John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)

Any business person would admit that other world issues had an impact. I accept we in this country managed badly and did not respond to issues when we should have in 2008. Fine Gael is now in government with a huge mandate and I wish them well, but they must take the necessary decisions and not postpone them. They must not put them off for another day and must not cloud the issue by presenting poorly worked out legislation such as this.

That said, I would like to address the reform issues included in the Bill. Reform is not about reducing numbers from 18,000 or 20,000. That is reform in terms of numbers. The reform required in the public service and Civil Service is about culture change, a change of management and a change of attitude towards a job that is being undertaken. Reform is not necessarily about those on the front line, because they deliver every day by the sweat of their brow and under serious pressure. It is about delivery in terms of management of the public service and Civil Service. It is about the 2,000 to 6,000 extra people we are told are in the HSE. It is not so much about getting rid of them, but about reducing the numbers of middle and senior managers who take significant money out of the system.

I said previously that the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, took a reduction in his salary, as did the rest of the Ministers. That was a reasonable decision to make, but the bigger and harder decision is to turn to the Secretaries General and tell them that their salaries need to be reduced to a level below €200,000. That is a fact. As Fianna Fáil leaves office and Fine Gael comes into office, it is faced with the same set of bureaucrats and civil servants at that level who assisted the Government, as put in Deputy Barry's terms, to affect negatively the growth and development of the economy. They are still in place. Should they not be reshuffled also? Should they not take a reduction in their salaries? I believe they should and the Government should have the ability, perhaps under this ministry, to reshuffle those square pegs that are in round holes. They should not be removed, because that is not compassionate or good management, but should be put where they fit best elsewhere.

The Government must also bring in measures of payment for lower paid civil servants that will recognise their worth. It must create a culture, value and enterprise system within the Civil Service that will lead to a seamless transfer from the public sector to the private sector or from the private sector into the public sector. We can count on one hand the number of people from the private sector who over the past few years went for jobs in the public sector but failed to get in. That is the challenge that faces the Government.

It is as much a challenge as that put by the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, when he said we should eliminate all the quangos. When quangos are eliminated those who are on the boards disappear, which is maybe what should happen, but those employed simply go back to the parent Department. That is where they are. Therefore, there are no savings in doing that. There are no savings unless the Government asks those serving on the boards, whom it will appoint, to do it for nothing in the interest of the country. What is wrong with asking them to do it for free? Is that not reform? Get rid of the quangos and put them into a single quango. Let them administer a number. There are many examples of how management in the private sector can be applied to the public sector and of where it will work. It comes down to a culture change and an acceptance, within the Croke Park deal or outside of it, that things must change.

How much has changed since the Croke Park deal? I would say very little, but I do not want to say that without having the information on it. Therefore, I will ask some parliamentary questions in that regard. However, when one will ask each Department what has been achieved, whether it has met its targets, how and where, and the numbers and savings involved, it will reply that it cannot answer the question and will refer it to the Department of Finance. As Deputy Stagg continually repeated when in Opposition, Members should be respected and when they ask a parliamentary question, they deserve a full, comprehensive and honest answer, with nothing taken from it. Then the Member can act on the response if he or she so wishes. However, that does not happen. Currently, when one puts questions on this issue to Ministers, who had so much to say when in Opposition, those questions are then referred to Deputy Howlin. He must be the one who will be the bad news Minister for the Government. I ask for change in that regard.

It is easy to have reform, without the Bill or the Minister, although I am happy to support the Minister with stronger legislation. To have reform, just ask officials to answer their phones. Ask them to answer their letters and to have respect for the Members of this House. Ask the HSE to deal constructively with the carers we saw in that programme this week on television. Just ask them to respond to it. Ask them to go out publicly and tell their story. Ask for the issues that are presented at the Committee of Public Accounts to be addressed substantially so we do not have the overspend going on and on, regardless of who is in Government. I am not being political on this, but am putting this forward in the interest of Ireland and of getting it right. What gets counted gets done. If we achieve that, we will achieve value for money and will give those in the public service and Civil Service the opportunity to get promotion based on their ability rather than on their longevity or time in the system.

These are some of the few things, in terms of reform, the Government could do that would make a huge difference to the ordinary citizens who elected us to this House and gave the Government an overwhelming majority. The challenge for that overwhelming majority is not to ignore democracy. There is an Opposition, regardless of what the Government thinks of us. We deserve that right, just as the Government did in its time in opposition but we did not give it to it. Do not prolong that approach to politics, because we now have a new politics and new approach to business. It is a new approach to public sector management that will take us out of this.

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