Mr. Padraic Jones:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the invitation to meet and address them. I am accompanied today by superintendent Seán Fallon and sergeant Pauline Glennon.

An Garda Síochána at its core is committed to keeping people safe. Indeed the Garda Síochána Act mandates us to vindicate the human rights of every citizen. During today’s meeting I hope to detail how An Garda Síochána is working to deliver for people with disabilities. The prevention of harm and protection of vulnerable people is a key component of policing, and under the Government reform programme, we have placed a strong emphasis on the importance of human rights in policing. While human rights were seen by some in policing as secondary to enforcing the law, this could not be further from reality as observing those rights actively enables us to keep people safe. Protecting the rights of the most vulnerable: those who have suffered injury or trauma; victims of crime; those with disabilities; and those suspected of wrongdoing helps ensure a just outcome for all. As the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said, “police ... [are] the first line [of] defence ... for human rights.”

Training is key to implementing this approach and as part of a range of measures to embed human rights, we, in conjunction with the University of Limerick, have introduced a course on policing and human rights law in Ireland. This course has been completed by more than 3,500 personnel thus far. Colleagues from the USA, the Belgian Federal Police, and Tanzanian Police have also taken the course. The course delivers modules on rights and the victims of crime, rights and vulnerable witnesses and suspects, diversity and human rights and hate crime. There has been a top-down participation approach in this course, cementing the commitment and leadership of senior personnel to the area of human rights.

Garda personnel who complete the course are designated as human rights champions. Our human rights champions are provided with additional access to supplementary learning opportunities such as modules on autism, neurodiversity, mental health and Irish sign language.

Further to this training and responding to recommendations made following the publication of the report of the Commission of the Future of Policing in Ireland, one of our key organisational priorities has been to develop a human rights policy framework, with two strategies delivered in 2019 and 2022. These strategies are reflective of the provisions of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. In line with the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act, An Garda Síochána remains committed to eliminating discrimination, protecting human rights and promoting equal opportunities.

In working to deliver in this area An Garda Síochána has implemented training on hate crime to the entire Garda organisation, circa 18,000 personnel. This has provided practical reassurance to communities and individuals of our commitment to identifying their particular needs, including anti-disability hate crime. Our training, for example, on hate crime, invites the input and contribution of members of the community with disabilities and representative organisations to ensure their voices are heard.

From the time our Garda trainees commence their training as part of the community-centred policing module, they are equipped with the skills to police diverse communities. During their placement to Garda stations in an observational role, they will be exposed to vulnerable and minority groups and learn first-hand about the challenges they face. An Garda Síochána adopts a collaborative approach to ensure that we observe the rights of our communities and work with internal and external stakeholders to continually improve our response. Examples of this include our engagement with the Courts Service around trauma informed practice, AsIAm and other disability representative groups. In the area of equality, there are currently 589 Garda diversity officers, GDOs, nationwide. Their role includes ensuring equal access to policing services for all. There are GDO's in every Garda division in Ireland and their details are publicly available on the Garda website.

Every effort is made at local level to provide the necessary services and if, on those occasions, a member of the public has concerns or complaints around access they can contact our access officer via the Garda website, who is available to assist them to overcome these obstacles.

The Garda internship programme has actively sought representation from groups including those with disabilities to undergo a paid internship in the organisation, which has been fulfilling and rewarding for both the interns and their colleagues in An Garda Síochána. Two such programmes have been completed, and I am happy to advise that a number of our interns have secured permanent employment with us.

The Garda Síochána Act 2005 places an obligation on An Garda Síochána to bring "criminals to justice, including by detecting and investigating crime". As an organisation we are mindful that from time to time those with disabilities will be a victim, or at times a perpetrator, of crime and we have trained our personnel in how to deal with such challenges.

An Garda Síochána liaises regularly with stakeholders in the mental health services, area around our interaction with people who are at risk of immediate harm and the use of the Mental Health Act 2001.

To conclude, An Garda Síochána has built trusted relationships with local communities by listening and learning; by engaging with empathy and respect;,by being friendly, approachable and open; by ensuring our engagements are of the highest ethical standard that protects the human rights of all involved but, most of all, by treating people how it would want to be treated.

Ms Angela Denning:

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the committee. I am accompanied by Mr. Tom Ward who is the head of superior court operations. I look forward to discussing any aspect of the Courts Service’s application of the UNCRPD with the Chairman and the members of the committee. My remarks will focus on how we deliver services to people with disabilities as well as on the impact of the Assisted Decision-making (Capacity) Act 2015, which was enacted because of Ireland’s ratification of the convention.

The Courts Service is responsible for the management and administration of the courts. As the committee is aware, the administration of justice is a matter for the judiciary and, in accordance with the constitutional independence of the judiciary and the provisions of the Courts Service Act 1998, is outside the scope of the functions of the Courts Service. Separately, the Judicial Council is an independent body that was established in December 2019 and oversees the education and training of the judiciary.

The committee will appreciate therefore that in my discussions today I am precluded from commenting on any matter relating to the exercise by a judge of his or her judicial functions, any matter relating to the exercise of quasi-judicial functions by an officer of the court or matters relating to the training of judges. I am also, of course, precluded from commenting on matters of Government policy.

The Courts Service was established to support the courts in the administration of justice. This is a unique role supporting the third branch of government. In 2019, the service adopted a ten-year strategy to support a whole-of-system reform, driving behavioural and organisational change. This long-term vision of the service of the future is an ambitious vision of a modern, transparent and accessible courts system that is quicker, easier to access and more efficient.

We take our commitment to serve all persons equally very seriously and strive to ensure that our commitment to public service values ensures that the court user is at the heart of all services provided.

The Courts Service will be publishing its public sector duty action plan for the years 2024 to 2027 in the coming weeks. Included will be a commitment to ensure that a evidence-based approach to service design focusing on the needs of users, is adopted and progressed as part of our modernisation programme. The plan also includes commitments to implement further training to develop awareness of human rights, equality and support our vulnerable court users and that their needs are addressed in customer charters developed by offices.

We deliver our services through our people. In 2023, 7% of our workforce have self-declared as having a disability. The Courts Service provides reasonable accommodations include tailoring roles to suit the individual and providing equipment to support those with disabilities do their jobs. Our disability liaison officer supports staff with disabilities and their line managers by the provision of necessary information, appropriate contacts, guidance, suggestions and advice.

Our people and organisation strategy 2022-2024 sets out how we will support the organisation and its ambitions by providing the right support, structures, skills and environment for our people. The strategy is a significant commitment to embed ways of working that promote human rights and create an inclusive and diverse workforce. By embedding human rights and creating diversity, we seek to ensure that our staff will have a greater appreciation and awareness of challenges faced by minorities and vulnerable users accessing justice.

The equality, diversity and inclusion agenda in the Courts Service is being driven by its inclusion group. This group aims to ensure the Courts Service is not just compliant with equality and human rights legislation but that we change our culture so that we proactively strive to achieve a diverse and inclusive work environment, protecting the human rights of staff and users. A key aim of the inclusion group is to enhance service delivery for neurodiverse users and staff. We were an early adopter of the just a minute, JAM, card initiative in the public service and our offices and lanyards prominently display the logo, encouraging users that it will be okay to take just a minute when they call to a public counter. Last October, we ran events where representatives of AsIAm, ADHD Ireland and the Dyslexia Association of Ireland and discussed what it was like for people with neurodiverse backgrounds to access our services. Since last autumn, we have begun discussions with AsIAm to explore the possibility of accreditation of courthouses to become autism friendly. Some 180 staff have participated in a new Irish Sign Language training course and more than 100, staff including the senior management team, have received plain English training from NALA.

Our challenge daily is to provide the best possible service to all people living in the State within the available resources. We are a geographically dispersed organisation with 117 courthouses and offices across all counties. The majority are heritage buildings built well before the foundation of the State and were designed to intimidate rather than accommodate. It is Courts Service policy that all newly constructed buildings are fully accessible. We have also adopted the approach that where at all possible full accessibility should be provided even in refurbished heritage buildings which otherwise might in some respect be exempted. We acknowledge that there is work to be done in some of our older building stock to facilitate access to services for physically disabled people. The large variation in community type and size we serve in our courthouses directly impacts on venue utilisation. The question to be considered in retrofitting these venues is whether the usage of the building justifies investment.

Everyone who attends court presents with a different set of circumstances, a varying degree of understanding and a personalised set of needs. We recognise that access is about more than physical access to buildings. Our objective is to focus on redesigning services around the user that will allow us to deliver services that are inclusive to all and easier, quicker and more cost-efficient for all those who use them.

Many marginalised groups neither recognise their problems as legal ones nor identify the potential legal remedies for those problems. We are conscious that access to clear, easily understood information, an understanding of court processes and inclusion in court proceedings needs to be provided in an atmosphere of equality for all litigants. We have engaged with representative groups and end users from many backgrounds to understand their pain points in the current systems and to design an inclusive and accessible future state.

We have taken measures to improve access to the courts including the provision of interpretation services including for sign language in an increasing range of cases and for jurors and an upgraded website with clear, plain English information on all aspects of family law and debt. We have also mandated the use of plain English and fonts which are more easily read by users with literacy challenges in all correspondence.

A user-centric approach was taken in the design of application forms for the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act 2015. For new applications for one of the decision-making arrangements, we have provided user-friendly information on our website and a dedicated helpdesk which supports both our own staff as internal customers and external enquiries from families, legal and medical professionals. Our offices of wards of court and the general solicitor have been proactive in encouraging wards of court and their committees in applying early for discharge from wardship.

Thus far however, the rate of application for discharge has been disappointingly low and there appears to be a number of reasons for this including: contentment with the existing wardship processes; cost and effort in applying for discharge from wardship; the life expectancy of the ward; the absence of support for sometimes elderly committees; and uncertainty and cost associated with the new supervision regime. We will be continuing our efforts after the one-year anniversary of the commencement of the Act this Friday to encourage more people to apply for discharge.

We have increased the number of video enabled courtrooms to 138 and provided 360 degree virtual tours to help orientation and worked with the National Advocacy Service to arrange visits to the courtroom in advance of a hearing for vulnerable witnesses. In 2023, our access officer received 147 requests for assistance from court users.

We have committed as an organisation to digital-first but not to digital-only. It is our ambition over the course of our modernisation programme to reduce the requirement to attend at court offices and courthouses through the use of improved digital services designed to best serve users. Accessibility considerations are integrated into each stage of development of our new systems. We engage early with the National Disability Authority, NDA, use the design principles as outlined in the Action Plan for Designing Better Public Services and we engage third parties to audit our public-facing web applications for compliance with accessibility best practices prior to release. Lessons learned from one project and one audit are applied to other projects as they share technology and design patterns. By integrating accessibility into each stage of the development life cycle, the Courts Service aims to ensure that our applications meet the requirements set out in the EU web accessibility directive, providing equal access to all users, regardless of their abilities or disabilities.

However, modernisation is not all about IT. It is primarily about people. It is our aim to take a very user-centred approach to everything we do. Ultimately, we want to benefit our service users and will be dependent on them joining us on the journey. We interact with a diverse and complex range of users across a range of services and channels every day. It is my intention that our modernisation programme will provide just, user-centric, simplified and timely access to justice. We intend to do this by maintaining the innovation and agility we have demonstrated over the past four years, by collaborating with users and by keeping the needs and requirements of those who are the furthest behind at the centre of everything we do.

I am happy to take any questions members have.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and for their great work not just in this area but in many areas in our State. It is great that An Garda Síochána uses training to implement this approach and that it worked in conjunction with the University of Limerick and that so far, 3,500 have taken this course so far. It is nice to see An Garda Síochána has collaborated with the US, Belgian and Tanzanian police and that they have taken this course also. The NDA highlights that the Policing Authority will monitor the actions taken by An Garda Síochána to make its services and information accessible also and supportive of people with disabilities. Can the representatives discuss this? How is this driving improvement?

The Courts Service is interesting because it has 117 courthouses that are geographically dispersed across all counties. It has been said that they are there to inform, not intimidate. It has been a significant challenge to change the courts because the majority of them were located in historic buildings.

I want to ask one or two questions. In the NDA's Ireland’s Monitoring Report for the EU Web Accessibility Directive: 2023 Monitoring Period, the Courts Service receives an accessibility score of 35%. Can the witnesses discuss this? How is court documentation during procedures provided in an accessible format for people with disabilities? How can information and forms on the Courts Service website be accessed by people with disabilities? Let us say there are a large number of complaints. What is the service's complaints process?

I will give the witnesses time to answer these questions. I thank them for all their great work.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

I thank the Deputy. Certainly, in terms of oversight, the Commissioner has previously used the phrase "steel sharpens steel". In terms of having an oversight role, that certainly helps us to focus on the needs at hand, in particular, in this instance, the needs of people with disabilities, as we prepare our policing plan for the following year. For the 2024 policing plan, the draft would have been forwarded to the Policing Authority in advance of publication. At that stage, the Policing Authority has an oversight role and can contribute to and make observations on it and then return it to An Garda Síochána for us to develop those observations and take them on board if it is possible to do so. Subsequently, as the policing plan takes shape throughout the course of the year, we are required to report quarterly on it. Every quarter, the Commissioner will reply to the Policing Authority outlining how we are trending in terms of achieving the targets and milestones and the outcomes that are set out in the policing plan. Notwithstanding all of this, he also goes before them every month to meet in public session.

Ms Angela Denning:

I will start with the buildings first. Our policy is that all new buildings are brought fully up to standard and are fully accessible. The likes the Criminal Courts of Justice buildings that were done up recently in Anglesea Street in Cork, Mullingar, Waterford, Wexford and Drogheda have full access for everybody, proper signage, the loop system for people with hearing problems, separate circulation routes, effective lighting and signage, desks and work surfaces at flexible heights, good seating, accessible toilets and all of that. The challenge we have with the older buildings is that as funding becomes available, we renovate; it is funding dependent. That is one of the challenges we have. Where we have a courthouse that is maybe being used one day per month, we have to look at the cost of renovating it. Our policy is to try to pull court sittings back into county town venues. As we renovate those, we close some of the smaller outlying courthouses that are perhaps being used one day per month and are not up to specification.

We have a programme of work under way to completely change our website in order that it is fully accessible. We are working with the NDA in that regard. We want to bring everything into line with the EU web accessibility directive. We work with two services providers to try to make sure everything on the relaunched parts of the website is fully accessible. What we have tried to do is move across the information that affects the most vulnerable people first. Family law was an area in which we had a considerable number of unrepresented litigants of all abilities. Debt is another area. As we move the blocks of work across, we make sure everything is fully accessible. Written judgments is another area in respect of which we have done considerable work. The final area then was complaints. We only received three complaints in the past two years. One of the complaints went to the wrong email inbox and had been completely missed. As a result, nobody had dealt with it.

We are very good at local level. The local office manager would deal with perhaps local gardaí or solicitors in respect of the challenges somebody who is coming to the building might have. We would regularly put a case last on the list or something like that in order to accommodate a person perhaps with neurodiverse challenges or somebody with physical access problems. We have one or two courthouses around the country where we have real challenges with physical access. We would move those cases to another courthouse where there are wheelchair toilets, ramps in and out and so on. I will not pretend that physical access is not a challenge for us.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Jones and Ms Ellis for their opening statements. It is interesting to see how the Garda and the court system is dealing with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, and its implementation. It is very important.

Ms Denning said that 7% of the workforce in the Courts Service have declared themselves as having disabilities. That is well below the population average, which is in or around 20%. How is the Courts Service dealing with that? She also mentioned that the Courts Service is dealing with AsIAm in the context of being autism friendly. I would like to know what that entails. What is the nature of the discussion with AsIAm? This is important.

It is clear that crimes against people with disabilities are a bigger issue and that people with disabilities are at a greater risk in general terms. These crimes seem to be under-reported to a large extent. Do we have any idea of how under-reported they are? What is the process for prosecuting people for committing crimes against people with disabilities and those with intellectual disabilities?

I have experience of dealing with the Garda in terms of mental health and with the system that is in place. There is supposed to be a police psychiatrist available at every police station to with people who come into the station in a psychotic or some other state. However, the process is so slow that, more often than not, after a period of being in the police station, the person comes down from the psychotic state they were in and ends up not getting sent to hospital or to one of the mental health facilities. That is very discouraging. I have experienced it on a number of occasions.

I am curious about how video transmission works when it comes to people with disabilities. I am sure that is very challenging for many of those with disabilities. However, it would also be very challenging for the witnesses in terms of how they deal with it. Is that being used much or is it just something that is there? I am just not sure. Of course, it is very important that everyone has access. If people cannot make it to a court or Garda station, that type of help could be useful.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

I thank the Deputy. There were a number of matters there. I will try to answer, but the Deputy should please feel free to come back.

On crimes against people with disabilities, we have developed a hate crime strategy. We have trained everyone in the organisation, as I mentioned earlier, in that regard. That is 18,000 people who now have an awareness of hate crime, of which anti-disability hate crime is one element. We have also put measures in place to try to encourage people to report that crime to us. I fully agree that it is highly under-reported. Unfortunately, because people do not report it, we do not have a metric by which we can measure it. What we have done is listen to the lived experiences of people and tried to put measures in place to improve our accessibility to them to be able to report crime to us. Therefore, they can report in the traditional way by coming to a Garda station and engaging with a garda. We have also allowed people to report hate crime online in order that, certainly in the initial stages, they do not have to go to a Garda station. Identifying that some people may have a fear of Garda stations or gardaí for whatever particular reason, we have reached out to some NGOs and civil society organisations, CSOs - quite a number in fact - to seek their assistance and get them to come on board with us and be trusted third-party partners in the context of receiving hate crime reports. We have signed a number of agreements with NGOs and CSOs to have them take reports of hate crimes from individuals. The NGO can forward a report to us and with the agreement of that third party and, obviously, the individual involved, we will address it as a crime.

In terms of people who are arrested, I want to be clear about what they are arrested for. If someone is detained under the Mental Health Act, he or she is taken to a Garda station immediately and as soon as he or she arrives at the Garda station, contact is made with a medical practitioner. We are very conscious we are not professionals in this regard and that it requires a trained professional to examine the individual. Subsequent to that examination taking place, we will either be told or informed that the practitioner has agreed to send that person to an approved medical facility or the practitioner will say the person is not approved to go and, at that stage, we release him or her immediately.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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It is the time factor relating to when the person arrives at or is brought to the station. In some cases, it can be an hour or two hours and the person has come down from the psychosis. I have experienced this on a number of occasions. People were let out when they should not have been but it happens.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

Unfortunately, that is-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I understand.

Ms Angela Denning:

I will deal with the point about 7% of staff first. While it is well below the 20% average in citizens, it is quite high in terms of the public sector. The target was 2.4% in 2021, so we have risen to 7%. The target this year is 4.5% and will rise to 6% next year, so we are ahead of targets. Part of the work of the inclusion group and the way we go about recruitment is that we do a lot of recruitment ourselves at local level, which has helped us to increase our figures, so I hope it will continue to rise.

Regarding the project with AsIAm, we have looked at the Oireachtas and have spoken to staff here because the Oireachtas has become an accredited organisation. We are working with the Law Society and the Bar Council to try to get the justice sector accredited. At the most recent meeting, it was agreed we would move ahead with three pilot venues - two outside of Dublin and one in Dublin - and would do two audits of two of our largest courthouses. AsIAm would audit them to see what could be done to make those buildings more accessible for people with autism.

The last piece was remote courts. We had brought in remote technology to take expert evidence from abroad prior to Covid but it ramped up during Covid. The technology we use is Pexip. It is leading in terms of interoperability. It is very simple. You can use it from any mobile phone. You have one code, you click on it and that is it. You are straight into the room. There is no messing around with being admitted. The way we see it is that it gives people choice and options. When I was before the Oireachtas Committee on Justice in October 2021, some of the witnesses said it was beneficial for vulnerable court users because it gave people more choice. It meant they did not have to leave home. They could participate in proceedings. Where we have seen a big uptake is on the wardship side of things where wards of court can now dial in along with their committee, watch proceedings and participate in proceedings where previously they would not have attended at all, so it has given people options. We are very conscious of the digital divide and keep a very close eye on that. People can come in and use facilities in court offices and we make every effort to accommodate people. It is about giving people additional options rather than taking options away. That is the way we have looked at it. We are doing a proof of concept for new technology so we are working to see what lessons we have learned, what we could improve on and what we could make better for people in the future.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I was going to ask about wards of court so I am glad Ms Denning answered that for me. Something that comes up quite regularly for me is when someone needs sign language or the person does not have English. As the witnesses are aware, whether that be through Women's Aid, you have to apply to court for funding to get someone who is accredited with a language. This is a significant issue. My understanding is that while the funding is there if you apply to court for it, the number of people who are in place to provide the service has become a significant issue. Will the witnesses come back to me on that because I have been dealing with some of that recently? I know Ms Denning mentioned 117 courthouses. How many of them have wheelchair accessibility because this is another issue that needs to be addressed?

I have been fighting for the next topic for the past few years so the witnesses might work with me on it. Carlow is one of the fastest growing towns in the country. Since the previous census was carried out, it has grown by 9%. Carlow Garda station is a very busy station and everyone is so nice to work with but it has no lift. It has one of the busiest stations but there is no lift for a person with a wheelchair. I can assure the witnesses that I have been in contact with the Minister on several occasions about this. The gardaí have been asking for it themselves. What can An Garda Síochána do to help us get this lift for Carlow Garda station?

If someone goes to the Garda in any station and there is a language barrier or the person needs sign language, how is that monitored? How does An Garda Síochána deal with that? The biggest issue is we do not have enough gardaí. I know gardaí are under pressure. I read the report from An Garda Síochána today and it is very welcome. I see the different programmes it has and its work in different areas. One of the nicest involves engaging with empathy and respect and being friendly, approachable and open. That is what our motto should always be so I welcome that. Will the witnesses come back to me regarding the questions I asked?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

Representatives from An Garda Síochána were on the group that appeared before this committee. We are part of the Garda national community engagement bureau, so we are certainly involved in the community engagement piece. That does not mean we do not have a good network across the organisation. What I can promise is that we will take the Deputy's point about the lift to our estate management section and I will speak to the head of that section after this meeting. If the Deputy needs me to update her afterwards, I am happy to do so.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I would really appreciate that.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

In terms of the public coming to An Garda Síochána and language barriers, we have procured a contract with a service provider that will give us interpreter services. I may stand corrected but on the last count, the figure was up to 80 languages and we can do that in person or by phone. Obviously, interpreters might be more prevalent depending on the relevance of the language or the strength of the population of a particular country in Ireland. If we are dealing with somebody from a country we would not normally come across, it may take additional time to get somebody on the phone or, more appropriately, in person to attend a Garda station, but we have a contract with people, we review it and it seems to be working quite well.

We are looking at sign language and visual impairment protocols. These are some of the pieces of work that start and work their way from the ground up. This is a colleague with experience in his own family in terms of visual impairment. He has come forward with a proposal that somebody with a visual impairment who requires a Garda service from his or her house can contact our control centre and be given a code word over the phone so that when the gardaí arrive, they will have been given the code word over a radio system, so when the person goes to answer the door, we say it is the Garda and the person can be satisfied it is the Garda because they will repeat the code word that was given to him or her by our controller.

They are some of the mechanisms we are working on at present. We have done quite an amount of work on Irish Sign Language. I am thinking in particular of the seminar and symposium that recently took place in County Donegal. Superintendent Fallon gave a lecture at a recent symposium in one of the universities in Dublin.

Mr. Se?n Fallon:

Yes, it was at the new Irish academy.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

It is something that is very much on our radar.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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With all of the new recruitment of gardaí, has the Garda put anything in place? Things are changing and it is a totally different world. Has the Garda put in supports or help, or is anything going in along with the new recruitment? These are things that gardaí have to be mindful of, and I know they are. There is also that communication all of the time. For new recruits, is there anything that the Garda is putting in place in terms of a plan or some sort of system?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

Is that in terms of interaction with-----

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is the interaction with all of what is happening here now. The witnesses are talking about the visually impaired and sign language. That should be done from a very early stage and it is welcome that the Garda is doing that. However, when gardaí are recruited and are in Templemore, it would be important that would be done. This is very welcome and is a great initiative.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

In the very first module of their training, Garda trainees are spoken to and receive instruction relating to disabilities. Further on through the training, there is a module on community-centred policing and it certainly focuses on disabilities. As I mentioned in my introduction, that then marries with the operational piece. They get the theory and that is then married to the practical in their observational role when they go out for their 11 weeks and are actually exposed to people with disabilities and work with them.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Jones. That is very welcome.

Ms Angela Denning:

We provide sign language interpretation in all case types. We have assisted jurors. We had a deaf juror who participated and acted, and we also currently support a barrister who is doing her training, as members may have seen in the newspapers recently. We provide Irish Sign Language but, as with all interpreters, it is sometimes difficult to get an interpreter, even for other languages. It is about supply and demand and as the demand rises, more people will train to become interpreters.

With regard to the interpretation of other languages, we know that 750,000 people in this country do not speak Irish or English at home. Anybody who is in criminal proceedings is entitled to an interpreter as a matter of course. We are not funded to provide interpretation in civil or family law proceedings so, for that reason, we have decided to use our website to try to provide information to people in those areas in as easy a format as possible. We use videos, infographics and things that do not necessarily need language to help people to understand. We currently have all of that information in plain language. We are also working on a project to consolidate our forms, particularly for District Court family law, to make them far more easily understood. It is more like a passport form, where people fill in boxes, rather than language with the legalese that would have been traditional. It is to try to make it easier for people.

With regard to wheelchair access, 69 out of 103 court venues are accessible at the moment, although that survey was done in 2023. I asked our internal audit team to do an audit of our disability services and while that is not quite finished yet, I got the first draft in preparation for this meeting. The draft code of practice for accessible public buildings, which will come out, refers to independent accessibility so people would not need somebody to assist them in accessing, for example, doors, bathrooms and so on. We will go back to check whether they are independently accessible. That 69 will go up to 70 as we are doing work on Mallow this summer. That will be accessible as a consequence of the work being done and it will improve accessibility there.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Courts Service might send us a copy of that report.

Ms Angela Denning:

Once it has gone to our audit team, I will send it on.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and for their opening statements. Persons with disabilities are overrepresented in our criminal justice system. We had the Prison Service before the committee and its representatives told us there are a huge number of people in prison with mental health issues, autism or intellectual disabilities. A lot of that is down to the lack of support in the community. If people get the proper supports when are young, they might not end up committing a crime or getting in with the wrong company. It is imperative that there is an understanding of all of these issues.

Chief Superintendent Jones said there is training and that quite a number of members of the service have engaged in the training. Is that open to everybody or is it just for new recruits?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

The training I mentioned is at the University of Limerick and is open to everyone on a tiered basis. Obviously, they cannot accept everyone so it is an ongoing process. As I said, it started with senior people in the organisation leading out on the training and showing that leadership, but that has cascaded down across the organisation. We are at 3,000 personnel at the moment and it continues to flow.

Leading on from the Deputy’s question, there is a high volume of other training that we engage in as well. With regard to people with disabilities who find themselves as suspects in regard to crime, we have specific training on how to interview those individuals. There is a Garda Síochána interviewing model that was developed externally with input from the DPP and the Judiciary. That is really the bible in terms of what is best practice when interviewing people who may or may not have a disability. All of the personnel currently coming out of the Garda College are trained to the level 1 and 2 standards, which creates an awareness of disability. There are then level 3 and level 4 interviewers, who are obviously much more advanced. They are actually interview advisers and they are much more attuned to identifying issues. Not all disabilities are visible and we appreciate that. It sometimes takes an investigation to understand that somebody may have a disability, particularly psychologically.

We try to identify that and we have the appropriate supports at interview level to make sure it is identified but also, if it is identified and we do not have the capacity, that we understand how to best deal with somebody. A case in point is a young person who is autistic and who comes into custody as a suspect. Our level 4 interview has a very strong relationship with the Central Mental Hospital so we can engage with it at a professional level to get guidance, advice and a proper steer as to what is actually the best way to approach an interview with somebody with a particular disability.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was there input from disabled people into the training the Garda offers in Templemore and at the university, as well as the interview techniques? Did the Garda engage with DPOs and representative organisations when putting together that training or the interview process?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

While I have a copy of the Garda Síochána interview model with me, I cannot say off the top of my head whether disability advocates were involved in it. Certainly, our interviews of victims have been heavily influenced by the disability representative bodies. I mentioned Garda diversity officers with regard to some of our training. They are gardaí who have this portfolio in addition to their day-to-day work and they are identified on the Garda website. They are in every division in the country and they are trained to a standard so they can assist people with disabilities or from diverse or minority groups to access policing services on the same level as any other able-bodied person. In terms of their training, we have disability activists coming to impart their knowledge to them.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When we talk about percentages within the Garda, is Chief Superintendent Jones aware of the percentage of disabled people who are actually gardaí? Does the Garda come under the public sector minimum requirements?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

The sworn members do not, as far as I am aware, but Garda staff do. Currently, 6% of our Garda staff cohort identify as having a disability. In addition, we have had two very successful interim programmes. We have advertised intern jobs, which is paid employment within An Garda Síochána, for just shy of a year. That is really targeted at diverse, minority and disability groups - at people who may not have otherwise considered a career in An Garda Síochána. Out of those groups, the last cohort has just finished with us. I am certainly aware of three of them who have joined the Garda staff side of the organisation. In the first cohort, two, if not three, have become sworn Garda members. It has been very successful.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I agree.

When we talk about accessibility, it is across all levels. That includes digital formats. The NDA monitors EU web accessibility. The latter was very low for An Garda Síochána. Is that being addressed?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

Our website is currently being reviewed to try to make it more user friendly. In the context of our community engagement bureau, the organisation has quite a number of areas to address. Even with community engagement and some of the actions we carry out around disability, we are fighting for a slice of the An Garda Síochána website to make sure that our service is front and centre and that we can be seen. This work is ongoing. There is also work being done in the area of mobility. The Deputy may be aware that Garda members across the country now have devices for work that essentially are mobile phones. These devices are quite heavily loaded with apps and data that can help us identify some roads policing issues. We are working on that in the context of trying to map and create a digital older persons' register in order that our personnel have it on their phones. We are also trying to make it to use in order that we can engage with older people without having to go to written documents. This will be more swift and more online. There is certainly work ongoing there.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I have the hot seat. That is what I get for arriving late. I apologise for being late. I was in the Seanad Chamber where we were dealing with a motion.

We will acknowledge that Deputy Tully had the opportunity to ask some questions and we will return to the Deputy when she comes back to the committee. We will now turn to Senator Clonan.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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At the outset, I must declare a conflict of interest. My father was a garda in Pearse Street Garda station, and my grandfather was a garda in Kevin Street Garda station. Their service overlapped briefly in the 1950s. I am told that my grandfather used to go from Kevin Street to Pearse Street to make sure my dad was in bed. I believe they had a doorman there. Dad would have retired around 1985 or 1986. Policing has changed a great deal since then. All of my dad's friends were gardaí. I would say that I was parented, clothed, fed and educated by An Garda Síochána. My understanding of the challenges that gardaí face is informed by that experience. A garda friend of mine with whom I was in school is now a superintendent. I remember an interaction between him and a member of the public when that person just happened to meet him. There was a level of aggression and confrontation towards him just because he is a member of An Garda Síochána. This was the exact opposite of what my understanding is of the social contract between the public and members of An Garda Síochána. He told me that it happens all the time. I just want to incorporate that into the questions I have for the witnesses.

I have four adult and teenage children. I have a 22-year-old who is wheelchair user. He has neuromuscular disease. It was his 18th birthday on 7 February 2020, which was the day before the general election. To register to vote at that late stage, one had to go to the local Garda station. There was an issue with his wheelchair. The gardaí in the station actually came out to him in order that he could register to vote. They brought the stamp and everything. They did it really well; it was a solemn kind of thing. That was an interaction with a person on a good day when they had the time and resources and were not pulled away to deal with other matters. It was at a particular time in the evening when they had the time to do that.

Given the strategies in 2019 and 2022 informed by the UNCRPD, I have no absolutely no doubt that, from an organisational and corporate perspective, An Garda Síochána is completely committed in respect of the issues. However, since I was elected, I have received a great deal of correspondence from disabled citizens. There is a certain cohort that reports suboptimal experiences either with the Courts Service, the administration of justice or members of An Garda Síochána. Subjectively, very often it is an interaction with somebody who is having a bad day and possibly that member of An Garda Síochána may have had a series of interactions on the day that were very confrontational and difficult to manage. Then, the garda must deal with a disabled citizen who perhaps has some behavioural trait or tick that can be ambiguous and can be misinterpreted. I am aware An Garda Síochána has all the procedures and the training in place to educate its members as best it can but my questions are more about gardaí. If my understanding is correct and if gardaí are faced with this level of confrontation and hostility every day - and I imagine that much of the time they are meeting people who are at a very low point in their lives and their behaviour may be very uninhibited, and I am sure they might be aggressive - are there any kinds of supports for members of An Garda Síochána in that regard? It is a very unusual workplace in that respect. Does An Garda Síochána have a formal mechanism for looking after the resilience or mental health of its members if they are exposed to that level of aggression day after day? It possibly informs some of this, but I believe there are exceptions. As I have said, our experiences are overwhelmingly and exceptionally positive. That is my first question.

My second question relates to An Garda Síochána. Do the witnesses know what percentage of members of An Garda Síochána have disabilities? What would the breakdown of that be? For example, what are the levels of neurodiversity within An Garda Síochána or how many members will experience chronic stress reaction from being exposed to hostility, conflict or risk? When one is aware of a risk in the environment most other professions either eliminate or remove the risk but the Garda Síochána cannot. I was in the army for 12 years so I understand about how one tries to control for risk but cannot remove it. All the research tells us that if a person is exposed to risk the natural, inevitable and organic response to that is chronic stress reaction. It can be very successfully treated because it is a normal and natural automatic response. If it is not treated, however, there is a risk that the person could develop post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD. Do the witnesses know what levels of chronic stress reaction there are within the force? What are the structures or programmes in place to support Garda members in the context of resilience, mental health and issues relating to trauma?

My next question is for the Courts Service. I agree that the Criminal Courts of Justice are accessible. I went there with my son when he was in transition year in school. A very high-profile murder case was being heard at the time. I will not mention which case, but he was really lucky on the day because the evidence was very interesting and the cross-examination was very explicit about what happened on the particular day leading up to the murder. On the way home, my son said that he believed that the case was about money and not sex. That just stuck in my memory. I have been a witness in many court cases. Back in the bad old days of the 1990s, I was often down in the charge courts with soldiers who were being charged with assault or aggravated assault. It was a very intimidating environment for anybody.

Although I know the witnesses cannot comment on the training of judges, can they state whether the Judiciary gets any training in this regard?

My final question is on the modification of what are often heritage buildings. My family stopped going to the Natural History Museum because we could not bring Eoghan upstairs. The museum would say that it cannot install a lift because it is a listed or old building. I believe that is unacceptable. Is this a challenge or obstacle in making facilities fully accessible?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

I will lead on the first question. The Senator referred to his son receiving his authorisation to vote outside the Garda station. This should not be unique; it is just what we should do in our work. We have an estate similar to that of the Courts Service in certain respects. It is quite old and, in fact, some of the buildings are Victorian, so we have to adapt our service. We have tried to modernise in a different way. We spent quite an amount of money recently purchasing Garda clinics. These involve vans that are repurposed and kitted out to be Garda clinics. They allow us to go across the country and are allocated on a regional basis. There are ten of them, three being in the Dublin area. For all intents and purposes, these are the closest we can get to a mobile Garda station. They are electronically fitted out and have an area in which one can step in to make a statement, if one so wishes, or even just speak to a member of An Garda Síochána.

On the second point, gardaí get much more abuse now than they did historically. That may be a testament to what people think of authority. I am referring not only to gardaí but also to authoritative figures across society. Thoughts about such people have changed considerably since the 1980s, but there is still an expectation that, no matter what we have been at prior to an engagement, we will act professionally and, as I stated in my opening remarks, act with empathy and treat people like we would like to be treated ourselves. That is the standard we set for ourselves and that I would like to think we achieve. If we do not, I would certainly like to hear about it as a manager so we can correct our behaviour and ensure people have a positive engagement with us. Obviously, there will be times when it will not be positive, for particular reasons, but in the main it should be.

On the support of our members, the organisation has carried out some transformational work in recent times. We always have tried to have a supportive environment for our employees and colleagues. That starts on a peer-to-peer basis. We have a large number of trained peer supporters across the organisation. If somebody is having a challenging day or finding something difficult, there is a network of peer supporters, advised by every division or district, to whom members can speak. They do get training and realise the need to speak in confidence. They will not breach that confidence. To take things forward in more recent times, we have had the Garda employee assistance service. Employee assistance officers are allocated to every region across the country, and their sole job is to provide employee assistance. They are headed up by a superintendent. The Commissioner regards this issue as so important that he has put a superintendent in place on a permanent basis to ensure that well-being and employee welfare supports are in place.

The population is becoming more technologically astute and that is reflected in the Garda. We have created an app, KOPS, Keeping Our People Supported. That gives welfare supports and other guidance, even regarding some practical measures such as how to deal with shiftwork or train yourself to eat well rather than poorly on a night shift, perhaps. In addition, we have procured a counselling service, entailing professional counsellors outside An Garda, with a freephone number. If a member is experiencing a stressful reaction, he or she can use this service. It does not necessarily have to be work related. It could be about something at home that was triggered at work, or vice versa. Six free counselling sessions are made available to our members. The counsellors are independent and we do not get told about the counselling. We just get some sort of code number from the counselling company indicating somebody has availed of a certain number of sessions and that payment can take place.

There is support from the employee assistance service but also from our occupational health service. Our occupational health service carries out a significant amount of work to ensure people are physically well and fit. Before they undergo courses, they are sent for a medical check. Depending on the course the member is to undergo, there are certain requirements. For argument’s sake, if it is a firearms course, hearing will be checked to ensure nobody needs protection additional to what is already to be provided. That is just an example of some of the work that goes on.

There is support for members who get injured. Whether it is a psychological or physical injury, the member engages directly with our chief medical officer. The member’s own GP delivers the prognosis but our chief medical officer engages with the member to plan a return to work, if that is what is feasible. It is ensured that reasonable accommodations are made for individuals before they go back to work so that when they do go back there will be continuing supports in place.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Does Mr. Jones have a breakdown for his workforce? How many are neurodiverse and how many have disabilities?

Mr. Padraic Jones:

No. To become a Garda trainee, you are generally required to be of good health and of sound mind and constitution, but that does not mean that people do not come into the organisation with certain conditions. Reasonable supports are put in place for them. This is very much carried out in consultation with our chief medical officer. The figures are not freely available to me at this time.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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If the figure is 7% in the Courts Service, I suspect there is probably a cohort of people with hidden and other disabilities whose proportion is probably consistent with that in the general population.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

That is a fair assumption. We do reflect society and come from society, so-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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That is not a bad thing.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

Not at all.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I am just saying that I imagine it is the case.

Ms Angela Denning:

On the supports, everybody has a constitutional right to access the courts but nobody really wants to go to court. Anybody who has been in a Garda station is usually in worse humour by the time he or she gets to court. We offer support to our staff. We have the employee assistance officer that every Civil Service organisation has. We have recently given de-escalation training to some very front-line staff because we have had incidents of violence and aggression. It is a question of trying to calm things down before violence and aggression arise. We have offered trauma-informed training to our staff and there has been a very high take-up. There have been 666 participants so far out of a workforce of 1,269. The staff would say they found the training to be a great support to them in their work lives as well as in dealing with the public. They would also say peer support is unparalleled. They say there is very strong peer support and that this has helped with their resilience.

I am aware that the Judiciary does training but I do not know the level at which it is done or any other details. I was at a conference on Friday at which a significant portion of the day was given over to training.

Regarding the modification of heritage buildings, I am delighted that the Senator’s son had a good experience at the Criminal Courts of Justice. Modification is a genuine challenge for us. The average age of our buildings is more than 160 years and many of them have protected interiors. We cannot do anything with the interiors. There are many courthouses where you can go a certain distance inside but then face a challenge. You might face a challenge getting to the witness box, for example, and have to give evidence from the floor of the courtroom. We have wheelchair-using judges who have difficulty in some courthouses. It is a genuine challenge for us. Our aim is to have a fully accessible courthouse in every county town so we can transfer our work into fully accessible venues. In this way, we can try to consolidate the work and best help users. There is a challenge in that the regulations will change. It is not just about accessibility; it is also about independent accessibility. Therefore, we are going to have to look again to ensure that, for example, doors that must currently be held open for you can be opened yourself with a button so you can get around.

We are building a new family court building on Hammond Lane in Dublin, which was granted planning permission very recently. The building will be fully accessible all the way from the front door to the judge's bench so that Courts Service staff, judges, court users and anybody, no matter their ability, can get around the building. We liaised with nearly 35 organisations to design the building and I am very pleased planning permission has been granted.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I am glad to hear about the peer-to-peer mentoring. Back in the nineties, in Lebanon, post-traumatic stress debriefing was a new concept. After a period of six weeks of very intense shelling and attacks, we, as a unit, were offered PTSD. The person who gave the training was a chaplain but was not qualified and said we should say a decade of the rosary. We got a decade of the rosary, so I am glad to see things have moved on. It did us no harm but I do not know how effective it was.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I am glad the Senator has raised such an important issue. Yesterday I spoke in the Seanad about the GRA conference and how extremely difficult issues cross the desk of a garda. I know we all appreciate that when a garda starts his or her shift, be it day or night, he or she never knows what will unfold. To paraphrase another phrase I used, who is going to protect the protectors? It is important that we are mindful of this.

My worst experience of seeing gardaí being mistreated was in Dolphin House. Eight years ago I visited there after an organisation that deals with domestic violence asked me to see the conditions in Dolphin House. At the time, there was a very strong lobby for new dedicated family law courts. It has taken eight years to get planning permission, so this issue is nearly like the children's hospital. While I was delighted to hear that planning permission has been granted, I could not help but think about how long this situation has gone on.

I was shocked when I was there. It was horrific to see how women were treated when their former or present partners came in and there was no privacy or space when they were waiting to attend hearings, often trying to mind their children. Sadly, young men attended who were under the influence and they were very threatening to the gardaí, who were very young. I really felt for those gardaí. Therefore, it is important we always bear that in mind.

Mr. Ciarán Delaney is in the Gallery. He is very well known and well respected by all of us. He sent me correspondence at the start of this meeting about two specific incidents, one which he witnessed, where gardaí treated individuals in a way that was absolutely less than it should have been. I propose to send that to Mr. Jones. I corresponded with Mr. Delaney to say I would not raise the specific issues here but would forward the specific incidents and ask that somebody come back to me about them.

Mr. Jones has answered quite a bit about training. I had the privilege one time of being on the Special Olympics torch run and I stayed overnight in Templemore when we were doing the run there. I have a brother who has Down's syndrome and I was very conscious and appreciative of the module of training all trainees in Templemore received at the time. That was done through the Special Olympics and it was about 15 years ago. It was wonderful to work with the Garda to raise awareness in the towns we travelled through. I thank the force for all of that. Certainly all of that training is hugely important.

Both sides have pretty much answered the questions on accessibility, as in, everyone is doing their best but there are old buildings on both sides. Certainly the State needs to invest to make sure all buildings are fully accessible.

The issue of data collection is very important. We referenced hate crime earlier in one of the responses. Obviously we await the passage of the legislation on hate crime and hate speech. I believe the data on local JPCs is also important because there can be under-reporting. To recommend and encourage reporting, it needs to be very clear that it is reported and accounted for, and if extra supported measures need to be put in place, that the State and the Garda will endeavour to put them in place. The same applies to the justice system.

On the Courts Service, it was recommended that a comprehensive training module be put in place for everybody in the justice sector. What is of concern is when people, particularly those with invisible disabilities, find it difficult to express themselves or express themselves in a way that may not be seen as appropriate and sometimes is due to a lack of emotional intelligence around understanding the language that is being used.

While I take my rightful place and allow the Chair to resume his seat, I would appreciate a response.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

I will speak to my comments in response to Senator Clonan regarding An Garda Síochána not reaching the standards the public deserves and certainly we expect from them. I am more than happy to speak to the Senator offline about the matter, take the details, and ensure an appropriate response is issued and certain actions taken. Obviously, I have to be mindful that we have oversight in that space. It may be that the individual or individuals concerned may wish to exercise the right to go to our oversight body about the matter, but I can discuss that.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Jones.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

I thank the Senator for her comments about the Special Olympics. I have been one of those participants in the law enforcement torch run previously. Certainly one of the highlights of my career, even though I did not get into Croke Park, was seeing the Special Olympics World Games being held in Croke Park in 2003. At an operational level, I have been very supportive of Special Olympics Ireland throughout my career by ensuring we partake in the torch run whenever it comes around, and I think it is coming again soon. Assistant Commissioner Hilman represents An Garda Síochána in respect of the law enforcement torch run and has engaged very recently with other police services to forge good relationships and making sure we can get around the country again and get to meet people. The torch run is a huge opportunity for engagement with people, in the right sense, and likewise for people to engage with us in a very positive way. I will convey the comments back to Assistant Commissioner Hilman.

On data being available to JPCs, we publish our hate crime data every year. We give an overview and break it down per county if not per division. Those details are publicly available and JPCs can access them as readily as a person who is sitting at home this afternoon.

With the advent of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act, and I expect that commencement will take place sometime this year, JPCs will cease to exist. At some stage JPCs will be replaced by community safety partnerships. Again, that is a good opportunity for those partners to assist us in terms of how we deliver policing services.

Ms Angela Denning:

I fully agree with what has been said about Dolphin House. It is leased accommodation and a former hotel that was built in the 1880s. It is not suitable for the type of work that goes on there. We have five courts. We have increased the number of courts there to five. The space is limited and the atmosphere is very tense. Our staff, with the great support we get from An Garda Síochána, do a remarkable job in conditions that are quite poor.

We did work on this very recently. We have, for example, replaced the lifts, and it is wheelchair accessible. The challenge is that while it is possible to get into the courtroom, it is not possible to get up to the witness box. As well as replacing the lift, we have done work on the roof and the external wall, but this has been done with a view to just keeping the building going until such time as the family courts building is dealt with. We have also included things like distraction places for children, with some toys on the wall and things like that, because we recognise that people need to bring their children with them. We have also launched a 360-degree tour on the website where people go to familiarise themselves with the building in advance. We have done this for Dolphin House, the CCJ, the Four Courts and Áras Uí Dhálaigh in Dublin in order that people can have a look beforehand to figure out where they need to go and to familiarise themselves with the location.

The data side of things is improving, but we had a large number of computer systems that did not talk to each other for a long time. The situation with our data management is now improving dramatically. Over the course of the past year especially, it has improved a great deal. We collect information about the cases but not about the people who bring the cases. This is a gap we will have to resolve across the justice sector rather than just in the Courts Service.

We are putting a great deal of effort into awareness training for our staff. They have really embraced the JAM card training. We have had 1,771 staff participate in this training, which is about creating awareness around allowing people to take an extra minute. This is in order that if they feel uncomfortable, they do not feel uncomfortable asking if they can have a minute. We have the posters placed very prominently, and people can just point to them. We all have it on our lanyards as well to let people know they are supported. It is one area the staff feel has really improved. It has helped them as well with their patience. I know they are under pressure but this is about awareness and understanding where our users are coming from. As I said, people do not come to court for the fun of it. Nobody is in there because they really want to be there; they are there because they must come. They are nervous already and do not know what is happening. Our job is to provide people with information in advance to allow them to be better prepared for when they do come to court, and also to ensure that our staff are better prepared and will just have that bit of extra patience.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the complaints' procedure, it was said there were only three complaints. How accessible is this procedure? Perhaps people are not complaining because they either do not know how to do so or find it very difficult. I ask Ms Denning to consider this aspect.

My other question relates to wards of court. I know people cannot be made wards of court since the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) (Amendment) Act 2022 came into effect. My understanding is that there is a three-year process for people to be discharged from wardship. Ms Denning said it has been very slow. I refer to the cost and effort required in respect of the discharge. Some families who have applied to have a loved one discharged from wardship have been told they will have to pay legal fees of anything up to €5,000. If there is only a three-year period in which to do this and one year has gone already, I do not understand why it has not moved on further or why the courts are not actively pursuing the removal of people from wardship.

Ms Angela Denning:

On the complaints, those are the official complaints we have received. People may be complaining to the local office managers, but I am not sure. Our office managers throughout the country try to resolve problems locally as they arise.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Ms Angela Denning:

Things need to be pretty bad before a complaint comes in through the official complaints channel. It may be, as the Deputy said, that people do not know how to complain. Now, we have the information on our website, but, again, there is a need to go and find it. We are doing major work this year to try to improve our customer service offering and to figure out how we will deliver services in the future. This is one area I have asked to be included in that work. We cannot fix things if we do not know about them, and the complaint's channel is one of the ways we find out about things that are wrong.

Turning to wards of court and discharge from the wardship process, over the past year we have had more than 145 applications for discharge. The majority of those were brought by the General Solicitor for Minors and Wards of Court, who is appointed where no family member is appointed as the committee for a ward of court. There is a bit of a challenge here. The Registrar of Wards of Court will start to list cases for discharge this year. The problem is that we do not want to list a case where the ward or his or her person's family are not ready for the discharge. This would be the worst of both worlds, where the person would have no support and could be left high and dry. This is a challenge. We have recently engaged in a big push, and Mr. Ward will know more about this aspect, to try to encourage more people to apply for discharges, but there are challenges.

Mr. Tom Ward:

I might just come in on that point. If we were to think about any of us around the table here and the stage we are at in our lives, we could be in the middle of buying property, we could be owed money by someone or whatever. The discharge process is an effort to finalise all the outstanding matters to do with somebody's affairs to allow them to successfully move to the new arrangement. There are a couple of issues around this. The Deputy mentioned the legal fees. An application to the High Court is certainly involved, which is intimidating in its own right. It is necessary to go to the time and effort of finding a solicitor to move the application and then people are caught with the legal fees. After that, once the new arrangement is in place, people may find themselves in a position where they might have to get a professional decision-making representative, such as an accountant or a solicitor, to be part of their future as well. There are costs associated with that as well.

I am saying there is a good cohort of people who are very happy to be under the wardship regime at the moment. They see themselves as paying minimal fees to us. This cohort of people went to the trouble of having become wards of court whenever they came in, so the incentive for them to move on is not pressing, unlike for others who really want to get out of wardship. We are trying to encourage people to move sooner rather than later. We have done a great deal of outreach work with individuals and their families to encourage them in this regard and to point out to them that this day is coming and it would be better for them to come in early. As Ms Denning said, if we think about the period after discharge from wardship, they are going to need all the supports around them as well. It is better that this is done in a planned rather than a forced way, whereby, for instance, the President of the High Court could make an order discharging someone from wardship and no supports would be in place. This really would be a less-than-optimal solution for those people.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think this process was very well planned from the start. I refer to the three-year period. All these issues should have been taken into account when the Act was passed.

Mr. Tom Ward:

Well, these are the provisions of the legislation. We have to get on with it.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know.

Ms Angela Denning:

The age of the buildings is a real challenge for us. It is not just people in the criminal system who have disabilities.

The civil system is where people, after road traffic accidents, catastrophic injuries at birth and so on, all come to the Four Courts or one of our bigger buildings around the country to seek justice. We have the judicial review list, where people with disabilities in particular are frequently litigating to access rights. It is a challenge for us right across the spectrum. It is largely dependent on funding and the capacity on our side and that of the OPW to do the work. Given the current rate of building inflation, it is not a good time to be doing a lot of work on courthouses, but as that changes we might get better value for money. The challenge is working through the courthouses one by one, and we are trying to do it in a planned way. The report I spoke about earlier is an internal audit report. I asked our internal auditor to look at our compliance with disability legislation right across the board. I have the draft report. It first has to go for management observation and then, in accordance with our governance structure, it goes to the audit and risk committee of the Courts Service board, which will make its recommendations. We have a recommendation tracker, which means an eye is kept on the recommendations and we report back to the audit and risk committee as the delivery of each of the recommendation is worked through. It is a pretty robust system.

Ms Angela Denning:

Once it goes to the audit and risk committee it will be available on our website.

Mr. Padraic Jones:

On the selection process, there are currently regulations in place for the employment of garda trainees. That is covered by the Garda Síochána (Admissions and Employment) Regulations 2013. The regulations state that applicants must be, "certified by a ... medical practitioner nominated by the Commissioner to be in good health, of sound constitution and suited physically and mentally to performing the duties of a [Garda] member". However, I am aware there is a reasonable accommodations board chaired by our chief medical officer, who will try to understand the issues relating to a potential trainee to determine, with a board pulled from senior levels across An Garda Síochána, whether that individual would make a suitable garda trainee, and that the disabilities can be managed through reasonable accommodations. Following on from that, from time to time sworn members become disabled for whatever reason, whether an accident at work or some misfortune at home. There are certainly reasonable accommodations put in place for those colleagues who, unfortunately, become disabled. Most recently, I am thinking of an area in the west of the country where a member suffered life-changing injuries. Amendments and changes were put in place in the physical environment in the Garda station to allow that member to continue his or her career. As I may have said earlier, 6% of our Garda staff cohort identifies as having a disability. We have made significant strides there to ensure people with disabilities are welcomed into the Garda organisation.