Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

He is being disingenuous. Ten days ago, before this controversy developed, I announced that we intended to amend the GSOC legislation and that I would bring proposals to Government in that regard. In its reports GSOC has indicated some issues it wishes addressed. That legislation will be brought to Government at some point during the course of this year and will come before the House. The second issue arising is that of access to the PULSE system. On Monday week last, I announced that there would be direct access by GSOC to the PULSE system, not only in the context of dealing with the ticket charge issue which has been referred to it but also for future investigations. That is very different to the approach taken by Deputy Collins's party when in government. I do not make these decisions on a precipitative basis. I made them having considered issues that have arisen during my term of office. Deputy Collins made reference to the chairman of GSOC being forced into an apology. I did not force the chairman of GSOC into anything. I read a newspaper report and I asked him if he would come to my Department to brief me on what occurred. One of the first things he did was to apologise to me that I had discovered this information in a newspaper and that I had not been briefed. I have listened to the dramatic persona of my former colleague, Deputy Lucinda Creighton, criticising the fact that mention was made that I should have been briefed. Other Members of this House have raised this issue. I am very puzzled. This information has appeared in a newspaper and I knew nothing about it. Had I not sought a briefing I would have been criticised by Members of this House because I am accountable to this House for these issues. Should I have been briefed?

We have had a debate that has lasted almost two hours on an issue which everyone acknowledges is of importance. Reference has been made to the administration of justice as important to the integrity and the public perspective of GSOC and also to the public perspective of An Garda Síochána. I could not think of an issue that is more important to be brought to the attention of the Minister for Justice and Equality under section 80(5) of the relevant legislation which states: "The Ombudsman Commission may make any other reports that it considers appropriate for drawing to the Minister’s attention matters that have come to its notice and that, in its opinion, should, because of their gravity or other exceptional circumstances, be the subject of a special report to the Minister." Have we just spent two hours debating something Members of this House do not believe are of gravity or give rise to exceptional circumstances?

If there was any reality to the possibility that someone targeted GSOC's offices and bugged them and if it had a worry about this, surely that is an issue to be brought to my attention. Surely that is an issue the Minister of the day should be informed about. Indeed, I think in retrospect it acknowledges that information should have been given. It is no more dramatic than that but I would have expected, either during the course of the investigation or when it concluded the investigation on the basis that there was no purpose in continuing with it because nothing was coming out of it, I would have been informed and would not have read about in the Sunday newspapers. I think that is reasonable because Members of this House expect me to report to this House. There is very substantial reform under way. There is no bad blood between me and GSOC. There is a narrative people want to develop here but it was reasonable to comment that I would have expected to have been informed of these particular issues.

We need to keep all of this in context. We have heard mention of there being a crisis. What I am concerned about is to ensure there is no doubt in the public mind as to the integrity of the approaches by GSOC in the context of its offices, the privacy and confidentiality of information and that there are systems in place to guarantee that information cannot be wrongly accessed. Listening to some of the contributions in the House this evening, it is as if the initial statements were neither made by me nor GSOC but the plain truth of it is that there is no definitive indication at all, despite GSOC's own investigation, that anything was compromised. I am relying on the information GSOC has given me. I have no other means to report to the House. This is what I have been told by GSOC. It has made a public statement. I spent two hours with Mr. Simon O'Brien seeking as much information as possible to be in a position to inform the House and to try to be satisfied that GSOC was in a position to conduct its business confidentially and appropriately under statute and in the public interest. If I did not engage in that way, I would not be doing my duty.

I have no beef with GSOC. I think it is regrettable this matter emerged in the manner in which it did. Deputies have correctly referenced that it has cast a shadow over An Garda Síochána in circumstances in which it seems to be entirely unfair because there is no evidence, there are no facts or there is no material available to indicate that An Garda Síochána had any hand or part in any of this. GSOC has investigated it and has reached conclusions.

What is it that is to be the subject of an inquiry? It gets a headline and a little bit of drama from Deputy Ross and others but apparently there is nothing to be inquired into. Deputy Mac Lochlainn and I disagree about some things and agree about others but I very much welcome the fact GSOC will appear before the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions tomorrow and that there will be opportunity for any questions that need to be asked to be asked. If some additional information becomes available, of which I am unaware and that casts further light on this, I will welcome it. That is right and it is why we have a Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions so that a group like GSOC or the ombudsman can come into that committee in a transparent way and address issues that arise and are of concern, and this, of course, is an issue of concern.

GSOC may have had concerns about vulnerabilities in its offices but I have not been informed of anything to indicate anything was compromised, any conversations were overheard, any files were accessed or any data were in any way interfered with. If it was different, I would tell the House and it would be appropriate that I do so.

Deputy Daly said something of some interest. There has been a lot of toing and froing on the ticket charge issue on which I will not comment anymore because arising out of the further developments, it is now with GSOC and I hope it fully investigates it and that its investigation brings a degree of closure to this once and for all. However, Deputy Daly wants different standards in different areas. She talked about investigating sources in An Garda Síochána breaking stories to the media. She wants some people investigated but not others. I do not want to get into the ticket charge issue but the information that appeared in the media arose out of a leak from a member of the Garda Síochána. He may be right but GSOC will deal with it all. I am not entering into it. However, it appears that some things that appear in the media are acceptable but others are not.

I am very curious about this other matter that is floating around which Deputy Wallace raised last Thursday after I had left the House following Question Time. He could have raised when I was in the House and I would have thought more of Deputy Martin in terms of the manner in which he raised it. There is a reference to some transcript to which I am not privy. I do not know anything about the meeting which took place nor do I know how the transcript was created. I do not know whether it was an agreed transcript of a conversation which allegedly took place between the confidential recipient and Sergeant McCabe. I do not know selectively what is being quoted from it. All I can say to Deputies is that there is no question in any circumstances of me threatening anyone or authorising anyone to threaten anyone and the suggestion is absolutely outrageous. However, I understand this is something Deputies Wallace and Daly have been trying to peddle for the best part of two years. I have never been privy to the information or documentation - the detailed transcript which apparently they have. Indeed, the confidential recipient is supposed to be operating on a confidential basis. It is not appropriate that I start to access private conversations which allegedly took place between a confidential recipient and a member of the Garda Síochána but I would make it absolutely clear that no one would have my approval or imprimatur, whether a confidential recipient or any one else, to issue any threat to any individual who, in good faith, was reporting on any issue. It is outrageous that Deputy Wallace should suggest that.

Unfortunately, from the Opposition side, there has been more heat than light in addressing this matter. I hope some additional light will be shone on it at the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions tomorrow. My objective is that matters cool down in the sense that if there are now difficulties in the relationship between An Garda Síochána and the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission that they are resolved. They were resolved last summer. I listened to one person suggest that they continued into September or October. They were resolved and protocols were entered into and relationships, as I understood them, were now on good terms with both bodies dealing, as they must do independently, with issues of concern that arise. I will do my best to ensure that relationships are restored. I hope in so far as there is any remaining ambiguity about this particular matter that it is fully cleared up at the committee hearing tomorrow.

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