Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I welcome, from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science: Mr. William Beausang, assistant secretary, and Ms Karolina Murphy, assistant principal; and from SOLAS: Mr. Andrew Brownlee, chief executive officer, and Ms Maria Walshe, director of branding, communications and strategy implementation. The European Commission in Ireland was invited but could not attend due to conflicting business. It made a written submission which was circulated to members and will be put on the Oireachtas website following today's meeting. Mr. Beausang and Mr. Brownlee will each make an opening statement of five minutes and this will be followed by questions from members, who have six minutes each.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The officials are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by the Chair to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite Mr. Beausang to make his opening statement, to be followed by Mr. Brownlee.

Mr. William Beausang:

I am head of further education and training, apprenticeship and skills policy, as well as tertiary education policy, at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Karolina Murphy, who is the AP in the skills unit. We are grateful to the committee for the invitation to attend today's meeting to discuss the European Year of Skills.

The announcement of the European Year of Skills 2023 was a very welcome development for us at EU level. The main themes underlined by the European Year of Skills are very complementary to our objectives and priorities for national skills policy as reflected in the role and mandate of the Department of Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

In broad terms, our overall approach to skills policy is to ensure that all different dimensions of the tertiary system, that is, further education and training, FET, higher education and our national research and innovation system, work together to respond to our skill and workforce development needs for a world of work that has been transformed by technology.

This is crucial to ensuring that each individual in our communities is provided with the opportunity to realise their potential. It is also crucial to the quality and sustainability of employment and to the productivity, innovative capacity and competitiveness of industry and enterprise. It is clearly crucial to securing economic, social and environmental sustainability and to strengthen the performance of Ireland's knowledge economy and economic model.

I would like to highlight how well in advance of the announcement of the European Year of Skills 2023 in November 2021 in the Department of Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science we commenced the work in partnership with the OECD, to review our national skills strategy to 2025, which strategy had been in place since 2016.

That piece of work has been instrumental in refining and in enhancing our skills priorities that were in the strategy. The OECD work did not just look at the issues facing skills policy through the lens of its own expertise and the extensive data and analysis it would have internationally. Its findings and recommendations can be very much characterised as a co-designed piece of work as it featured a very high level of engagement with all of the stakeholders, including, of course, enterprise and the social partners.

That is very much in line with the partnership approach to skills policy nationally which we know is key to both successfully addressing the shared challenges and leveraging the opportunities presented by the skills landscape. Of course, it is one of the central planks of the EU's year of skills, as the committee will know from the statement received from the European Commission.

The insights and perspectives of our national stakeholders, as I said, strongly shaped the main themes of the OECD review and its analysis strongly reinforced the assessment that Ireland's human capital, embodied in the skills and competitiveness of its workforce, has been at the heart of Ireland's economic and social transformation over the past number of decades.

However, notwithstanding the huge progress in educational attainment, we are certainly not at the end of this journey and our ambition must be to create a learning society in which all citizens have the opportunity to participate. That is critical to our capacity to respond to what the OECD characterised as the megatrends, which other people regard as the megathreats, which are the four Ds which were framed in last year's national economic dialogue, of: digitalisation and artificial intelligence, AI; decarbonisation; population ageing and demographics; and de-globalisation. The working world has been shaped by the impact of these developments and a striking finding of the OECD review is that despite the strong positives of increased educational attainment and progress in developing foundational skills in our young people, many adults do not have the skills to succeed in an increasingly complex and interconnected world. The overriding conclusion from the review is that the scale and pace of change globally is such that Ireland's skill's ecosystem is now required to take a leap forward.

At the same time, the OECD review identifies how we can respond to this challenge by securing a step change in lifetime learning, where we lag behind top EU performers. The review has a detailed and comprehensive set of 24 recommendations relating to each of the four themes of the OECD review of how this can be achieved.

We look forward to discussing these recommendations and the opportunity they present with the committee this morning. Today, I believe, is the closing day where the event closing the European Year of Skills is taking place in Brussels but our work and commitment in Ireland to the national skills agenda continues and will need to intensify to be successful because it is central to the delivery of the mandate of the Department and pivotal to the delivery of key Government strategies, namely, Housing for All, the Climate Action Plan 2023, the National Digital Strategy for Ireland, and the national development plan, NDP. I am again grateful for the opportunity to meet the committee to discuss these issues further and I look forward to responding to the questions the committee may have.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Beausang has finished his presentation bang on time. The pressure is now on Mr. Brownlee.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

On behalf of SOLAS, I would like to thank the Chair and the joint committee members for the opportunity to speak with them today about progress achieved during European Year of Skills 2023.

As the State agency responsible for further education and training, FET, in Ireland, SOLAS's vision is to power the potential of individuals, communities and enterprise through lifelong learning and workforce transformation. Working with 16 education and training boards across the country, FET provision is available in every community in Ireland and offers every individual, regardless of any previous level of education, a pathway to take them as far as he or she wants to go. This is very much in keeping with the ambition of the European Year of Skills to grow lifelong learning, empower people and companies to contribute to the green and digital transitions and support reskilling, innovation and competitiveness.

SOLAS is leading an ambitious national FET strategy in driving significant transformation across the FET system. ETBs are successfully delivering on agreed national FET system targets, which focus on areas including widening participation, progress within FET and on to higher education and ensuring higher certification rates for transversal skills and key skills needs. This ensures that learning undertaken has a currency and relevance for industry and beyond.

During the European Year of Skills 2023, the FET sector has experienced unprecedented growth and demand, with a learner base growing by some 17% in just 12 months from 2022. One in ten adults in Ireland, that is, approximately 423,000 people, were engaged in apprenticeships, constructions skills schemes or other FET activities last year. These figures give us a strong indication that FET is delivering not only for individuals but also for communities and societies and is achieving its ambition of becoming a major driver of both economic development and social cohesion. Some of the key developments during 2023 included well over 60,000 undertaking a FET QQI level 5 or level 6 course that provides practical work-ready skills or a pathway into higher education. A greater proportion of school leavers are now choosing FET and apprenticeships. We are delivering TY modules to give tasters of vocational and technical training and there is also a range of new tertiary programmes available where learners can begin degrees in ETBs and complete them in a higher education institution.

Skills to Advance provides upskilling and reskilling opportunities in FET to employees in jobs undergoing change and to those currently involved in vulnerable sectors. Key to Success is a close collaboration with small and medium-sized enterprises to help employers identify skills needs and invest in their workforce by providing free or heavily subsidised education and training to staff. Over 23,500 employees upskilled via Skills to Advance in 2023, which is an increase of 40% since the year before with FET becoming a key resource for enterprise. The year 2023 also saw the development of new FET micro-qualifications. This is a new FET offering to future-proof businesses. Programmes comprising of short, stackable, accredited qualifications are tailored to fit employees work schedules and are provided at little to no cost to employers. New micro-qualifications were launched in areas as diverse as sustainability, digital, robotics, aquaculture, business innovation and market development.

The national online learning service for the FET sector, funded by SOLAS, is called eCollege. It provides a wealth of free online courses including computer programming, data science, office productivity and web and graphic design. Green skills also are now part of its portfolio. Participation on eCollege courses during 2023 grew by approximately 20% to more than 25,000, bringing them gradually up to the levels of mass demand seen during Covid-19 when we opened up the resource to everyone.

On green skills, SOLAS and the ETBs are endeavouring to ensure that every FET learner has access to the understanding of sustainability issues that allows him or her to serve as the agents of change on climate action. In 2023, more than 15,500 people undertook a green skills module as part of their FET learning experience.

Construction is a key enabler of climate action and almost 5,000 were trained through NZEB and retrofitting techniques in 2023, through our networks of centres of excellence. A new modern methods of construction demonstration park is in development at the Mount Lucas national construction campus. We also launched an online safe pass system in early 2023 to facilitate updating of essential construction skills.

While we have made significant progress in the FET sector during the EU Year of Skills, the recent OECD review of Ireland’s skills strategy showed the need for a more balanced skills system and a stronger focus on lifelong learning participation. If we are to keep pace with other leading EU countries, lifelong learning is key to leveraging the opportunities and challenges of an ever-changing world of work. We want FET to become the go-to place for upskilling and reskilling throughout lifetimes and careers.

We are in the final year of the current FET strategy, transforming learning. This will be a central theme in the new strategy for 2025-2029, which is currently in development. We would welcome the views and input of the committee as we shape the strategy over the remainder of the year. SOLAS believes FET is uniquely placed to respond to the critical skills needed in Ireland and will play an important part in the development of the future talent that will be needed to meet national strategic objectives on digitisation, decarbonisation and demographic change.

I hope this provided the committee with an overview of how SOLAS is currently progressing this and the steps forward made during the European Year of Skills 2024. I thank the committee members for their time today and look forward to further discussion on the matter.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Brownlee. We will now hear from Deputy Mairéad Farrell, followed by Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Go raibh maith agaibh as teacht os comhair an choiste. I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and their opening statements. They were very interesting and it is very much appreciated.

I will start with the Department first. I have an interest in local authorities and their use of apprentices and that kind of thing, especially given the really bad situation we have with some of the social housing stock standards. We have really bad issues with mould and broken things, such as windows and doors and that kind of thing has a huge impact on people's lives. Equally, we also have a big issue with footpaths, which sounds very basic but it is fundamental if people, especially elderly people, want to walk to the shop or that kind of thing.

About four weeks ago, I wrote to all 31 local authorities to ask how many apprentices they currently have. This included both craft and consortia apprenticeships. The answers have been slow coming back. To be fair, I do know local authorities are extremely busy and they lost a lot of staff during the crisis and all that. Only three local authorities have come back to me with craft apprenticeships. I identified only eight apprentices among them. There are four in vehicle mechanics and four in construction plant fitting. I was not surprised because Galway City Council and Galway County Council are in my constituency and I deal with them. It is disappointing in a sense and maybe it is something we need to look at because they are not doing carpentry apprenticeships, electrical, plumbing, bricklaying or anything like that. We could do so much more and so much better and it is something we could look at because it would be a really good way to go, both for people who want to get that training - no matter where they are in the country - but also for the housing stock we have. It seems like a no-brainer to do that.

The European Commission just produced a report which deals with things such as job guarantees, apprenticeship guarantees and that kind of thing. It is something I have an interest in. Are there any plans in relation to the roll-out of more apprenticeships within our local authorities to deal with the issues we have to deal with regarding the housing stock and its turnaround times? Has the Department looked at the apprenticeship guarantee the European Commission published?

Mr. William Beausang:

I thank the Deputy for her question. It speaks directly to the action plan for apprenticeship and the public service apprenticeship plan. The Deputy mentioned she has only got a limited number of replies. I do not have the data to hand, but if the Deputy receives all the replies, it will show a very low level of apprenticeship in the public service. That is very disappointing from a Government perspective because the Government wants the public service to show leadership on apprenticeship. In promoting apprenticeship as a mainstream option and in the way Government wishes to do so, it does not look aligned if the public service is not employing many apprentices.

There is a target in the public service apprenticeship plan of 750 apprenticeship registrations a year, starting next year. That is a target that will be challenging for us to achieve from the base we are starting from. The Deputy mentioned the local authorities in particular, which is a really good example. It relates to other areas and another Department's area of responsibilities but that model has changed. The model of direct provision of those apprenticeships of what qualified tradesmen do has changed. As the Deputy will know, a lot of those services are contracted out, which means the level of employment in the local authorities is not high.

Dublin and Cork might be outliers, but it still not very high even in those local authorities. Arising from an engagement with ICTU officials who said that we have to start somewhere, they recommended that, as part of the apprenticeship plan, there would be a commitment or an action that each local authority hire five apprentices. That is in the plan. Through the structures that have been put in place-----

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Is that craft or-----

Mr. William Beausang:

It is craft. I have to think about that. I think it is craft.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. Beausang confirm that? I see people suffering because their houses are not up to standard and I see empty boarded-up houses, and those are the kinds of things that need to be turned around and that is what we need to look at. At the same time, it would be powerful to give young people opportunities in their local authorities and areas in which they can see the work they are doing is helping their communities.

Mr. William Beausang:

The Department of public expenditure and reform is our partner on the implementation of the plan, which is positive. When engaging with the local government sector, as we have through the Local Government Management Agency in particular, there are many administrative issues that seem to act as a constraint in respect of issues such as headcount and funding. Just to be clear, as part of the work of the leadership group, we are committed to working through those issues. There is a Government target in overall terms but in particular in respect of recruitment in local authorities, and we are committed to delivering on that target. Does Mr. Brownlee have anything to add?

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of my time and I am worried the Chair will stop me.

Mr. William Beausang:

I apologise. Regarding the guarantee, we have a 10,000 target. It is an employer-led-----

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Beausang expect to hit that 10,000 target? The 2020 target was 9,000 and we are not hitting that yet. Does he think we will hit the 2020 target?

Mr. William Beausang:

We have held that we expect to hit the target but, as it is an employer demand-led model, it depends on whether employers recruit an apprentice or not.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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At the same time, we are looking at the local authorities and that-----

Mr. William Beausang:

That will certainly help.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I understand what happened in 2020 but if we are not hitting the 2020 target of 9,000 now, I do not see the benefit of us talking about another target we might not hit either. That is my concern.

Mr. William Beausang:

I do not wish to branch off too much but we know from the requirements around meeting housing targets and what might change with regard to housing targets that we will have to continue to build the pipeline of apprentices.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely. May I ask another question?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes, briefly.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for SOLAS. Mr. Brownlee will be aware of backlogs and so on.. We have had discussions on the matter and tabled parliamentary questions on it. Last week, I got a response to a parliamentary question in which I was trying to establish how long it takes for an apprenticeship to finish. All going according to plan, it should take four years. There are backlogs, however. I have been contacted by hundreds of apprentices about this. The response I got shocked me. Of those who qualified in 2023, 61% of electricians took five years to complete the course, with 14% taking six years or more; 37% of carpenters took five years, with 11% taking six years or more; and, amazingly, 70% of plumbers took five years, with 14% taking six years or more. I understand some people may have to repeat exams or may have a health issue that stops them from completing in a four-year period but I cannot imagine that it is just those instances that account for that. Can Mr. Brownlee advise how SOLAS is dealing with and addressing this?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

The Deputy is right; those statistics are stark and unacceptable. They are in the context of our training facilities, in effect, being closed for the guts of the pandemic. I think off-the-job training facilities were closed for nine out of the first 12 months and they were operating at significantly reduced capacity throughout 2020 and 2021. Therefore, that would play into the figures of people who qualified in 20203. We also have a significant backlog challenge primarily caused by Covid. At its peak, we had 8,253 waiting more than six months to access off-the-job apprenticeship training. At the end of November last year, that had fallen to 5,500, but it has proven very stubborn to get further below that figure.

Essentially, because of the success in people wanting to do apprenticeships, we were registering people effectively as fast as we could as we could train them. That prompted the development of a kind of a craft emergency backlog plan and that is really throwing everything at it to eliminate the need for anyone to be in the circumstances the Deputy has been contacted about once and for all and to move towards elimination by the end of this year.

The emergency backlog plan involves things like asking our instructors to deliver three intakes per year instead of two intakes. It is about setting up new craft apprenticeship workshop facilities and putting enhanced cover instructor arrangements in place because if three intakes instead of two are being delivered, cover arrangements are needed so that people can deliver. Between the typical courses-----

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I just-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to Deputy Farrell. I call Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh, who will be followed by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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My first question will build on Deputy Farrell's question a bit. I have seen it reported in the media that 3,376 people who engaged in craft apprenticeships failed to finish courses between 2021 and 2023. Is that figure is correct? Are we researching why people are dropping out of these craft apprenticeships? Are we doing anything in terms of retention measures?

On lifelong learning rates, we are nominally chasing the likes of Sweden. I have old figures from 2018 where its rate was up at approximately 30%. We were at approximately 12.5%, although I know some progress has been made in this regard. Are we analysing the types of courses it is offering in achieving that type of lifelong learning rate? As I read Mr. Beausang's opening statement, I had a concern. I saw a lot of talk about skills that are useful within the marketplace but little discussion about lifelong learning skills that are based around personal development. I do not think it is a zero-sum game. We can allow people to engage in personal development. Like the argument we had around pure research versus applied research when we were looking at Taighde Éireann, we do not always know what skills are going to be useful in the long term. Has the Department undertaken any type of analysis on the type of course breakdown that we see in those successful countries, like Sweden? I have a suspicion that might be a language course, crocheting or whatever. It could be anything at all, but I wish to see people coming through the doors.

Mr. Brownlee talked about unprecedented growth. This is a bit like my apprenticeship question, but wider. What are the retention rates in terms of people who engage in further education and training? People are signing up but I know from my own life that people sign up for a German course, cannot quite make it to the lessons, never quite do the qualification and never move on to the next course. What is our retention rate within courses? How many people are getting to the end and getting their qualifications? Crucially, how many people are progressing on to the next thing? Those questions apply to the microcredentials as well. That is a really exciting space but they are stackable and we want people to stack them.

I have a bunch of other question but that will probably do for the moment.

Mr. William Beausang:

I will start with the Deputy's question on lifelong learning. I absolutely share his assessment. As we look at the transformation that is happening, it is a transformation of society and while the economy is a part of society, it is not all of society. If one looks at something like digital skills and the work done under the national digital strategy and the follow-on from that, focusing in particular on the risk of digital exclusion and not being able to participate fully in society on account of a deficit in digital skills, I agree with the Deputy that we need to adopt a holistic approach to looking at the skills. The Deputy is right; we cannot predict the skills required for the future precisely. However, we know what would make the difference, particularly when looking at the impact of automation and artificial intelligence, that is, human skills will be important, including critical thinking, teamwork, communication and collaboration. Those skills can be developed regardless of the technical or specific skills or programme that one is undertaking.

In looking at our lifelong learning performance, we are just above average by EU standards, but as the Deputy said, we are falling well behind the Scandinavian economies.

The challenge for us - and the phrase we sometimes use - is creating a learning society. There is a whole range of factors. The OECD research looked at the performance of the Scandinavian economies and lifelong learning. There are dispositional reasons people do not engage in lifelong learning where they do not have the confidence and do not have the motivation. There can also be informational reasons if they feel they do not have the information. Our system can be difficult to navigate at times. There are also situational reasons, for example, the need for child care or the time scarcity that people experience. A multidimensional approach is needed to lifelong learning. Sometimes there is a risk of defaulting to it all being a question of funding or the cost of programmes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Perhaps I will refocus that question. The question asked whether we are researching the profile of the courses being offered in some of those leading countries and if they match what Ireland is doing. I will come back to a personal example. I am unlikely to take an apprenticeship as an electrician at this point in my life. I am entirely likely to go back and study something else. I might go back and do a German course or a French course. Are we doing any sort of analysis whereby we look at the likes of the Scandinavian model? Reference was made to trying to build up that attitude to lifelong learning within society. There is not much point offering me an apprenticeship as an electrician because that will not be for me. It will be for somebody else and for sure we should be building those skills but are we comparing what those successful economies or societies are doing versus our offering or are we just doing a compare and contrast on it?

Mr. William Beausang:

We are not doing it at the granular level the Deputy is talking about but the OECD review was very much anchored in a comparison of what we do here compared to other European countries. Mr. Brownlee may speak to this later. In further education and training and across higher education, or in areas like community education, there is a huge provision of programmes. We would not see the supply side as being the obstacle to people engaging in lifelong learning. One example is the difficulty in getting appropriate information on the course, the type of programme, and the type of course that would suit, which leads to all of the work. One of the main themes of the OECD review is to put in place some online resource with a human-centric support that would guide people to aligning what they are looking for and the programmes they might be interested in doing with the programmes that are there. The programmes are there. The Deputy has asked a broad question about lifelong learning in society but when we talk about the workforce the system is hugely responsive to employers who engage with it to identify programmes that would be useful, helpful and relevant to their workforce. This would happen, for example, through the regional skills fora and following up on the work of groups such as the expert group on future skills needs. The short version of the response I give to the Deputy is it we do not really see it as a supply issue. It is more a co-ordination issue and an alignment issue that is holding us back in terms of lifelong learning overall.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am conscious of time and I am aware the Cathaoirleach runs a tight ship. I asked a question also about those 3,376 people who failed to complete a craft apprenticeship. Can we have information on that?

Mr. William Beausang:

On the number of craft apprentices who are recorded as having left their apprenticeships the dropout rate between 2021 and 2023 - over that three-year period - was 1,526. That was out of the total population of 66,525. There was a previously quoted dropout rate of 3,376 for that, which was based on overstated data that included instances where apprentices had paused their apprenticeship. In overall terms it is not as bad. We would never look at any drop out, whether it is an apprenticeship, in further education or in higher education and say, "That is a good outcome". It means somebody started something that he or she did not complete, which means the person had taken a step back rather than a step forward.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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If my maths was better I would be able to render it as a percentage but it is a very low percentage drop out rate. If it is 1,526 out of 66,525 it is a very low percentage.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Brownlee wish to come in here?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

Mr. Beausang has summarised the situation. It is a relatively low dropout rate when one compares it to technical areas in higher education. In an apprenticeship one is trying to impart highly specialised technical knowledge to apprentices.

It is tough, it is supposed to be tough and some people cannot make it through the robust on-the-job and off-the-job assessments. An awful lot of small businesses recruit apprentices. We are depending on those businesses staying alive for the four- or five-year period, and if they do not we sometimes lose the apprentice as a result. We have to try to do everything to reduce the dropout rate, but it actually does not compare too unfavourably with higher education.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our guests to the committee. I will start with Mr. Beausang. I assume there is much interaction between his Department and the Department of Education in respect of the promotion of policies for skills, especially since it is really important to try to target people when they are in secondary school. Is that correct?

Mr. William Beausang:

Yes. There is close collaboration between us and the Department of Education. That has culminated in a national framework for lifelong guidance, which is intended to adopt a cradle-to-grave approach to lifelong learning. That was a piece of work originally recommended for the Department of Education before we were established, but we worked with it, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Social Protection to agree a framework. I think there is an event planned in the next couple of weeks. It has already been launched by the Government, but this event is to launch it more strongly with guidance practitioners and other stakeholders. It is hard to find an issue more important than guidance as we look at our skills system and education system. Mr. Brownlee referred to the need for balance. The question we always have to keep asking ourselves is whether people have the right information when they are making their choices. Going back to the other question, we absolutely respect individual choices, but if those choices are not fully informed we are not meeting our requirements to learners. That is a an area that is very active because it needs to be, in terms of us changing the facts on the ground in looking at our performance for lifelong learning.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Brownlee mentioned transition year modules. I would have thought they were essential in trying to direct people at an important developmental age of 15 or 16 years towards what may be suitable for them. How does he think they are working?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

They are starting to work really well. We had a really important development recently which the Deputy might be familiar with. The NCCA oversees the development of the curriculum at second level. We have been working closely with it and we are just finalising something called an initial vocational education and training, IVET, module. It is a transition year module that will be used to give transition year students a taste of an apprenticeship or technical training in cooking, IT and so on. It is trying to take them into that more technical skills space. They are working really well. Most of our education and training boards now offer TY modules that enter their local secondary schools. In the past couple of weeks there has been something called an ETBI skills box. That is kind of like a suitcase-style thing. That has landed in every single school in the country and it gives them all the information they need about apprenticeships and further education and training.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We had a guy before the committee last week who got an interest in being an electrician while he was in school. He had the advantage that his father was involved in the business. I do not think he availed of any schemes during TY. What does Mr. Brownlee think can be done to try to assist students to identify where their skill and application may lie at a time when they are perhaps unaware of options available to them?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

A lot of it is related to the points race and the obsession with getting to university. Approximately two thirds of school-leavers go directly into university. It is about showing them there are other options available and also that it is not an either-or choice. Sometimes it will suit a person more to go into further education first and then progress to higher education. It is about getting those options on the table at the same stage. We have tried to do that by having a single CAO landing page where there are apprenticeship options, FE options and higher education options on the same page. Guidance plays a massive role. We work very closely with the guidance counsellors in schools to try to help them to understand those wider technical options. Guidance counsellors are teachers by trade, so they have all come through the same university pathway.

Trying to give them the understanding that there are other pathways that are much more suitable for many individuals is very important. Leaving certificate reform is also key.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Another cohort SOLAS is targeting, rather than those going through secondary school, are people who have left school but have not developed skills by the time they leave. SOLAS is trying to get them back into training. Mr. Brownlee mentioned the eCollege national online learning service and said it was going well. Does Mr. Beausang agree with that? Is he aware of that and does he agree it is going well?

Mr. William Beausang:

Online learning is obviously a very important part of bringing people back into engagement with education, especially because of the way young, and not so young, people now engage with the world more generally. eCollege is an important aspect of that.

I mentioned the complexity of the landscape previously. It is about getting guidance to people at a time that is relevant to their decision-making. I imagine any potential learner undertaking a casual Google search just getting lost in the plethora of opportunities that are there, which links back to the importance of the national strategic framework we now have with the Department of Education and the objective we are moving forward with. Skillnet was before the committee last week. It was tasked by the previous Minister with developing an online portal to provide career information to ensure, and this addresses the point the Deputy made, tools are available to people whereby they can test their alignment with opportunities that are there.

There are so many roles in, for example, the area of offshore wind, which is such a major national strategic priority, that just would not be in people's line of sight in terms of maritime and seafaring roles, notwithstanding that particular ETBs and colleges are active in promoting those kind of courses. It is about moving people from a more 20th-century view of the opportunities available to a 21st-century position. I heard a statistic yesterday that 40% of the jobs that existed post war no longer exist. The kind of analysis heard at the World Economic Forum is that in five years' time the profile of jobs in the economy that people are in will have once again changed significantly.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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If, for example, I am a 25-year-old man who is looking to get involved in skills, how will I become aware of eCollege? How is that brought to my attention? Is there any online promotion of it?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

We try. It is a stand-alone website that has a range of courses available. Micro-qualifications are very important. We have an education and training system that is set up for full-time education provision. We need to chunk it down, essentially, so people can go in and do an evening course or a three- or four-week course that will get them a specific skill that will allow them to maintain-----

Mr. William Beausang:

I do not have that information with me but I am sure the information can be compiled. As the Deputy will know, craft apprenticeships are divided between ETBs and TUs. Am I correct that the Deputy wants to know the population in each?

Mr. William Beausang:

We will ensure the Deputy gets that information.

Our World Skills Ireland competition is a really good event for demonstrating to people the plethora of roles that are out there that people do not have an awareness of in terms of career options. I do not want to overstate what we know or what is projected in terms of the future world of work because people will change career many times. Obviously people embark on a learning journey, a particular interest or programme and, perhaps, a particular career. What we need and try to focus on, both in HE and FET, is to ensure that people have the core capacities that they will need to be successful in that future world of work.

I will briefly reference a piece of work the ESRI is completing for us at the moment. The ESRI assessed some really high-tech areas where jobs are advertised at present, such as blockchain, AI and automation. The ESRI analysed 32,000 jobs on LinkedIn and assessed that there are roles that people are looking for that have very heavy technical skills but there is a huge need for business skills and for what is called transferable human skills. A school leaver, looking at FET or HE, or someone looking at a career change, probably would not have an awareness, particularly a career changer, that he or she already has a bank of skills that are very relevant in what might, on the face of it, look like a very high-tech area.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

As the Deputy said, numeracy issues are big issues for apprenticeships. Obviously, a lot of apprenticeships are maths based, so that can be big issue. Five or ten years ago, a person with literacy problems would have had to be referred to ETB literacy services, which was in another building. There is a stigma attached to admitting one struggles to read or write, or struggle with maths but now most of our training centres have an integrated literacy service, which supports apprentices while they undertake training. That support is a big part of our apprenticeship strategy. Also, there is a programme called adult literacy for life. It is one of our big responsibilities to address literacy not just for apprentices but across our communities because a lack of literacy skills is still a major issue, and especially as digital skills are so essential these days as well.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

On the question about additional instructors, we have sanction for 90 instructors and we have recruited over 70 new instructors so far. To the credit of our instructors and the union that represents them, they have very much stepped up. A three-intake model operates in every training centre in this country, which is good to see and is helping us to reduce backlogs quite significantly.

On where we send them, the Deputy is right that apprentices could technically be sent anywhere. In particular since Covid, we have tried to localise it and keep apprentices as close to their residences as we possibly can. Sometimes it does not work and the only place is in Donegal or Waterford. If the person has extenuating circumstances, then we try to address that. I do not think there are major gaps in different parts of the country. In fact, because of the emergency plan, we are setting up new workshops anywhere that can accommodation them.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Brownlee expand on that a little?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

Our biggest education and training board, ETB, providers are counties Donegal, Waterford and Wexford. That is because they have the facilities and the ambition. There is probably relative strength in provision there, which maybe means people are more likely to be sent to those areas.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. Brownlee expand on those workshops a little? Where are they? What are they covering? What are the crafts for which they are being used?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

Our three priority trades are electrical, plumbing and carpentry and joinery. Therefore, most of the new workshops are in those spaces, especially electrical because that is where the massive backlog is. There are extensions in County Donegal. There is a major ramp-up in the Cambridge building in Galway, for example, and Waterford and Wexford. Techniform has opened in Waterford city. There are all these new workshops opening on a monthly basis at the moment to try to expand that capacity.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Farrell wish to come in for a supplementary question?

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware of time constraints. We discussed the target of 10,000. Obviously, there is a huge issue in terms of our housing crisis and having people and the capacity to build the houses we so desperately need. From what I understand, the figure of 10,000 includes both craft and consortia apprenticeships, and it is not an official target for craft apprenticeships or new registrations. Can Mr. Beausang advise why, when we are trying to build on that, there is not a specific target with regard to craft or am I incorrect?

Mr. William Beausang:

Yes, what the Deputy said is right. There is a 10,000 target for apprenticeship generally and annual apprenticeship registrations. Craft has been really dominating that 10,000 figure.

In terms of how we are going about responding to workforce needs for construction for Housing for All, we commissioned a very important piece of work, which has been published, namely, Report on the Analysis of Skills for Residential Construction and Retrofitting 2023-2030. This gives a very detailed and granular requirement of the need at that very specific level of the expansion in numbers required and replacements reflecting retirements that will be necessary, or that are assessed to be necessary, to meet the workforce need for current housing targets. Obviously, that is alive to the point that, as I understand it, the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, is currently looking at requirements for housing targets into the future. Our work will in those circumstances need to be updated to reflect that.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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If I am ever talking about housing and the need to ramp up the housing supply, the first question I always get asked is around the fact we do not have the people to build it. There are different issues. There is the apprenticeship side of things and then there are people building hotels and office blocks rather homes and all that kind of thing. That is why I feel strongly about this. One would think that if it is Government policy to try to ramp up housing supply and we have that 10,000 figure, it would kind of be-----

Mr. William Beausang:

On the capacity, I saw an article in the newspaper, and I do not know whether it was a consultancy or whether it was based on a survey, but the construction sector was saying there is capacity there-----

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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There is, yes. I saw it on the news.

Mr. William Beausang:

As the Deputy will know, a really important part of our work is looking at how modern methods of construction can contribute-----

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely.

Mr. William Beausang:

-----because it is that productivity and innovation that will deliver on higher targets into the future.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of my time. That is something I feel really passionately about as well.

On that whole issue of the 10,000 target, the growth of apprenticeships is something we hear about a lot from Government. That is extremely welcome. It is really good that people have different opportunities and all that. However, I was looking at the growth of consortia apprentices versus the growth of craft apprentices since 2017 and there has been an average annual growth rate of 80% for consortia apprentices, which is great, versus 10.5% in craft apprentices. Would it be fair to say, therefore, that the focus seems to be on growing the number of people going into consortia apprenticeships versus the craft apprenticeships?

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

No, absolutely not. What it shows is that the consortia apprenticeships are new; they are just being set up. There are new apprenticeship programmes being set up every single year, so we are not comparing the same base in terms of the number of apprenticeships.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Those are the figures.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

That is what we hope to see. We hope to see it grow because remember, that was coming from a zero base five years ago.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it was 2% in 2016 and now it is 30%. Still, if we are looking at that, there is a significant difference in the growth rate.

When we look at the breakdown of the types of consortia apprentices, from what I understand, there were 48 different types of consortia apprenticeships last year. It is really welcome, as I said, that there are alternative routes outside the CAO system for people. I looked at the last three years and at the top five most popular courses, which account for 40% to 42% of new consortia registrations. They are concentrated in the areas of hairdressing, retail supervision and accounting technician. Why is there a particular focus on those three rather than the other 48, when we are seeing such a growth in consortia apprenticeships and we are seeing that massive annual growth rate increase in consortia apprenticeships rather than craft? That is my final question.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

I thank the Deputy for the really good question. The answer is that the courses are demand led. That is where employers want to take on apprentices.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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On the employee issue, the State is the biggest employer in the country. That is something we really need to get our heads around. That is not on SOLAS. It cannot tell the Government what to do but I think that is important.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee:

They are the most successful apprenticeships. They are the ones that really resonated with the employer base and so they have taken on hundreds and thousands, whereas some of the others are more niche. They were never intended to generate more than 30 or 40 per year. Some have just not been as successful in terms of driving demand. This is the nature of any kind of educational offering. The ones mentioned are the most successful because people want to do them and employers want to take the people on.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Brownlee.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullen, do you want to come in?

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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No, that is okay.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the officials for coming in before the meeting started today to discuss this very important issue. I thank the witnesses from the Department and from SOLAS. We had a very interesting exchange of views last week with some of the apprentices who appeared before the committee. The information given today will be part and parcel of the work we are doing. The meeting is adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 14 May when we will begin in private session.