Dáil debates
Wednesday, 17 February 2010
Confidence in Minister for Defence: Motion
3:00 pm
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I move:
That Dáil Ãireann has complete confidence in the Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea.
These are challenging times, possibly the most challenging facing any Government for decades, and the progress of many projects and plans will be subject to constraints on resources. Following on from the difficult decisions we took in the budget and the Estimates, and the review of the programme for Government, we now have a clear agenda going forward.
In the Department of Defence, the priority for the year ahead is to ensure that the Defence organisations maintain the capability to deliver on all of the roles assigned by Government. At the outset, I want to express my complete confidence, and that of the Government, in the Minister for Defence to continue to do his job.
In the midst of the worst global recession since the 1930s, arresting the decline in the strength of the Defence Forces and reaching the recently approved PDF strength of 10,000 will be achieved through prioritised recruitment, with the overarching focus remaining on the operations requirements of the Defence Forces. We are also committed to preparing a new defence White Paper for the period 2011-20 as we plan for the future. I believe the Minister for Defence, with his experience, his ability and his work ethic, is the best person to undertake this work.
I want to avail of the time this motion affords us to outline the massive contribution Deputy O'Dea has made in the Department of Defence. Before I do that, I want to put the Opposition's attack on the Minister in context. Its criticism of him does not arise from anything he has done in the course of his duties as Minister for Defence. I have heard people on the Opposition benches openly try to propagate the myth that the Minister is in breach of the Cabinet code of conduct, as set out in the handbook. This is once again a case of political discourse from the Opposition benches generating more heat than light. The matter of current controversy did not pertain to Deputy O'Dea's responsibilities as a Minister in the Government. It did not pertain to Government policies in any way, shape or form and had nothing to do with his function in the Department of Defence.
The facts are now well known. As the Minister said to the House yesterday, on 21 December a defamation action, taken against the Minister by Sinn Féin Councillor Maurice Quinlivan on foot of remarks made by the Minister in a local Limerick newspaper interview, was mutually agreed and settled in the High Court. As part of that settlement, a statement was read out in court which containing the following paragraph: "It is not suggested by Mr. Quinlivan that Mr. O'Dea acted other than innocently in making such denial and he accepts that there was no intention to mislead on the part of Mr. O'Dea". The Minister for Defence has acknowledged that his recollection of the interview in his original affidavit was wrong and he corrected his mistake when he realised it. He admitted and apologised for this mistake and agreed a settlement in which the other party fully accepted that there was no intention to mislead. The matter was a personal one between him and the local Sinn Féin representative concerned. It was dealt with and resolved in open court over two months ago and the matter is closed.
Clearly, it does not serve the Oireachtas well for people to throw around or imply ill-founded allegations of perjury in a coarse attempt to secure political advantage. Let us be clear, perjury does not arise here and it is despicable that some have suggested it does.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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On a point of order, will the Taoiseach's script be circulated?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It will be circulated. My understanding is that where there is no intention to mislead and the matter is corrected as soon as possible, there is no question of perjury. The position is that for perjury to occur a person must know the statement to be false or not believe it to be true. Perjury in Ireland is governed by common law as the British Act of 1911 governing it never applied to Ireland. That Act is clear that a person has to give evidence which he "knows to be false or does not believe to be true". This formula has been also used in Irish statutes. Thus it is clear that perjury contrary to common law would also not arise where someone was mistaken.
The approach being taken by the Opposition parties indicates that they are once again trying to take the low road to high office. Their intent on a no confidence motion is completely spurious in both timing and motivation.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is the standards which apply on the Government side that are under discussion.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On the issue of timing, Deputy Kenny informed the House yesterday that he found it "truly astonishing that two months after an issue in respect of a Cabinet Minister became public knowledge the Taoiseach did nothing about it. This is a matter of the most serious import." Who is the Deputy trying to fool?
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Who is the Taoiseach trying to fool?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If he was of the view that this matter was of the most serious import why did he not raise it with me when the Dáil resumed last month? Why did he not demand a statement from either me or the Minister for Defence before now? Why are we debating the matter this week? Is it as a result of the traumas Deputy Kenny and his party endured last week?
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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We are discussing it because this is the Parliament.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Leader of Fine Gael trying to divert attention from his crisis by foisting a drama on to somebody else?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is he tabling motions of no confidence because he is afraid that if he does no another party will and that he will once again be seen as being behind the curve?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will tell the Taoiseach one thing-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael's posturing about a motion of no confidence is completely spurious and is merely a diversion.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is a hangover from the hangar.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That party's intent to seek the resignation of the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, is indicative of a growing tendency within the Opposition that focuses on personality rather than on politics. It is sad that once again their approach amounts to playing the man rather than the ball. Rather than be out-done in the sham indignation stakes by Deputy Gilmore, Deputy Kenny has chosen to join him in taking the old discredited Labour approach of seeking "heads in baskets".
The Opposition's eagerness for a motion of no confidence is premised not on the implementation or the administration of the programme for Government commitments on defence, but rather on Deputy Kenny's promise to his parliamentary party in the aftermath of the George Lee debacle that "what I'm going to do now is be myself".
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should deal with the issue.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The waste of valuable hours of Dáil debate on an unnecessary and unjustified motion of no confidence, at a time when there are real and pressing issues to be addressed, owes more to Deputy Kenny's need to prove to his Members that he is, in the words of Deputy Coveney, "up to the job" than it does to any real concern or reservation regarding the running and administration of the Department of Defence.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is about one of the Taoiseach's Ministers, not about one of my party's members.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to say unequivocally that I am happy to affirm complete confidence in the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea. I have the utmost confidence in his abilities and in his capacity to do his job. On my election as Taoiseach it was my privilege to reappoint him as Minister for Defence. Deputy O'Dea has served in that role with distinction and his track-record is second to none. While achievement and ability to do the job obviously count for little to some, I believe the people of this country are fairer minded. They recognise achievement and they know that people sometimes make mistakes. Everyone is in favour of accountability in public office but when people make a genuine mistake which has nothing to do with their official duties and where they have moved to quickly correct that mistake-----
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Who decided that he made a genuine mistake?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----and have settled the matter with the aggrieved party, I do not see why I should listen to the usual, predictable calls from the Opposition to remove from office arguably the best, the most efficient and the hardest-working Minister for Defence to serve the country in recent times.
Members of the Opposition are more interested in innuendo and stirring up controversy than in people's political records.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What about the facts?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to spend some time balancing those books and pointing out that I have the utmost confidence in Deputy O'Dea, who has shown real skills in overseeing the continued modernisation of the Defence Forces and bringing about significant progress across a broad range of areas.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The McCarthy report acknowledged the ongoing modernisation in defence and this is the vein in which I want to see the Minister continue during the period ahead. It is worth pointing out some of the many achievements of Deputy O'Dea as Minister for Defence. He has placed great priority on acquiring equipment and rationalising military barracks. The investment he has overseen has led to an improvement in Defence Forces equipment and resulted in the high level of morale among their members.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should appoint him as Tánaiste.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share time with the Ministers for Finance and Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputies Brian Lenihan and Ryan. I make the point that whether it is in respect of overseas peace support, the development of the medical corps or the involvement of Defence Forces personnel in cash escorts, the Minister has always acted competently.
In highlighting the Minister's achievements and his ongoing programme of work, it is worth considering that in the past two years Fine Gael's spokesman on defence has put forward only three suggestions which differ from those of the Government in respect of defence policy. The number rises to four if one includes the idea put forward by Deputy Kenny in the run-up to the 2007 general election that we should establish Army-run boot camps.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Deputy O'Dea could spend a little time in such a camp.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is scoring heavily now.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The first of the three policy differences to which I refer relates to the triple lock. Unlike the other main political parties - Fianna Fáil, Labour, the Green Party - and the key independents, Fine Gael is committed to abandoning the letter and the spirit of the triple lock of Government, Dáil and UN approval before Irish troops serve overseas. The idea most consistently pursued by Fine Gael is to have the Army drill and fitness instructors deployed in schools to teach PE. That party has also suggested that we replicate the New Zealand model of defence forces administration-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This speech was not written by the Taoiseach.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----which would require us to more than double the number of people working in defence administration from just over 600 to over 1,400.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, write the Taoiseach's speech?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is clear that Fine Gael has little to contribute to discourse on defence policy.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Where are the Green Party members of Government?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael's approach is to try to drag down the Minister and inflict whatever damage it can on the Government to disguise from its lack of ideas and policy.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Did Deputy Gormley write that speech?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Send for the Green Party.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This Government is not going to bow to those cheap tactics. We have full confidence in the Minister for Defence and we look forward to him continuing to serve the Government and the people.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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This matter was raised in the Upper House on Tuesday, 2 February last, and has been in the public domain since then. It was raised by a Senator affiliated to the main Opposition party on the occasion to which I refer. It is now Wednesday, 17 February. Therefore, the enormous sound and fury we have heard from the Fine Gael benches in recent days did not begin on 2 February when the matter was first raised. It was not considered a matter of moment, although it was raised by a member of the Fine Gael parliamentary party on Tuesday, 2 February.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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What is the Minister's point?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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In the past few days, however, it has suddenly become a matter of immense moment.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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This is the case because of the discomfiture of the Opposition at the departure of former Deputy George Lee. That is why the matter is of immense moment now.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thought the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, was a statesman.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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It was of no moment on 2 February and was fit to be left floating on the Seanad's Order of Business on that day. In recent days, however, it has been raised.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Defence raised it himself on Sunday last.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Given that it has been raised, let us deal with the issues involved. There are two crucial issues that arise. The first of these, as has been already outlined by the Taoiseach, is that this entire dispute came to light in the course of a civil proceeding between two individuals before the courts.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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One of whom is a Minister.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Correct. However, being a Minister gives him no special position as a litigant in a court house.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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He does not change the law in the course of an action. The law that applied to him in that action also applied to the other party to it.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Government whip is going-----
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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This was a civil matter which went before the courts and which was brought to a conclusion. Such matters are brought to a conclusion on the basis of both a settlement and the differences of the parties being reconciled.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister should keep talking.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The other party to the action did not in any way refer to this earlier affidavit or suggest that he was compromised in respect of that affidavit.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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He got the lump sum.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The matter was settled to the satisfaction of the two parties involved. That is their conclusion. As far as the public interest is concerned-----
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It did not happen.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The public interest in this matter - with one exception with which I will deal in a moment - ended when the case was settled.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The exception to which I refer is the position Deputy O'Dea holds as a Minister and whether his conduct in court in some way undermined that.
Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Dea swore an oath.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I must make the point that this was a civil action in which no public interest, other than and with the exception of that one matter, remained outstanding when the matter was brought to a conclusion.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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What was the nature of the settlement?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Questions have been raised, not in this House but elsewhere, that the earlier hearing before the High Court on the application for the injunction was in some way compromised or prejudiced by the existence of this statement in the affidavit. In fact, this had no bearing on the matter. Due to the fact that Deputy O'Dea disavowed the allegation, there was no need to give an injunction.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should remember that he is in the Dáil.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The order was made and the other party was never prejudiced because Deputy O'Dea - everyone must accept this - never repeated the allegation.
Brendan HowlinBrian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Let us deal with the principal question that has been raised in an ugly and unpleasant way in recent days. The word "perjury" was used in the Upper House and it has been used very freely in the newspapers. The fact is that perjury occurs only when an intentional misleading occurs.
4:00 pm
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Everyone in this House is aware of that. However, the word "perjury" has been insinuated into the debate and people have nodded and winked in its direction. That has been the approach of Opposition speakers at a time when this country faces far more serious difficulties.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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It is an abuse of public life to have this type of debate even in progress. Deputy Kenny leads the Fine Gael Party; I challenge him to produce any evidence he has that Deputy O'Dea intentionally misled anybody.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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The tape is the evidence.
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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There is no such evidence.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Who is the judge on that?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We heard his explanation yesterday evening. It is an explanation in which he plainly advanced all the reasons he made an honest mistake.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Why did he pay money?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Either he made an honest mistake or-----
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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-----he intentionally misled but there is no evidence that he intentionally misled-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What about the tape?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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-----and to date in this debate the Opposition has not produced a shred of evidence that he intentionally misled anyone on this court proceeding. The Opposition does not have any evidence of this but it constantly insinuates that in some sense he is guilty of an offence which he never committed.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Why did he pay compensation so?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny cannot act, and this morning his spokesperson suggested that the Director of Public Prosecutions might have some role in this matter but there is no evidence being given to the Director of Public Prosecutions on this matter. What we have in this whole political saga is an attempt by Fine Gael to operate as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner. We are not having it.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil is worried about the Sunday newspapers.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I am speaking on behalf of the Green Party to set out how we see the issue. The Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, has spoken to our party and set out his version of events-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Green Party happy with it?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----and we followed, with everyone else-----
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----the various events as reported.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is that why Senator de Búrca left?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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It can be only on the basis of what one sees there that one makes a judgment and assessment.
The facts are clear. They have been gone through and I am sure they will be gone through further. Those facts are the original interview in the Limerick Chronicle following allegations of improper use of civil servants for political work; the allegations during the course of the interview regarding the use of the property by the people in question; the fact that the journalist then contacted those people-----
Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has lost his confidence.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----and asked for comment and they threatened legal action against the newspaper which led to publication of a clarification by the newspaper; and the seeking of a High Court injunction against Deputy Willie O'Dea seeking that he would stop spreading allegations, as I see it-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Which side is the Minister on?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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In April last year the High Court refused an injunction on the basis of a strong denial by Deputy O'Dea that he was spreading allegations; and in June 2009 the person in question was elected to Limerick City Council and pursued a defamation action against Deputy O'Dea who filed an affidavit repeating his denial.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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This led to the discovery of a tape of the interview which showed that the Minister had made such allegations. The crucial matter, as I understand it-----
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister's understanding is not great.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----is that at that point the Minister acknowledged that he had mistakenly stated he had not made the allegations-----
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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When he got caught.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Why would he do that?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----and that he had relied in making such an affidavit on the published interview and in December 2009-----
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Get your gun now, Willie.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----a High Court judge ruled that the case was settled with damages and costs paid by Deputy O'Dea to the person in question. Deputy O'Dea also withdrew and apologised for the wrongful allegations-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Do you think that is all right?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----which apology, as I understand, was accepted by the other party-----
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is not about the other party.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----who also accepted that the earlier affidavit had been a mistake-----
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil is laughing at you.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----and was not an attempt to mislead. That is the crucial issue; when there was a mistake in the affidavit and something that was not true, it was acknowledged in court, dealt with in court, accepted by the other party and reported in the media as such. It was quite some time ago and I do not have the exact details.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What would you say if you were in Opposition?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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As I see it that is the case-----
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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-----and the circumstances have been set out and I do not hear any disagreement.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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You are uncomfortable and squirming.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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They are bringing you down to their level.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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In those circumstances, our job in Government is to get on with the crucial issues that face this country and to start providing the jobs that were mentioned earlier on. That is the crucial task that we have in government.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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I am happy that is what we should be concentrating on, confident that the Government can and will deliver on those jobs having delivered on the change to our budget and banking system, which will also help provide an economic turnaround.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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What a day for the Green Party.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Green Party will save one job anyway - Willie's.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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That is what the public is looking for us to do. That is what we intend to do in Government and will continue to do for the betterment of the country.
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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More soldiers so.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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No credibility. Is that how one can get out of perjury, by stating that one made a mistake?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will share time with Deputies Michael D'Arcy and Brian Hayes.
This is not an untypical response from the Fianna Fáil Party. This is not about Deputy Willie O'Dea; it is about the standards employed by the Taoiseach and the Government.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach's predecessor eloquently stated from the seat in which the Taoiseach is sitting that Fianna Fáil's ethics are to get in here and stay in here at all costs. Those are the ethics of the party the Taoiseach leads.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The good people of Limerick have elected that Deputy for many years, as is their absolute right. However, he is not sitting over there just as a Deputy; he is sitting there as an appointed Cabinet Minister, an officer of the court and a constitutional seal of office holder. As such, standards in that office must be of the highest integrity at a time when politics is in a deep depression of cynicism because of carryon over the years. This is not just about Deputy O'Dea; it is about standards at ministerial level, the highest level of political office in the land which the Taoiseach oversees. The response I heard from him and the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform aided by the present Minister in defending this makes the matter even worse.
The reason for this debate is that a Minister in the Taoiseach's Government, who also happens to be a trained barrister, swore a false affidavit before the High Court and corrected it only when he was caught out on a tape.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny, without interruption.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not a case of a simple mistake.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The last time Deputy O'Dea was caught out on a tape was when he defended his position and his party's position to the taxi men of Limerick-----
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Remember that, Willie?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----only to understand when it was played back to him that what he said when he came out was different from what he said inside.
The facts are these and the Minister from the Green Party should bear them in mind because I will quote him some of his words in a few minutes. The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, told an untruth about another person. It was not a political charge but an accusation that someone was involved in serious criminal activity, namely, operating a brothel. When he was challenged on that false claim, he swore a further untruth, that he had never made the original accusation. Because of that dishonest affidavit, a court refused to grant an order that would have corrected the original claim of criminal activity. In other words, the second highest court in the land made a decision based on the sworn testimony of a Cabinet Minister which was false. It was only when he was presented with irrefutable proof of his own voice and his own deceit that he corrected this false affidavit and made a settlement payment to the person he had wrongly accused.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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First he stated this was a mistake. If the Minister is so used to making allegations like this that he cannot remember one specific instance then the Cabinet and the Government really have a bigger problem. If the Minister, Deputy O'Dea believed what he told that journalist then he should have gone to the Garda SÃochána and reported it in the first instance.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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They reported it to me.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The notion that any normal human being can say to a journalist "That man runs a brothel" and then forget that he said it when part of it was in print in the newspaper the following day just beggars belief.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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He is blaming the Garda now.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It was never in print.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The second defence put forward was that both the slander and the false affidavit to the High Court were perpetrated by Willie O'Dea, private citizen, not Willie O'Dea, Minister.
Invisible hairs are being split here. A belief in the capacity to separate private impropriety from public office now appears to be standard operating procedure for Fianna Fáil in Government. We heard precisely the same logic from the Taoiseach's predecessor when he stated in regard to his Manchester whip-round that despite the fact that he was Minister for Finance at the time, he was Bertie Ahern, private citizen, when he was handed £15,000 in a brown envelope.
The Taoiseach's defence of his Minister comes straight from Fianna Fáil's code of operations. He claimed the Minister broke no code of ministerial ethics. The reason he broke no code is because some things are so obviously unethical that it would be laughable to include them in the code in the first place. For example, one would think the sentence: "Do not lie to the High Court" is redundant to a code of ministerial conduct.
The Taoiseach failed to answer specific questions regarding the steps he took in the two months since the issue was brought to his attention. His colleague is involved in a matter of importance. Equally, we have no indication that another Minister attempted to seek an explanation for these events. This is about the Minister as distinct from the Deputy. It appears that it was not an issue for anyone in this Government until it became the subject of an editorial in a national newspaper yesterday. That the Taoiseach and the Minister for Defence define their ethics by the specific warnings of a code of conduct rather than by a moral compass points to a lack of morality which is endemic to their party and which smears the good name of every Member of this House by association.
The vote before us is simple. If Deputies believe it is wrong for a Minister to tell an untruth in a sworn affidavit in the High Court, they can have no confidence in the Minister for Defence. If they believe it is appropriate for a Minister to swear a false and defamatory affidavit in the High Court, they can vote their support for him and, by doing so, define publicly their own political morality. These are the questions that must be answered by Fianna Fáil and Green Party Members when they vote on this issue.
The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government gave the following address on 24 February 2007:
It's great to be back in Galway. I came down on the overcrowded train...there's a strange cult called Fianna Fáil, a type of religion without vision or values; and every year in August they go on their annual pilgrimage to one of their sacred sites, the tent at the Galway races, where they pay homage to their gods and the gods bestow them with gifts for doing their bidding...The Green Party wants high standards in high places...
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He continued:
...not because we are particularly virtuous, but because strong ethical standards improve the quality of our democracy. We do it because we recognise that there are now three Governments in this country - the permanent Government, which is the civil service; the present Government, if you can call it that, consisting of the PDs and Fianna Fáil; and the real Government which are the gods in the Ballybrit tent...We will introduce the strictest ethical standards ever seen in this country.
Three years on, the Green Party now has the chance to live up to these words.
On 12 November 1996, speaking on a motion of no confidence in the then Minister for Justice, Deputy O'Dea, stated:
If accountability means anything, blame must sometimes be taken and consequences sometimes ensue in the absence of knowledge and, therefore, in the absence of culpability in that sense. If that were not the position nobody would ever have to resign because, however great the disaster, it could never be proved as a definitive fact that a Minister had actual as opposed to constructive knowledge.
Here speaks a trained barrister and a supremely confident and energetic politician who knows the law of the land. He now serves not only as a back bench Deputy but also as one of the highest officers of the State in his position of Minister for Defence. How can anyone stand over this situation?
Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny has not produced a shred of evidence.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The former and current Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform are defending this state of affairs around the Cabinet table.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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It would not happen in any other Parliament.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Unlike Fine Gael Members we do not assassinate people, such as poor old George last week.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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You have a lifetime's experience of it.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The last time an issue involving a tape was raised was in the case of the good father of the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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He was used for a couple of months and then he was thrown away.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow Deputy Kenny to continue.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I put it to the House that the Minister, Deputy O'Dea-----
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The greatest character assassination was carried out by his colleagues after George left last Monday.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is supposed to stand over high standards.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It was a character assassination and now he is at it again.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not simply about the Minister, Deputy O'Dea. This is an act of criminality against the laws of the State which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is supposed to uphold and the Taoiseach is supposed to implement.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As I said the other day, he is returning to type.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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You got rid of him just because he did not suit your purposes.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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You threw him to the wolves.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Dermot Ahern, please allow Deputy Kenny to continue without interruption.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Deirdre de Búrca was right.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Neither the Minister for Defence nor any other Minister would have lasted five minutes in a Government of which I was a Member.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Or any other Government.
Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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What about the money in the off-shore accounts? What a hypocrite you are.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Gather the wagons around the Minister for Defence. Fianna Fáil's ethics are get in here and stay in here, regardless of whether one makes a false affidavit and corrects it when found out by tape.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That is why Deputy Kenny took it out on George.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It makes no difference whether one is a Minister as long as the "FF, we rule" imprint is on one's heart. The law it makes, the law it breaks. The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, broke it as a Deputy and as Minister. He said it was an honest mistake but the person opposite me cannot be divided into Deputy, citizen and Minister. He is the Holy Trinity in one.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny departed from his script.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and all the other Ministers recognise that too.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A serious and fundamental issue of standards has arisen but Ministers will not oversee or implement these standards. When the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, casts his vote this evening, he should remember his standards and the words of his absent leader.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Iris Robinson was fired for less.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Between yesterday's statement by the Minister for Defence and today's statement's by the Taoiseach, an important intervention was made. The Official Report will show that the Minister, Deputy Willie O'Dea, intervened while the leader of my party, Deputy Enda Kenny, was speaking. He indicated in the course of the debate that the Garda informed him about the alleged incident and the owners of the property concerned. The Official Report will show that. If he obtained this information from the Garda, the question that inevitably follows is why exactly he settled. Why did he not put it in his statement or affidavit? Why did he not inform the House of that fact yesterday?
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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He forgot that too.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister forget that as well?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The information was wrong.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is he now denying that in an intervention to the leader of my party, Deputy Kenny, he suggested that the information came from the Garda SÃochána? Is that a fact?
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Why exactly did he not put that in his affidavit?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It turned out to be wrong.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Blame everybody else but yourselves.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Brian Hayes, without interruption.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Now it is the fault of the Garda SÃochána. This is some turn-up for the books. If ever we had a political Pinocchio, it has to be the Minister. This is getting worse by the minute. It means that he mislead the House yesterday. He did not put that information on the record yesterday. Why not? Why did he blurt it out today to save his political backside when he is up against the pressure of this debate?
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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That is his problem.
Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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We will soon have an opportunity to test the Deputy's recollection.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise one other issue. The Minister made the original allegation on 10 March. On 14 April he signed a sworn affidavit to the courts. As a barrister, he is an officer of the court. He is a senior Cabinet Minister. That was four weeks later. It was not four months, years or decades. It was four weeks after he made the very serious allegations against the gentleman concerned. Why did he not check it out? Why did he not go back to check his sources? Why did he not go to all of the third parties concerned? All of this smells of Fianna Fáil circling the wagons.
I have a question for one member of the Government who is not present - I do not mind the Greens, they are hugely irrelevant in all of this anyway.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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They are gone anyway.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Where is Deputy Mary Harney, the person who built her career on trying to smoke out low standards in the Fianna Fáil Party?
Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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She is fully, 100% behind the Minister, Deputy O'Dea.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Does she support the concoction the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, gave to the House yesterday, of which the House has been given another version today? Sir, I put it to you that the House has no confidence in the Minister, Deputy O'Dea.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Kenny said, this is a pattern of behaviour-----
James ReillyBrian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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-----over many years. He has been found out for the fraud that he is.
Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I compliment the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan. It is always a pleasure to watch a skilful lawyer defending the indefensible. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, dropped the ball. Not only that, he knocked it on. Every person in the Chamber can see his body language and that he does not believe one word from the Minister, Deputy O'Dea.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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The Deputy should look back on what I said and show me any inaccuracies. I will listen with interest.
Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister had his moment. The Greens spoke about principles. Marx spoke about principles also - Groucho Marx. He said not to worry about those ones, we have others. The Green Party has none.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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We are trying to get this country out of its economic difficulties. We will continue to do that.
Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should be quiet.
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Chair should protect the speaker.
Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies opposite interrupted all the time.
Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We are here today as a result of the actions of the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, not Fine Gael. His actions against Councillor Maurice Quinlivan were slanderous. The Minister paid up because he was wrong. The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, got down in the political trench, picked up a ball of political mud and threw it at someone he considered to be an adversary. What has happened since then? Nothing more or less than a good old Irish-style cover up. Every person opposite will vote on the motion. They are voting for the continuation of the same old-style Irish politics that has been tarnished by Fianna Fáil for the past 25 years.
The Taoiseach said he would re-establish the primacy of this Chamber. They were his words. What we are seeing today is more of the same from the Bertie Ahern era that tarnished politics and every good Member of this House who works hard and does his or her best for the citizens of the State.
Let us remember another Minister in that position, namely, Ray Burke. We remember him drawing the line in the political sand and how he said no one should cross that line, and that he was telling the truth. He did not tell the truth. He lied, and so did the Minister, Deputy O'Dea. Shame on him. He has tarnished the Parliament, as always.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I wish to share my time with Deputy Joan Burton.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Labour Party will support the motion of no confidence in the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea. We will oppose the motion that has been proposed by the Taoiseach.
The Labour Party has no confidence in the Government as a collective entity or in the Ministers in their individual capacities. This is the Fianna Fáil Government that has brought this country to the brink of economic ruin.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This is a Government that has allowed unemployment to climb to unprecedented levels and permitted emigration to return to levels not seen since the 1980s. This is a Government that has presided over massive job losses at Dell, in the constituency of the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, at Waterford Crystal and in many other plants without taking any meaningful action to try and save those jobs. This is a Government that failed to take the required action to save jobs at SR Technics and which has subsequently made such an absolute and utter mess of the offer by Ryanair to provide up to 500 highly skilled jobs at Dublin Airport.
This is a Fianna Fáil Government that remains totally indifferent in the face of a forecast from FÃS that the numbers out of work will increase by 87,000 in the coming year and a warning from the Irish Bank Officials' Association that as many as 10,000 jobs could be lost in the banking sector.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore is worrying about the banking sector very late in the day.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It did nothing to even try to save the jobs in Bank of Scotland-Ireland. This is a Fianna Fáil Government that has placed a financial millstone around the necks of not just the current generation of taxpayers, but of Irish taxpayers for generations to come. This is a Government that wrote a blank cheque for the banks when it agreed in as yet unexplained circumstances on the night of 30 September 2009 to provide a guarantee for the banks, exposing the taxpayer to a potential liability of â¬440 billion.
This is the Government that manoeuvred to avoid a full parliamentary inquiry into the banking crisis, and instead forced through a private, behind closed doors limited inquiry that specifically excludes the events of 30 September 2009 from its limited terms of reference. This is the Fianna Fáil Government that in every year of its record since 1997 has placed the interests of bankers and developers above those of the ordinary taxpayer. This is the Government that has handed over â¬4 billion to Anglo Irish Bank and another â¬7 billion to AIB and Bank of Ireland. This is the Government, led by a Taoiseach who has indicated he is prepared to write any cheque, no matter what the cost, to rescue the bankers.
This is a Fianna Fáil Government whose determination to leave no stone unturned to bail out the developers is in stark contrast to its indifference to the tens of thousands of families who are living in fear of losing their homes because the breadwinner has lost his or her job. This is the Fianna Fáil government that has failed to provide people with the decent health service they deserve. Only last week the Comptroller and Auditor General reported that there had been a major increase in the number of people waiting more than 12 hours in accident and emergency units for admission in the first five months of 2009 when compared to the same period in 2008.
This is the Fianna Fáil Government that has taken the unprecedented step of cutting the welfare payments of the blind, widows and those with disabilities. This is the Government that has cut the pay of poorly paid public servants on two occasions in the past year. Faced with the choice of taking some extra tax from super-high earners, or hitting those on welfare or low pay, there is never any real issue for this Fianna Fáil Government.
Let us make no mistake about it; this is a Fianna Fáil Government and it is a misnomer to refer to it as anything else. It is not a coalition government in any accepted sense of the term. We know from the revealing statements made by former Senator De Búrca that Fianna Fáil has little regard for the Green Party, that it can casually renege on agreements made and is quite prepared, in the phrase attributed to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, to shaft the Greens whenever necessary.
This is a deadbeat Government led by a Taoiseach who failed to live up to even the low expectations of his opponents and which is made up of Ministers who are demoralised, disenchanted and disillusioned. They have nothing to offer people other than more years of bungling and incompetence. The best service they could now offer to the people is to submit themselves to the verdict of the electorate; allow for a change of government and direction; give others the opportunity to undo the damage they have caused; and clear the way for the process of recovery and reconstruction to begin.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We will have the old Stickies in. Never.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, as a member of the Cabinet must accept his share of the responsibility for the economic damage and social destruction that Fianna Fáil has wrought on the people. However, it is another matter, of enormous importance and significance that has led to the tabling of this motion of no confidence in the Minister.
Leaving aside the broader issues I referred to, there are two reasons I believe the House should now express no confidence in the Minister, Deputy O'Dea. The first is that he made an absolutely scurrilous and unfounded allegation about a political opponent in his constituency, an allegation that he was subsequently forced to admit was totally and utterly without foundation. The second is that he swore an affidavit that contained a blatant untruth. What was the allegation made by the Minister against Councillor Quinlivan? In his interview with the Limerick Chronicle Mr. O'Dea claimed that Councillor Quinlivan was involved in some way in the operation of a brothel in Limerick. "Do you know the brothel they found in his name and in his brother's name down in Clancy Strand", he asked the journalist conducting the interview. It is difficult to think of a more serious, more scurrilous and more potentially damaging allegation that could be made against a political opponent.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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During an election.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about printing money?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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In his personal explanation to the House last night, the Minister said, "I have never said that I lied on oath, as I was never on oath".
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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However, an affidavit is sworn evidence, given on oath and is the equivalent of evidence given on oath in the witness box.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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My understanding is that any person making a sworn affidavit to the High Court must do so in the presence of a Commissioner for Oaths. The commissioner then reads over the affidavit to the person making it who will then be asked to either agree or disagree with its content. If one agrees with its content, one takes the Bible in one's right hand and swears to almighty God, or alternatively affirm, that the affidavit one has sworn is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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To the best of one's knowledge, information and belief.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The same rules of evidence must apply to everyone regardless of one's rank or position in Irish society.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Minister wants us to examine his swearing a false affidavit only from the point where his barrister made an agreement with Councillor Quinlivan's barrister â an agreement duly reported to the court. Councillor Quinlivan's reasons for accepting an amount in damages and his costs in return for agreeing a settlement statement is entirely a matter for him. The issue that affects Deputy O'Dea's fitness to be a Minister is why he swore a false affidavit to the court in the first place, which caused the court to dismiss Mr. Quinlivan's application for an injunction to stop the Minister repeating his charge that Mr. Quinlivan was associated with running a brothel.
Deputy O'Dea swore he never made any such allegation. He maintained this position until the journalist to whom he had peddled this falsehood produced the tapes.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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That is a very incorrect version. It is a twisted version.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is twisted all right.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Faced with incontrovertible evidence the Minister asks us to believe that he acknowledged his error. He forgot. How could be forget creeping around Limerick alleging a rival candidate was running a brothel?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The journalist knows whether I knew I was being taped or not.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister a member of the NUJ?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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How could anyone forget making such a charge?
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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He will get his P45 next week.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Would any other Member stoop to making such a charge in the first place, if it were untrue? Is it acceptable behaviour for any Member, whether a Minister or not, to use a political campaign to slander a rival candidate and to implicate him in particularly grubby criminal behaviour?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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There was no campaign.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Not only did Deputy O'Dea have no qualms about imputing criminal conduct to a political rival, he had no regard for the integrity of the journalist to whom he whispered his lies. Only when the journalist sought to defend his integrity by producing the tapes did the Minister remember his "mistake".
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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This is a distortion. This is typical stickie stuff. This is old stickie, Worker's Party stuff.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The only explanation for Deputy O'Dea forgetting that he called a rival a brothel keeper is that it is a pretty commonplace charge for him to make.
I am amazed that the Taoiseach should seek to retain in Cabinet a man who wilfully committed perjury. If this happened in the neighbouring jurisdiction, a Minister would not last until the end of the day. Deputy O'Dea is â as he is fond of telling us â a barrister and an officer of the court and he knows well the implications of swearing a false affidavit. Members of this House have ended up in the criminal courts for matters less grave than swearing a false affidavit. Loyalty can be an admirable quality but the Taoiseach's loyalty to Deputy O'Dea in this instance undermines any claims that he will enforce decent standards in his Government.
Having listened to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, we can all now agree with former Senator de Búrca that she was right. The Green Party Ministers will dance to any and every Fianna Fáil tune. Is there anything that the two Green Ministers would not do to stay in office? The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources offered us a chronological description of what Deputy O'Dea said happened. Is the Green Party's new standard to parrot Deputy O'Dea's excuse? Where now are the high standards they called for so many times over the years?
I like the Green Party. I like its politics.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Deputy is on his own.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore should look out behind him.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Why is that not an unfamiliar feeling? It is one thing for the Taoiseach not to take the Green Party seriously and he has them not just as passengers but as hitchhikers in Government.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should stop humiliating them. I felt embarrassed for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources who the Taoiseach dragged into the House to say things he did not believe.
Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)
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To serve in office is not humiliating. If the Deputy was in Government, he might see that. It is with pride that one represents the people in Government. One never sees it as a humiliating experience. It is an honour to serve in Government.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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This is a disreputable chapter that will bring this House into disrepute if a majority in the House supports this kind of conduct by a Minister. What standards will apply in this House if a Minister can plead honest mistake because he supposedly forgot giving an interview connecting a political rival to brothel keeping?
Deputy O'Dea is not just any Minister. He has political responsibility for the Defence Forces which discharge certain security functions on behalf of the State. Deputy O'Dea was previously a Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and, if my memory serves me correctly, was on occasions delegated the full functions of the office when the senior Minister was out of the country.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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An allegation of having sworn a false affidavit would be a serious matter for any Minister. In the case of Deputy O'Dea the allegation is of such seriousness that it renders him unsuitable to hold the office he now occupies.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will quote from the transcript of the taped conversation for the benefit of those who may not have heard it. I wish, á la Richard Nixon, that Deputy O'Dea would agree to have the tape played because it must be extant.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It would be a best-seller if the Minister put it on the market.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Irish democracy deserves to hear the tenor and tone of the conversation, which was as follows:
"Willie O'Dea: ...while occasionally we send out letters to planning applicants we have never been involved with anyone who shot anybody, or robbed banks, or kidnapped people. I suppose I'm going a bit too far when I say this but I'd like to ask Mr Quinlivan is the brothel still closed?"
Mike Dwane [the journalist]: Is the brothel still closed?
Willie O'Dea: Is the brothel still closed?
Mike Dwane: What brothel is that Willie?... "
The Minister remembers it. He is smiling fondly in recollection.
Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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Will Deputy Burton get an Oscar for this refrain?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The transcript continues:
"Willie O'Dea: Do you know the brothel they found in his name and in his brother's name down in Clancy Strand?
Mike Dwane: I never heard about that.
Willie O'Dea: Did you not hear that? You better check your sources. There was a house owned by him that was rented out and they found two ladies of the night operating in there in the last couple of weeks".
Limerick's own Belle de Jour and Deputy O'Dea was familiar with it all.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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At least he was not found in the brothel.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The transcript continues:
"Mike Dwane: Right. The other one I wanted to ask you about Willie was were you disappointed to see Noreen Ryan in the witness box?
Willie O'Dea: I don't want to talk about that..."
We should hear that tape because it would sound fantastic
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It would be a best-seller.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I refer to Deputy O'Dea's affidavit sworn on oath. He states, "I most categorically and emphatically deny that I said to Mr Dwane that the plaintiff was a part-owner of said apartment. I did not at any time say to any other person that the plaintiff had any ownership of the apartment. Neither did I say at any time to any person that the plaintiff had any involvement in the operation of the brothel".
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Perjury, pure and simple.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In the view of most people who understand ordinary language, not senior counsel such as the Minister or the Minister for Finance, that was a lie, an untruth or a misstatement on oath and not a mistake. People have been taught from a young age about making a statement under oath. One barrister and two solicitors are sitting on the Government benches and, given all their extensive legal education and training, they know the system of oaths is fundamental to our system of justice, however nice and charming a Minister is and however fond the Green Party Ministers are of him or her. I can understand why the Green Party members are fond of the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, and why they might have a good relationship with him. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, spoke as though there was a large peg on his nose, but obviously the Green Party members are fond of the Minister.
Oaths are fundamental to our system of justice. If people actually lie on oath it is a serious matter.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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If they lie deliberately.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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He is taking counsel from the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, now.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is even more serious when it is done by a Government Minister who is also an officer of the court.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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After that they can forget it.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Since Fianna Fáil returned to power in 2007, the economy has been destroyed and 60,000 people, most of them young, have emigrated. What are those young people who are left in the country, perhaps still in school, supposed to think about the standards of a Dáil in which a Minister can act as this Minister has done?
Everybody can make a mistake in life.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Everyone can make a statement that is misunderstood or wrongly taken up. That is why I wanted to read out what the Minister said to the journalist and what he then said in his affidavit. The commentary he made last night was along the lines of "I made an error, but I 'fessed up and apologised". Most people understand and appreciate that. However, given the kind of politician he has been in terms of his tremendous ability to win the confidence of the people of Limerick and his experience as a Minister in a series of different offices at senior and junior level, it is impossible to believe that he could have forgotten something as detailed as this.
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is it. It is not credible.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Burton for the compliment.
Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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No one believes the Minister.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We understand that among Ministers in the Cabinet, the Minister for Defence is probably one of the more competent performers. I ask him not to try to tell us that his affidavit-----
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----was some kind of misstatement. It was not. It was in fact a conscious action on his part-----
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to have the request for the injunction thrown out. We must bear in mind what was suggested by the Minister, Deputy Ryan, in his statement, although it is hard to hear a statement when the person making it has a big peg on his nose. From what I heard of the statement he read out at a gabble, he was suggesting that the fact that the settlement subsequently came before a judge was an indication that another court had somehow validated what the Minister had done. All the officers of the court opposite know that when a settlement goes before a judge, the judge receiving the settlement does not make any inquiries into affidavits or anything else; he or she is only concerned about receiving the settlement that was agreed between the parties.
The Green Party's fig leaf that the courts and a second judge somehow stood over what was done by the Minister is entirely invalid and misleading. If that is what the Green Party is relying on, Déirdre de Búrca really said it all when she left last week. Even at this late hour, the Green Party should give some further consideration to its position. It should do this for the sake of the children of Ireland, who will hear that these are the standards accepted in the House with the Green Party's stamp of approval. That is simply not good enough. This is dirty politics at its worst.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is what happened years ago in places such as New Hampshire.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is what the Americans used to call a particular type of politics which I will not name here.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time is expired.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In the United Kingdom, two senior politicians - Lord Archer and Jonathan Aitken - actually went to jail for perjury before a court. It was a different issue, but the point is none the less valid. In most jurisdictions an action of this kind by a serving senior Minister - in this case, one who has a responsibility, together with the President, for our Defence Forces - would be treated extremely seriously.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy O'Dea's time is up.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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His behaviour does, unfortunately, merit a vote of no confidence. It is shameful for the Green Party to support this action by the Minister, thereby saying to the children of Ireland that this type of behaviour is all right.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On behalf of the Sinn Féin Deputies, I oppose this motion of confidence in the Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea. We have no confidence in the Minister and no confidence in this Government.
Dogged by the controversy, the Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government has swiftly introduced its own motion of confidence in the Minister. It is a desperate effort to head off the issue and reduce the length of time the Green Party Deputies will have to spend in the bunker they are currently occupying.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has spent a bit of time in bunkers himself.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach and his Fianna Fáil and Green Party colleagues in Government have further shredded their already tattered credibility by fully backing the Minister. They are parroting his ludicrous and blatantly false defence that this was a personal matter between him as a private citizen and another private citizen of Limerick.
In the Dáil yesterday the Taoiseach repeated this when he said: "The Minister was acting in his private capacity, not in pursuance of his ministerial duties."
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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He is an actor all right.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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He went on to say:
... the Minister was acting in a private capacity. It was not in pursuance of his ministerial duties that this issue arose.
It is true that the Minister was acting. He was acting the maggot, as is his well-established inclination.
Let us take a look at the facts behind this story. They are, of course, totally different from the assertions made in the Taoiseach's vain attempt to dismiss the Minister's actions as something personal or unconnected to his political life and responsibilities. The Minister, who is a Deputy for Limerick East, was stung by a political charge from Mr. Maurice Quinlivan, then a Sinn Féin local government candidate, in the run-up to the June local and EU elections last year. The charge was that the Minister was wasting taxpayers' money by having at his disposal six civil servants to assist with his constituency work. This was a political - not a personal - charge. The charge was about the deployment of public money allocated to the Minister's office, and concerned the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, in his capacity as a Deputy and in his ministerial role.
The Minister chose to respond in a most scurrilous, despicable and personal way by falsely and outrageously linking Maurice Quinlivan to the operation of a brothel in Limerick city. The Minister is a political animal and has one of the highest personal votes in the country. That must be acknowledged. He knew very well what he was doing, even though his tongue often runs ahead of his brain. He was trying to prevent an electoral breakthrough by Sinn Féin and Maurice Quinlivan in Limerick City, which the Minister regards as his territory - his Fianna Fáil fiefdom.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, should realise this is no laughing matter.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Even if one were to accept the Minister's original affidavit to the High Court, which he admitted was false, the Minister would still have a serious case to answer because of his false allegations that were published in the Limerick Chronicle - not to mention the even more serious charges which were not published but which he did utter and which were recorded on tape. This was totally inappropriate conduct for any member of the Oireachtas, let alone a Cabinet Minister.
In his so-called personal explanation to the Dáil yesterday, the Minister maintained the charade that the matter was personal. He claimed: "The matter was a personal one between me and a Sinn Féin representative in Limerick." It was as if it was a row between business rivals or a falling out between neighbours. People should examine the Minister's comments last evening. In the same paragraph as that claim, the Minister contradicted himself when he said it was "born out of heated political exchanges". Therefore, the matter was clearly in the political domain.
The Minister, the Taoiseach and the rest are contradicted by the Minister's own mouth in his original affidavit to the High Court, which began:
"I am a sitting Teachta Dála for the constituency of Limerick East and I am also [a] Government Minister. I make this Affidavit from facts within my own knowledge."
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I did not know the Deputy recognised the courts.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister in his affidavit defended his allegation concerning the brothel. He asserted: "I say and believe that I was fully entitled to raise this issue in my capacity as an elected public representative to whom enquiries and concerns about the existence of this brothel had been expressed by a number of constituents."
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Was it by the Garda?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Let there be no pretence that this was a personal matter and that Deputy O'Dea was acting as anything other than a Deputy and a Minister. Everyone knows that he is the face of the Government in Limerick and the entire mid-west region.
Faced with this outrageous defamation, Maurice Quinlivan sought an injunction in the High Court to prevent the Minister from repeating his false statements. The Minister then swore the now infamous false affidavit. Mr. Justice Cooke in the High Court accepted the affidavit and, on the basis of the Minister's lie, refused the injunction application from Maurice Quinlivan. That decision was made on 20 April. From then until the local elections on 9 June and afterwards, Maurice Quinlivan had the Minister's false accusation hanging over him. Many believed that, since Maurice had lost the application for a High Court injunction, he had lost the action for defamation. Despite this, he succeeded in being elected to Limerick City Council for Sinn Féin, a testament to his and his party's hard work on behalf of the people of Limerick and a sign also that the Minister had no credibility among the electorate in attacking Maurice's character.
The Minister subsequently changed his story when the tape recording of his interview was revealed. However, the damage had been done during an election, as was clearly intended from the outset. It was only in December that Maurice succeeded in his defamation case. The Minister was forced to withdraw his comments and to apologise. He claimed in his personal explanation last evening that he corrected the mistake when he realised it. That is stretching credibility, since it took him four months to do so. I do not believe the Minister when he says that he forgot he made the defamatory remarks. Not a chance.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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There is a great deal Deputy à Caoláin says that I do not believe either.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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He has abused the democratic system and the courts and should resign. His continuing defence of the indefensible and the efforts of his Fianna Fáil and Green Party colleagues clearly underscore the fact that his position is untenable, as is that of the Government.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is hypocrisy of the highest order.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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What of social welfare fraud?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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These are the facts, but he is not happy facing them. Much has been made by the Minister and the Taoiseach of the terms of the settlement in the defamation action on 21 December as if they exonerate the Minister. They do no such thing. Clearly, Maurice Quinlivan accepted the legal advice he was given, having secured the vindication of his good name and the withdrawal by the Minister of the latter's false and defamatory statements. The matter of the false affidavit sworn to the High Court in the earlier injunction has not yet been considered by any court.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister must also answer to the people in his role as a public officeholder who is supposed to be a servant of the people and to uphold the highest standards in all matters. How can the people have confidence in a Cabinet Minister who has acted in this way? How can the people of Limerick have confidence in such a Minister who has also presided over record unemployment in the mid-west region and the virtual collapse of the long-promised Limerick regeneration? How can the people have confidence in a Government that, like yesterday, attempts to defend the indefensible? We certainly have no confidence in this Government and we want to see all of its members, including Deputy O'Dea, turfed out of office.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We may all need to wait for the Green Party, with respect to the Minister, Deputy Ryan, whose entrance into the Chamber was the most reluctant that I have witnessed in a long time. He skipped off quickly, but seems to have been sent back in again, by whom only goodness knows, as he needed to return to his seat.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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They called him back.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was not a bulb that went off in his head outside in the corridor. Someone told him to get back in there and to stick his ass back in his seat. That is what he has had to do.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe he was reluctant to watch someone get a punishment beating.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister swear any other affidavits?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We must wait until the Green Party Members are eventually smoked out of the political bunker in which they are hiding or until someone on the backbenches-----
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has bunkers on his brain. It is a Freudian slip.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----of Fianna Fáil finds a conscience and speaks out regarding this outrageous matter.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Will Deputy Ferris tell the Deputy that Sinn Féin closed the bunkers?
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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They have been filled in with concrete.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Otherwise, our unfortunate country will have much more to undergo if Fianna Fáil and the Green Party are allowed to continue to the bitter end of their term of office.
For the record, no length of time after a recent directive from the office of the Ceann Comhairle concerning appropriate language by Members of this House, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, was in direct contravention of same when he charged Deputy Kenny, the leader of the Fine Gael Party, with the word "guttersnipe".
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I could do worse to Deputy à Caoláin.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was one of the words that he was told was not acceptable.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, in your case, I could go much farther.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is absolutely typical of what the Minister will resort to.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not only Deputy O'Dea. The Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, can add himself to the whole mish mash this afternoon.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister can throw all the muck he likes.
Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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In the Deputy's case, I could throw much worse.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Minister, will you resume your seat, please?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is not at a cumann meeting now.
Martin FerrisMichael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, swear any further affidavits?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I will come to that in a minute. Last night, I stood before the House to refute the baseless, cynical and malicious allegations that have been made against me in recent days by Members of the parties opposite.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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No sooner had I reached the end of my statement than Deputy Kenny was on his feet declaring that Fine Gael would table a motion of no confidence in me.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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It is Fine Gael, not "fine" Gael.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is not writing for the Sunday Independent now.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael had decided this before it had heard a word of what I had to say.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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We are not "fine" Gael. We are Fine Gael.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, could we hear the Minister?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a classic example of the ready, aim, fire school of political tactics that has become Deputy Kenny's stock in trade.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Willie get your gun.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Kenny stated, Fine Gael's tabling of a motion of no confidence has nothing to do with what I said or did last April or December.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister swear any other affidavits that were false? Does he have any other court cases for which he wants to apologise.
5:00 pm
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The fact that my opposite number on the Fine Gael benches has not contributed to this debate would indicate to me that this has nothing to do with my work as the Minister for Defence.
Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Let us have silence otherwise we will not be able to hear the new lies.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Rather it has to do with Deputy Kenny's recent declaration to his parliamentary party in the aftermath of the George Lee debacle that "what I'm going to do now is be myself."
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister apologise for any other perjury?
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister ever find out who owns the brothel?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Am I entitled to make my statement; yes or no?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should not concern himself with Fine Gael.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputies Barrett and McGinley to restrain themselves.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Why does the Ceann Comhairle not tell the Members opposite to be orderly?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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There is one-way traffic on this.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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All I can say is that whoever advised Deputy Kenny to be himself could not have given him worse advice.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister was obviously seeing himself.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The proof of this is that the case was settled in the High Court on 21 December-----
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister write about that next Sunday?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----but it has taken until now - two months later - for Deputy Kenny to decide that this is a matter that, in his own words, he believes "goes to the very heart of the standards, judgment and ethics displayed at the top of this Government". It is not as if he could not have known about the case and my apology. It was widely reported in the media on 21 December and 22 December.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister give us a run down on that next Sunday?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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One of Deputy Kenny's Senators issued a statement on the day the case was finalised in court, yet Deputy Kenny did not regard it as going to the very heart of anything at that point. On 2 February Senator Regan raised the allegations in Seanad Ãireann but again Deputy Kenny did not regard it as going to the very heart of anything.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny reminds me of the famous quotation about Henry James - that he has a mind so fine that no idea could violate it.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister knows a lot about him.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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In Deputy Kenny's case, he has a brilliant mind until he makes it up.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is walking a fine line.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is that Henry James or Jesse James?
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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This motion is about the Minister.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He should stop digging; this is about the Minister and telling lies.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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What we are witnessing since the departure of the former Deputy George Lee back to a career in television is the opening performance of the new improved "Enda Kenny Show". It is more a sitcom than a documentary and like most sitcoms it is destined to be cancelled early in the season.
I do not expect any of the Deputies opposite in the Fine Gael Party-----
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister swear any other false affidavits in any other court cases?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Creed, please desist.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It would not be reasonable to expect them to vote confidence in me when they find it so hard to vote confidence in their own leader.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Minister swear any other false affidavits? He is in confession and he should tell us about all the other false affidavits?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Let me remind the House of the actual and verifiable facts that I placed on the record of the House last night. The settlement that was agreed before the High Court and which was finalised in proceedings of 21 December contained this key paragraph: "It is not suggested by Mr. Quinlivan that Mr. O'Dea acted other than innocently in making such denial and he accepts that there was no intention to mislead on the part of Mr. O'Dea."
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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That was after he got the money.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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He took the money and ran.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I have openly and fully acknowledged that my recollection of some of what I said in the interview with the journalist as described in my original affidavit was mistaken. I corrected the mistake on the day, not four months later. On the day I realised it, I corrected the mistake. I admitted the mistake and apologised for it.
I have never denied saying what was reported in the The Limerick Chronicle. I knew I had made the remarks reported in the newspaper but I honestly did not recollect going further. My genuine and honest mistake relates specifically to remarks - this is important - that were not published in the newspaper at all, which I honestly did not recall making.
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister lied to this House just as comfortably and he lied to the court. He is a disgrace.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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To put it in context, the remarks concerned an apartment owned by Brixton prison escapee Nessan Quinlivan - who shot his way out of Brixton prison-----
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What has that got to do with it?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----in the company of one of Jerry McCabe's murderers - which was being used as a brothel.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Were they not let out of jail early?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Nessan Quinlivan is a brother of councillor Maurice Quinlivan.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was it not the Minister who let them out of jail early?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can Members allow the Minister to speak without interruption?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The information I had at the time from good sources was that Mr. Maurice Quinlivan was involved as well.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister did a deal to get them out of jail early.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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That information was incorrect.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A secret deal was done to let them out of jail early.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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We do not want to hear any more of this rubbish.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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When I later saw a transcript of the interview in which I had, contrary to my recollection, gone further than what had been quoted in the newspaper-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This has nothing to do with the sworn affidavit, the false affidavit.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----and having seen the transcript, I took the initiative. I went to my solicitor and immediately corrected my affidavit. I was not forced or pressed to do this. I did so of my own volition as I then knew that my original affidavit was incorrect.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can the Minister be allowed continue without interruption?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am dealing with this. I was not, as Fine Gael has asserted, found out by the production of a tape recording of my interview. Its members have been insinuating that as if the interview had been recorded without my knowledge. I knew it was being recorded as there was a cassette recorder clearly in front of me.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Of course, the Minister did, that made it worse.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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He thought he would get away with it.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It is not the slightest bit credible that I would swear an incorrect-----
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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The Minister thought he would get away with it.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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------affidavit of a conversation that I knew had been taped when there was a tape in existence in the possession of a journalist. I ask this question of the media-----
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is fond of them himself.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----a minority of whom have been putting out comment masquerading as fact. There is a witness to the interview, namely, the journalist concerned. Why has he not been asked whether I knew the interview was being recorded? Has anybody bothered to ask the journalist who did the interview to see if a tape suddenly appeared or if I knew that the interview was being recorded?
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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The Minister is free to answer questions.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Durkan, allow the Minister to continue without interruption.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The facts do not suit.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am not answering any questions. I declared the error.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is afraid to answer questions.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It was not discovered or uncovered by anybody else. I saw my own mistake.
Liz McManus (Wicklow, Labour)
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Why did the Minister not talk to the journalists?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Am I going to be allowed to make my statement?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is afraid to answer questions.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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This is a motion of confidence in me. Will I be allowed make my statement without interruption?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I declared the error. It was not discovered or uncovered by anyone else. I saw my own mistake - I brought it to the attention of others. I admitted my error and I paid the price.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister did it his way.
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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He will pay the price all right.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Now Fine Gael wants me to pay a double price. It wants to remove me form office for openly admitting, owning up and remedying a mistake I made to the satisfaction of the aggrieved party.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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He will be removed from office for perjury.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He told lies regarding Longford barracks as well.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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If Fine Gael and Deputy Kenny's idea of standards, judgment and ethics is to punish those who admit honest mistakes, then that is one more reason many decent and law abiding people who should fear the prospect of Enda Kenny ever becoming Taoiseach.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There will not be a law abiding perjurer at that table.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Who is the Minister to talk?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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As I pointed out last night, evidence and testimony-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There will not be a perjurer at that table.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Cheann Comhairle-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes, I am doing the best I can.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Chair will need to get a tape recorded for the Minister.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is turning into the comedy club.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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As I pointed out last night, evidence and testimony is regularly corrected in courts without allegations and assertions of lying and perjury being levelled.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Imagine that this is going on the record of the House.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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People in all walks of life have been obliged to correct testimony whether in written and oral form. However, there is a principle that he who comes looking for justice should come with clean hands. How clean are Fine Gael's hands when it comes to owning up to its mistakes?
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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There is a dispenser outside the door.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Let us remember that this is the same Fine Gael party that deliberately suppressed a document from the Moriarty tribunal.
James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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This is a Minister who told lies to the people of Longford.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It is also the party that destroyed its own financial records. The information it failed to give to the Moriarty tribunal was about a $50,000 donation it received from the Norwegian telecommunications company, Telenor.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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What has that got to do with a brothel?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael's general secretary said that the party had decided not to report the donation to the Moriarty tribunal - and note the word "decided" -----
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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What about the Minister's former leader?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----because it would have been "politically disastrous", although he attempted afterwards to take back the words "politically disastrous".
Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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What a performance.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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He said that he feared that if the donation was revealed, a connection might be made between Fine Gael and the granting of a mobile telephone licence to Esat Digifone, about which we will discover an awful lot more shortly.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has lost it now.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The Fine Gael leader at the time of the donation, Mr. John Bruton, brushed the matter aside with the extraordinary excuse that he probably had not informed himself as fully as he should have about the matter. It is all right for him to make a mistake and at the time and since then Deputy Kenny------
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I request Members for the few minutes remaining to restrain themselves and not engage in silly behaviour.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It is called free speech. I know the Blueshirts do not have much of a concept of it but it is called free speech.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is using strong words now.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The Fine Gael Leader-----
Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I suppose we are running brothels as well, are we?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I see the Minister is wearing a blue shirt.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy believe in free speech?
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister believe in honesty?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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He might let me make my statement during the next few minutes. How he can call himself a democrat is beyond me.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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How can the Minister call himself a democrat with this rubbish?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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The then Fine Gael Leader, Mr. John Bruton, brushed the matter aside with the extraordinary excuse-----
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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------that he probably had not informed himself as fully as he should have. So he is entitled to make a mistake. He is entitled to suppress a document-----
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----on the basis that it might be politically disastrous to his party.
We accept that was a mistake. However, such omissions and errors are not the sole preserve of Fine Gael. It is not so long ago that Sinn Féin in the person of Deputy Arthur Morgan was denying that suspected paedophile, Liam Adams, was a member of the Sinn Féin Party in Louth-----
Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is misleading the House, I did not say that.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----dismissing his involvement as being "peripheral"-----
Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I said it was not in the office-----
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----and indeed continuing with this line until former members of the party started to produce photos and documentation showing that Liam Adams was anything but peripheral but-----
Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is again misleading the House in the same way as----
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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-----when this fact emerged into the public domain, Deputy Morgan's explanation was that he had a lapse of memory.
Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I checked the record and I put the record straight. The Minister should withdraw that comment.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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At the beginning of this debate the Taoiseach set out what we have achieved in the Department of Defence in recent years. He also set out the dearth of new ideas and new policies on defence coming from Fine Gael. I have a job to do as Minister for Defence.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I am committed to doing that work and will not be dissuaded from doing my job by politically motivated accusations from the parties opposite. I have spent almost 30 years of my adult life as a Deputy and have been proud of the work I have done for the people of Limerick. I am proud to have represented them in Dáil Ãireann.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister proud of what he has done in this case?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I value my good name and reputation.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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Whatever about our political differences, the people of Limerick respect my good name and reputation as an open and accessible public representative.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about some respect for the truth?
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not expect any praise from the benches opposite but I do not think it unreasonable to expect some level of propriety and fairness.
Willie O'Dea (Limerick East, Fianna Fail)
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It seems I am wrong to even expect that.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Here comes the praise.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is no round of applause today.
Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should keep his hair on.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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That concludes the contributions on the motion of confidence in the Minister for Defence. I am now obliged to put the question as it is approaching 5.15 p.m. Standing Order 71 provides that a list vote through the lobbies is the appropriate way of taking a vote of confidence in the Government and I consider that a vote of confidence in a Minister is of such import that I should exercise my discretion to have a full list vote on this item.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 80 (Bertie Ahern, Dermot Ahern, Noel Ahern, Barry Andrews, Chris Andrews, Seán Ardagh, Bobby Aylward, Joe Behan, Niall Blaney, Áine Brady, Cyprian Brady, Johnny Brady, John Browne, Thomas Byrne, Dara Calleary, Pat Carey, Niall Collins, Margaret Conlon, Seán Connick, Mary Coughlan, Brian Cowen, John Cregan, Ciarán Cuffe, Martin Cullen, John Curran, Noel Dempsey, Jimmy Devins, Timmy Dooley, Michael Finneran, Michael Fitzpatrick, Seán Fleming, Beverley Flynn, Paul Gogarty, John Gormley, Noel Grealish, Mary Hanafin, Mary Harney, Seán Haughey, Jackie Healy-Rae, Máire Hoctor, Billy Kelleher, Peter Kelly, Brendan Kenneally, Michael Kennedy, Tony Killeen, Michael Kitt, Tom Kitt, Brian Lenihan Jnr, Conor Lenihan, Tom McEllistrim, Mattie McGrath, Michael McGrath, John McGuinness, Martin Mansergh, Micheál Martin, John Moloney, Michael Moynihan, Michael Mulcahy, M J Nolan, Éamon Ó Cuív, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Darragh O'Brien, Charlie O'Connor, Willie O'Dea, John O'Donoghue, Noel O'Flynn, Rory O'Hanlon, Batt O'Keeffe, Ned O'Keeffe, Mary O'Rourke, Christy O'Sullivan, Seán Power, Dick Roche, Eamon Ryan, Eamon Scanlon, Brendan Smith, Noel Treacy, Mary Wallace, Mary White, Michael Woods)
Against the motion: 69 (Bernard Allen, James Bannon, Seán Barrett, Pat Breen, Tommy Broughan, Richard Bruton, Ulick Burke, Joan Burton, Catherine Byrne, Joe Carey, Deirdre Clune, Paul Connaughton, Noel Coonan, Joe Costello, Simon Coveney, Seymour Crawford, Michael Creed, Lucinda Creighton, Michael D'Arcy, John Deasy, Jimmy Deenihan, Andrew Doyle, Bernard Durkan, Damien English, Frank Feighan, Martin Ferris, Eamon Gilmore, Brian Hayes, Tom Hayes, Michael D Higgins, Phil Hogan, Brendan Howlin, Paul Kehoe, Enda Kenny, Ciarán Lynch, Kathleen Lynch, Pádraic McCormack, Shane McEntee, Dinny McGinley, Joe McHugh, Liz McManus, Olivia Mitchell, Arthur Morgan, Denis Naughten, Michael Noonan, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Kieran O'Donnell, Fergus O'Dowd, John O'Mahony, Brian O'Shea, Jan O'Sullivan, Willie Penrose, John Perry, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte, James Reilly, Michael Ring, Alan Shatter, Tom Sheahan, Seán Sherlock, Róisín Shortall, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton, Billy Timmins, Joanna Tuffy, Mary Upton, Leo Varadkar, Jack Wall)
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.
Question declared carried.