Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

-----I am saying he is attacking the public service.

I want to highlight some points in the Minister's script. I understand where the people in the Department of Finance, who wrote this script, are coming from. They use the phrase that we must all make better use our resources and draw more effectively on the potential that exists for improving and sharing public information. That is a worthwhile objective with which many of us agree but as the Minister is aware, public information can only be shared between public bodies if the Data Protection Act is amended substantially. The Minister is aware that housing officers do not have access to social welfare records, and the Health Service Executive does not share records for means tests with local authorities, whether it is for education grants or whatever. While there needs to be improvement in that area, the Minister can only do that with a significant change to the Data Protection Act.

The Minister stated also that there is an acceptance that we cannot afford the same level of services and that there will be further cuts. The Minister might explain before the legislation is passed where the cuts to which he is referring will be made.

The Minister went on to refer to the Croke Park agreement and stated the framework for how this challenging agenda can be delivered on is provided by it. I am delighted to see the Minister has been converted to the Croke Park agreement. When that agreement was being negotiated at length involving the public service, the staff representatives and the Government his colleagues in the Labour Party were mute on the issue. I am delighted to see the Minister's full conversion to what was a skilfully negotiated agreement. As he stated in his contribution, it is clear the agreement can serve as an effective enabler of economic recovery. We have been saying that for the past 12 months but the Minister never accepted it but now that the Department of Finance officials are writing his script I am delighted to see he is accepting it.

The Minister stated also that the report being produced by P.J. Fitzpatrick will be considered by the Government and published shortly. I welcome that. The Minister might confirm when concluding the debate - I do not believe it is mentioned in his script - that the report will be discussed in the Dáil. Will we get the report in the Dáil as published or will the Minister do a "Minister Bruton" on it in that he will receive it and then give his own version of it which will have a different perspective? I would like to get the report directly as published rather than the Department's interpretation of it.

The Minister went on to refer to the question of numbers in the public service. Everything I am saying are direct quotes from the Minister's script. He acknowledged that 16,400 people have left the service since the end of 2008, that between 18,000 and 21,000 will leave by 2014, with a further 4,000 leaving by 2015. That is 41,400 public servants the Minister says will leave the public service as a result of this measure. That is an exceptionally high figure. I recall during the election campaign both Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party had agreed that the combined total of people due to leave the public service from the start of this process would be in the order of 28,000. Now that Labour has signed up to the Fine Gael policy we are hearing a figure of 41,000. The Minister might provide some clarity on that because I felt the Minister's approach during the election campaign in terms of 28,000 was reasonable as it was approximately 10% of public servants but if the figure is increasing to over 40,000 out of the 300,000 he is pushing up the number of people who will be leaving the service and those who have already left the service. I am disappointed that the numbers are increasing to that extent.

The Minister also acknowledged that we had tremendous growth in the economy last year, and I appreciate his comments regarding the way the economy was managed last year on that issue.

In the final paragraph before the conclusion the Minister states there will be amendments to the Bill to deal mainly with the policy role of the Minister for public expenditure and reform and with the payment role of the Minister for Finance in regard to certain functions. It is clear now we have two Ministers with a finger in the pie on an issue. Every Deputy in this House is aware that if one goes to a local authority or the National Roads Authority, NRA, about a particular job it is doing it will say it came from the Department. We are now talking about enlarging the circle where blame can be shifted in the public service in that if there is a problem with the NRA it will blame the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. The Department of Finance which decided on the allocation will blame the new Department of public expenditure and reform for setting the policy.

In terms of getting something done through any of the State bodies, the circle is getting larger, there is less accountability and responsibility is being diffused. The Department of Finance will write the cheque, the Department of public expenditure will set the policy, the line Department will have a direct hands-on approach and then the relevant State body in the Department such as the NRA or some other body will do the implementation. That is a recipe to ensure that everybody is accountable but nobody is accountable. I would like that matter to be reassessed because the emphasis in the Bill is on improved co-ordination and efficiency. The Minister is adding a new layer of bureaucracy. He is adamant in his speech that there will now be a separate role for him regarding policy and that the payment will come from the Department of Finance. In that regard I have explained the way the circle is getting bigger with responsibility being diffused.

The most significant parts of the Bill are the Schedules on pages 19 to 23 which beg the question what power the new Minister will have. I would like to believe he will have significant power. The Minister's script refers to every section, very thoroughly in regard to Part 4, but the Minister referred to the Schedules in a skimpy manner.

There is a large table in Schedule 2, Part 1, which is headed: "Functions performable [by the Minister] with consent of Minister for Finance". The Minister, Deputy Howlin, will have no ability to perform those functions, if he chooses, unless he does it with the express written consent of the Minister for Finance. There are dozens of functions listed including the Inland Fisheries Act 2010, the Broadcasting Act 2009, the Charities Act 2009, the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, the Electricity Regulation (Amendment) (EirGrid) Act 2008, the Medical Practitioners Act 2007, the Pharmacy Act 2007, the Consumer Protection Act 2007, the National Oil Reserves Agency Act 2007, the National Sports Campus Development Authority Act 2006 and the Road Safety Authority Act 2006. The list covers three pages, all of which are functions the Minister will not be able to perform unless he receives the consent of the Minister.

Schedule 3 deals with functions the Minister for Finance will retain. It states the Minister for Finance can exercise these powers at the request of the Minister, Deputy Howlin. In other words, the Minister, Deputy Howlin, might want to do the job but he must ask the Minister for Finance to do it. It covers the Courts (Supplemental Provisions) (Amendment) Act 1999, the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Act 1938 and other issues such as that. There is another full page of those which again the Minister has no authority to implement if he believes it is necessary. All he can do is ask the Minister for Finance to do it and that raises the question: in regard to what legislation does the Minister, Deputy Howlin, have power he can exercise?

There are three items of legislation in Part 2 of Schedule 2. They are section 10 of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010, section 7 of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act 2009, and section 13 of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009. There are three sections of three different Acts for which the Minister will have "Functions performable [by the Minister, Deputy Howlin] after consultation with Minister for Finance". Regarding three small sections of three Acts out of a list of over 100 Acts listed in all the Schedules, the ones he can perform can only be done after he has consulted with the Minister for Finance. The Department of Finance seems to have won that battle in recent months and it has neutered this Department before it even gets off the ground.

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