggest city and Donegal. We are planning to give the Northern Ireland Assembly £400 million to provide a road from Derry to Aughnacloy, yet we have no plans to construct a road from Aughnacloy to Castleshane.
Only a few months ago, a juggernaut came around the corner in Emyvale village and drove straight into a group of houses. It was a miracle that nobody was killed. One family was in Scotland for a few days for a family function and the others were not at home at the time. The houses can be seen by anybody.
Many people have been killed on the road between Monaghan and Emyvale but there is not the same urgency in the House about it as there is about this Bill. We must get our House in order and realise where we can save human lives. I am not saying we should abuse stock; I love stock, I am a farmer and have lived with stock all my life. To isolate this issue and make a big deal about it is a sham.
The Minister states hunting is dangerous to people and hard on the animals. From reports I have read, there are very different views on this. As the Minister's Fianna Fáil colleagues have said, further study needs to be done on it and a report needs to be produced before a hammer is used to crack a nut.