Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good morning everybody. As Cathaoirleach of Seanad Éireann, it is my privilege to welcome everybody to the Chamber of Seanad Éireann. I officially and formally welcome members of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community (2023) and I thank the representatives of the Traveller community for participating today. I welcome my colleagues from Seanad Éireann and thank them for being here today, namely, Senators O'Hara and O'Sullivan, and of course our good friend, Senator Flynn.

As Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, I am delighted to be here to begin this meeting. I thank Leo Bollins and all of the team in the secretariat for the work they have done to prepare for today. The theme of today's meeting is "Give Travellers the Floor" and it is highly appropriate to have it in the Houses of the Oireachtas, that is, in the people's house. The title of the meeting gives us an opportunity to listen to representatives of the Traveller community who will lead the debate. I will not take up much time but it is an historic and important occasion and it is appropriate and fitting we have this meeting in the Chamber of the Seanad, which is the Upper House of the Oireachtas. It is an important debate and one I hope will resonate beyond the Chamber today.

Seanad Éireann is a House of our national Parliament that for a long time has allowed public representatives from diverse backgrounds to raise issues which impact upon their communities. We are fortunate to have among us Senator Flynn who, as a Senator from a Traveller background, brings an insight on a wide range of issues to this debate, but in particular around policies which affect the Traveller community. She is a person we have become friends with. We listen to her. We watch as she advocates. She is a true champion and our House is a better place by her inclusion in it. We salute and thank you, Eileen. Míle buíochas.

Therefore today in the Seanad Chamber, we will listen to and hear a diverse range of voices. I am aware the previous Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community published its final report in November 2021. I am also aware of the considerable work undertaken by this committee, under Senator Flynn's leadership, to monitor the implementation of the report and to place the needs and wishes of the Traveller community at the centre of its work. I wish the committee the best in its endeavour and in the remainder of its work.

More important, I acknowledge the work undertaken by the community representatives who are with us today. Those who work with the communities on the ground in a variety of ways and who seek to advance the rights of the Traveller people are often the unsung heroes in our society. I know from my own city of Cork, where I served on the committee, that the women, in particular, have been strong leaders and voices in the community for effecting change. I am pleased that today the representatives in this Chamber will have the opportunity to speak and to share their experience of living in Ireland, although I also appreciate some of them may be accidental advocates of a sort. While some of the community representatives may perhaps not want to speak today, it is their opportunity to be here and participate and I hope they take that on board.

Difficulties in accessing services or experiences of discrimination are running through your community but I encourage you to be a voice and to be an advocate on your own behalf and on behalf of all of us today and in the future.

I commend the community representatives on being here, on your work and on your willingness to share your insights at this very historic and special meeting of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community (2023).

Before I hand over to Senator Flynn I welcome students from Newtownforbes National School, County Longford, who are here today. You are all very welcome. Have a nice visit to Leinster House.

In handing over to the committee chairperson, I congratulate Senator Eileen Flynn for her Trojan work and her advocacy. I wish you all a very happy and positive deliberation today.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome you all here this morning. It is absolutely overwhelming to have the Seanad Chamber full of members of our community. It is a day and an opportunity for people to speak. This is a legacy and history. We can tell our children and our grandchildren that we were doing something different and making the change. This day is evidence that things are changing and moving in the right direction for our community. When I first started out as an activist never ever did I dream that I would be chairing a committee meeting full of members of our community where we have an opportunity to speak in our Houses. These Houses of the Oireachtas are our Houses. I wish you all a very special welcome and I wish you every success today in your speeches. We are all here to support each other. We are not out to get each other.

If it is okay with members, we will first agree the minutes of our last meeting. These have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed. No apologies have been received.

Before we start the discussion today I will read a note on privilege. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. We will not talk about the lack of implementation today.

I suggest that we start the public meeting. We will start on education and accommodation. We will end this part of the meeting at 1 p.m. and witnesses will have the time to speak from now until 12 noon, when we will call on members of the committee and open the floor to debate. That is the first half of the session. The second half of the session will be from 2 p.m. until 4 p.m. and this discussion will cover issues that impact our community. The five issues are: health, including mental health; accommodation; education; employment; and justice. The witnesses' opening statements and speeches will be published on the website.

I am delighted to welcome everybody here this morning. I thank the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad for giving us this space, the Seanad Chamber, today. I thank our committee clerks, who were with us at our last committee as well, Ellen, Margaret, Éanna, Leo, John, Tom and Timothy for all their hard work. This committee would not be doable without the work of the clerks. They really are the brains behind the committee. I thank them all so much for their work and inputs.

This morning we will discuss accommodation and education. I now invite speakers to make their opening statements. I call on Barney Joyce from the Irish Traveller Movement to speak on accommodation.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I extend our heartfelt gratitude to the Cathaoirleach of the committee, Senator Eileen Flynn, for her leadership in spearheading this morning's event. It underscores the indispensable role of Travellers in decision-making processes. Without our central involvement, true solutions remain elusive, impeding our right to self-determination and stifling our ability to define our future and needs.

As an Irish Traveller representing the Irish Traveller Movement, I bring to the discussion the urgent matter of Traveller accommodation within the national policy landscape. Despite promising initiatives the lack of implementation and the harsh realities faced by our community remain stark. The disheartening reality is that, despite years of advocacy and engagement, the systemic failure to address overcrowding, poor accommodation, and homelessness persists, constituting a grave violation of human rights.

The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 provides the legislative and policy framework setting out the statutory responsibilities of local authorities and the national and local oversight infrastructure for the provision of accommodation and related supports to the Traveller community. In 2022 more than 1,000 Traveller families, including some 2,500 children, had no permanent electricity or heating, or were living in an overcrowded home designed for single families. This is 246 more Traveller families than the year before and amounts to over 4,500 people nationally. The extent of this has been seriously neglected and underestimated.

The lack of adequate response from the State is concerning. There is a disparity between the mere 44 units of Traveller accommodation built by local authorities from 2019 to 2022, when need was assessed at 3,060 units. This contrasts with the rate of 10,000 new housing builds delivered in the same time nationally. It exacerbates both the challenges faced by the community and the absence of Government oversight. Moreover, with Travellers being 22 times more likely to experience discrimination in accessing private rented accommodation the situation highlights the urgent need for more comprehensive and equitable policies to address these pressing issues.

In May 2022 the report on the implementation of Traveller policy highlighted significant hurdles facing the effective implementation of Traveller accommodation and the actions required to address it, taking account also of the recommendations of the Government-commissioned expert group report on Traveller accommodation. It highlighted implementation obstacles including: racial bias ingrained and resulting in local resistance rooted in racial prejudice; insufficient data which hampers evidence-based planning, monitoring, and delivery of accommodation; land accessibility and affordability; inadequate needs assessment characterised by inaccuracies in identifying current and projected needs and limited consultation with our community; limited incentives and accountability mechanisms within local authorities leading to a lack of urgency in delivering accommodation outputs, exacerbated by the absence of penalties for underperformance; and staffing shortages in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to oversee and drive policy implementation effectively and oversight limitations in local oversight structures with insufficient powers and resources.

Despite the existence of five Traveller accommodation plans over 26 years, the current situation starkly differs from the intended goals, underscoring the pressing need for comprehensive reform and renewed commitment to address systemic challenges.

In the protection of human rights, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission equality review of local authorities delivering Traveller accommodation strengthened the focus and pathway to overcoming obstacles. It is imperative on local authorities to fulfil their responsibilities in addressing Traveller homelessness and accommodation needs. Our community experiences are echoed in the magnitude of suffering and neglect, expressed as feelings of abandonment and worthlessness. Travellers face eviction, barriers to education and exacerbated mental health challenges due to their living conditions. The ongoing violation of Traveller rights is highlighted often by international bodies. Last month, the European Committee of Social Rights required urgent action by the State, which has remained in violation eight years on.

Many specific recommendations outlined in the Oireachtas committee report on Travellers must be swiftly implemented now. We urge the Minister of State with responsibility for Traveller accommodation, Deputy Dillon, to ensure pace is accelerated, especially in the following areas: the establishment of a national Traveller accommodation authority to oversee accommodation policies and intervene when local authorities fail to provide adequate housing, with progress on this front remaining a significant concern; the implementation of an ethnic identifier on social housing applications, as proposed by both the committee and the expert review on Traveller accommodation but yet to be achieved, to allow for better monitoring of housing needs and planning; conducting an urgent audit of living conditions in all Traveller-specific accommodation and halting sites to address deficiencies highlighted in reports, a matter on which action is imperative yet no national audit has been conducted; and, crucially, repeal of trespass legislation concerning publicly owned land until a new network of transient sites is established. Although the Department of Justice has acknowledged the latter request, there has been no definitive decision on actions.

In conclusion, we cannot ignore the plight of our people. It is time for change and to rectify the grave human rights violations our community faces. Our children deserve better and it is incumbent on us today to ensure their right to a safe and dignified living environment is upheld.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Joyce. I call Ms Nora Corcoran from the Galway Traveller Movement.

Ms Nora Corcoran:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to speak here on Traveller accommodation this morning.

In the words of the special rapporteur on the right to adequate housing, we must recognise homelessness as more than a lack of shelter. It is an affront to human dignity, a barrier to social integration and a direct challenge to the right to life itself. Such a condition starkly contravenes the essential right to housing and precipitates a cascade of human rights violations, encompassing the rights to non-discrimination, health, clean water, sanitation, personal security and protection from cruel and inhumane treatment.

Local authorities currently have responsibility for compiling homelessness statistics through the pathway accommodation and support system, PASS, a framework that achieved nationwide implementation in 2013. However, it is crucial to acknowledge that these figures fail to account for the hidden homeless, that is, those resorting to couch surfing, overcrowded accommodation or living in trailers.

A national audit or assessment of the needs relating to Traveller homelessness is non-existent. Homeless services and agencies do not collect data on Travellers. This is a significant oversight. Local authorities have the responsibility to develop homelessness action plans that encompass the needs of all homeless populations, including Travellers. However, an audit of local authority Traveller accommodation programmes between 2014 and 2019 indicated that only a select few local authorities gather data for those in emergency or homeless situations and, alarmingly, 12 of 31 did not record any data, often shifting this duty onto homeless services. The lack of accurate data collection is a critical barrier in understanding the full scale of the issue and formulating effective solutions.

With this in mind, under recommendation 83 of the final report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community, the implementation of the European typology of homelessness and housing exclusion, ETHOS, in Ireland is crucial for a detailed understanding of homelessness. It will ensure the living conditions of the Traveller community are fully recognised and addressed. This framework can guide the development of policies that acknowledge and tackle all aspects of homelessness, providing a more inclusive and effective approach to this pressing issue.

The plight of the Traveller community in Ireland on a local, regional and national level is particularly acute as it is disproportionately affected by homelessness. On a local level, Travellers in Galway represent up to 50%, if not more, of homeless. It is important to highlight the lived experiences of our community, who have to endure sustained and inhumane living conditions. In recent testimony, Mary Delaney, who is living on the Carrobrowne temporary halting site in Galway, which is situated beside the local waste facility and enclosed dump, stated:

Living here in the site has affected not only the adults physical and mental health, but also our children’s physical and mental health. Watching them growing up here is terrible that this site is all my children know. Christmas day last year was ruined for a few families due to a power cut, we had no Christmas dinner and it was absolutely freezing in our mobile homes. Young boys and girls having to deal with the lack of privacy growing up is impacting them in so many ways.

The Covid-19 pandemic exacerbated the hardships for all families in halting sites and overcrowded conditions, with many facing severe challenges due to overcrowding, insufficient isolation space and the absence of basic amenities such as hot water, which is a fundamental necessity for maintaining hygiene and health during such a crisis. With the advent of Covid-19, the Government empowered local authorities to provide necessary support to vulnerable Traveller families requiring suitable accommodation to shield them from the virus. In County Galway, roadside families received only portaloos and a water source from local authorities. The Galway Traveller Movement and other local projects, in robust collaboration with the Health Service Executive, orchestrated comprehensive services, including food and personal protective equipment for families who contracted the virus. These families, crammed into trailers, mobile homes and overcrowded housing, were unable to adhere to HSE guidelines due to the lack of space for social distancing, handwashing or isolation. During the pandemic’s peak, more than 1,000 families from the Traveller community in Galway city and county were affected, with nearly one third of them being admitted to ICU. This highlighted the severe impact of overcrowding and poor living conditions during a health emergency. These figures sadly reflect the plight of many Travellers all over Ireland. The spread of Covid-19 among the Traveller community in Galway underscored the dire health consequences and the deep-seated systemic issues related to housing, social welfare and healthcare access.

The pandemic, however, did not create the dire circumstances that the Traveller community faces in its quest for safety. Rather, it cast a glaring light on the existing humanitarian crisis, the stark living conditions and deep-seated inequalities our community endures, which highlight a distressing reality - there is no safe, secure place to call home. This unacceptable situation has reached a critical point where makeshift solutions are no longer viable. The mere provision of a water tank or a portable toilet falls woefully short of what is adequate.

Compounding this issue, pilot projects like the caravan loan scheme are critically failing to meet their objectives, with significant practical barriers drastically undermining their effectiveness. Families in Galway encounter substantial difficulties in accessing the scheme. Those who manage to obtain a mobile home are compelled to place it in halting sites that are grossly inadequate, lacking essential utilities like plumbing and electricity. This not only impedes their quality of life, but also presents serious safety risks, including the peril of improper electrical connections that could potentially lead to catastrophic fires.

In light of these challenges, the Genio-funded pilot programme aims to address the healthcare needs of Traveller women who are homeless or at risk of homelessness. This programme, however, should not be viewed as a temporary fix but, rather, as the beginning of a sustained effort. It is essential for the Department of housing to follow on with this programme and such initiatives. The creation of local Traveller homelessness task forces and a central Traveller strategy is imperative. These entities must tackle immediate needs while also strategising for long-term solutions, especially considering intersectional issues to ensure a meaningful and lasting impact on the lives of Traveller women and their families, moving beyond the cycle of temporary fixes to a future where dignity and safety are a given.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Corcoran. I invite Ms O'Donoghue to make her statement.

Ms Breda O'Donoghue:

I thank the Chair for the invitation here today. I will speak a little on the STAR education pilot programme. The Traveller Visibility Group, TVG, has hosted one of these pilots since November 2019. Initially Cork was not one of the assigned STAR locations but when one project opted out of the programme a space became available and so TVG took on the education pilot programme six months after the rest of the national STAR programmes had started. Our Traveller and Roma education workers were hired in January 2020 and began working with the schools and meeting the students and families but this work was stopped short in March 2020, just two months in, at the outbreak of Covid-19 and the following lockdown restrictions.

In some ways the extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 helped to develop working relationships with the schools as our education workers were able to keep a connection with the Traveller and Roma students and their families by arranging socially distanced meetings near their homes. It became evident very quickly that the remote learning set-up to aid online classrooms was not accessible or a realistic option for many of the STAR students. The main issues were that many of the families did not own a laptop or computer, many did not have Wi-Fi except their mobile phones, language barriers of parents meant that some could not always assist their children with school work queries while the appalling overcrowded living conditions of many Traveller and Roma families meant that it was very difficult to find space to listen and learn quietly. Our STAR education workers were able to relay this information, highlight the challenges and request hard copies of school work to be printed for the students that required this approach. Without the intervention of the STAR education workers we feel that these students would have fallen through the cracks. Our education workers were also able to source Internet dongles, tablets and laptops for families that required this through their participation in the STAR project. The practical and cultural awareness of the education workers became evident to the schools in many cases. This helped build a good working relationship and understanding between the two in some circumstances.

Once in-school clusters and other Covid-19 interventions were in place our education workers tried to stay in touch with the students. However some schools' Covid-19 policies restricted access to non-school staff during this time. In some cases, these restrictions remained in place for much longer after the lockdown period. One challenge was that there were different systems in place for different schools and it was hard for the education workers to get a good working consistency across all the schools. The students who were not able to avail of STAR education workers support in school missed out. However work-around approaches such as meeting in homework clubs and after school activities were arranged.

After Covid-19 and the more hands-on support work dealing with the digital divide exposed by remote school work, the STAR team was keen to get back into schools to understand the students experience in school and to look at ways to improve education outcomes. However, as there was less clarity from STAR oversight committee and Department of Education regarding roles and expectations of day-to-day work, the experience of education workers was somewhat inconsistent across all the schools in STAR.

I will now outline some of the outcomes. The schools that are clearly engaged and are championing the STAR project are seeing significant benefits and development of outcomes of their Roma and Traveller students. Schools that have completed RCAT and TCAT have noted better understanding of their students. STAR students have had some excellent opportunities to gain more confidence in their own identity and their own abilities through external activities such as writing and designing a book with Kids' Own publishing which promoted the lived experience of the Roma and Traveller students today, creating rap songs with Music Generation and arranging visits to UCC, Dáil Éireann as well as meeting the Minister for Education. It was noted that after Covid-19 lockdowns there was greater retention of Traveller and Roma students in STAR schools than in schools without the project. Traveller and Roma students took part in the youth-led anti-racist summit in Cork and will continue to work towards Cork becoming the first anti-racist city in Ireland.

TVG staff have a better understanding of how the school system works and what many of the barriers impacting Traveller and Roma education can be. We would welcome further input from schools regarding barriers or challenges they find working with Roma and Traveller students, if any. This open back-and-forth dialogue has been harder to achieve under the current structure and time resources. Traveller and Roma families have found a benefit to the additional supports of STAR programme including the role of the designated HSLO and education workers. Better communication and interaction with schools has been noted at points.

Now I will turn to some of the challenges. Too many schools are included in the pilot programme. Education workers are spread too thin across the city with 14 schools included in the pilot. With only two education workers and one HSLO, we feel it reduces the impact of the work. We raised this issue in October and November 2019 at the planning stage of the project but we were told that there needed to be as many schools as possible to have a stronger reach.

Recruitment and retention of staff is very difficult due to the nature of the short-term contracts and the little notice given for contract extensions. After the first two-and-a-half to three years of the project TVG lost the original team members because staff required greater certainty about their career prospects. Since then, contracts have only been able to be offered for one year or, in some cases, less than that due to the lack of clarity on contract extensions and funding.

The opt-in or voluntary nature of STAR project means that there is mixed buy-in to the project from schools. Some feel that they have enough supports already and some feel that they do not want to lose any class time for students and it seemed that was not of value for some other stakeholders. This is an obstacle because it reduces the ability to build and develop new working models with the schools. The schools must be key stakeholders which have a strong sense of ownership in the project. We feel that it would be more suitable for STAR to concentrate on a smaller, select group of schools where the principals clearly want the additional support and have time and space to work actively on the project. At times we have felt that the involvement of some of the schools has been somewhat tokenistic which may come from a sense of having to sign up to STAR rather than wanting to. One school has never worked with STAR despite having signed up to the programme and others have pulled out of the project altogether.

The Garda vetting process for education workers has caused some delay in getting workers into schools. It is a requirement for each education worker to get Garda vetting clearance from each individual school, which involves a lot of paperwork and repetition. We are working with the STAR steering group to find workarounds for this and as with short contracts and recruiting requirements during school terms, we are sometimes delayed in getting our workers into the schools they are supporting.

Initially STAR was set up with little infrastructure, there was no real guidance on what education workers’ day-to-day role in schools would be and little support in developing working relationships with the school teams. Covid-19 was clearly an obstacle here, impacting the work of the STAR project for over two years. While TVG supports the recent recruitment of the co-ordinator and project manager of STAR NTRIS pilots, we should have had a similar role from the start of the programme.

Systemic racism and discrimination is clearly an issue in the school system yet it has been hard to have this named or openly spoken about in the STAR project. One of our Roma education workers, a Roma woman herself, noted the different forms of racism evident in schools and that Traveller students received different and harsher discrimination, or more overt discrimination than Roma students. Both Traveller and Roma students have noted that their culture and identity is not celebrated or recognised in the same way as the other cultures and races that make up the multicultural classrooms of Ireland today. Both Traveller and Roma students and their families have noted the ongoing low expectations from teachers towards their education outcomes. TCAT and RCAT has been offered to all schools in the STAR programme but sadly there has been very low uptake of this training in the schools.

Education workers have noted some more difficult or strained interactions with schools staff at points. Some school staff feel that STAR workers should be part of managing the discipline and behavioural issues of students, others seem ambivalent to the STAR project.

There is an unequal power dynamic at play, and Traveller and Roma staff in particular have noted a sense of intimidation from their own experiences of schools in the past when they work in schools. There can be a sense of nervousness when going into schools for some workers which can impact the work.

Supports for education workers, particularly those from the Traveller and Roma communities, need to be in place to ensure they settle well into the school dynamic. It is unclear how to raise a complaint or concern about issues of discrimination in schools. More guidance on this would be welcome.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms O'Donoghue. Before we call our next speaker, I welcome the young people with us in the Chamber. When we were discussing the day's events with the National Traveller Women's Forum and the other national organisations, including Exchange House Ireland National Travellers Service and Involve, we regarded it as crucial to have young people in the Chamber. All the young people here are a credit to our community. I hope they are inspired by the day. I know politics can be boring but I thank them for being here. I would also like to inspire in them the belief that any young person could be sitting here. They deserve to dream. I want to say this to the young people here today. I am looking over at one young man who was falling asleep once or twice. I would not blame him because when I was very young I did not love politics either. I hope people will be influenced by this experience and know that this is possible. I call Mr. James Stokes, a young Traveller activist.

Mr. James Stokes:

Go raibh maith agat. Tá mé an-sásta a bheith ag caint leis an gcoiste inniu. I am incredibly grateful for the opportunity to address the Seanad today.

Statistics paint a clear picture. Some 90% of Travellers report widespread mental health issues in the community, with a staggering 11% of Travellers dying by suicide. This is over seven times higher than the rate among the general population. Suicide has touched 82% of Travellers, with 44% experiencing it within their immediate or extended family. Additionally, 36% of Irish people admit to avoiding interaction with Travellers. This indicates a troubling level of discrimination. Shockingly, 97% of Irish people would not accept a Traveller as a member of their family, 80% would not accept a Traveller as a friend and 44% would not want Travellers to be members of their community. The gravity of the situation cannot be overstated. We are in a crisis right now. These statistics paint a devastating picture of despair and loss. Each statistic represents a life cut short, a family shattered and a community in mourning.

It is a stark reminder of the urgent need for action. We cannot afford to wait idly by, hoping the next tragedy will not touch our own doorstep. It is evident that successive Governments have failed to address the systemic challenges faced by Travellers. This is not a matter of political rhetoric but the grim reality of our times. Something needs to change. A national Traveller mental health strategy must be implemented now.

Allow me to share my story. My name is James Stokes. I am an 18-year-old Irish Traveller and I am running in local authority elections in Newbridge, County Kildare. I attended Scoil Mhuire for primary school and St. Conleth’s Community College for secondary school. Last June, I completed my leaving certificate examinations and I am now pursuing a degree in primary education at Maynooth University. Before he passed away, my grandfather was a respected local businessman who owned his own furniture shop. My uncle continues to run the family business, which sponsors a local football team. We are rooted in our community and we contribute positively. I have educated myself and secured employment as an education support peer worker. I have fulfilled what society expects of me. Despite my and my family's efforts, it is disheartening to see that prejudice against Travellers remains deeply entrenched.

Like everyone else in society, Travellers face the same challenges in our everyday lives. For example, I am a young person and I work a part-time job, as I said, and I am in education. Yet, housing is not an option for me in the near future. It is not an option for any of my friends. Rents are crazy high and the prospect of ever getting places of our own is like looking at a mirage. It is not just us. It feels like everyone across this island, Traveller or not, is feeling the pinch of the cost-of-living crisis. To be honest, there are so many issues that impact everyone, including Travellers, that must be addressed. We can start with better forward planning and by allocating necessary funds for Travellers, instead of continuously cutting funding. We need better future planning in relation to population growth in our communities. In Newbridge, for example, I am calling for the provision of additional Traveller-specific accommodation. Even if we got that right now, there would be no school places for those children and these new families would not have GP services. We need, therefore, to match our population growth with facilities.

I want the Ireland I live in now, and the Ireland that my children will live in, and I share this desire with my late grandfather, to be a united Ireland, with a functional government capable of addressing the issues of today, such as the Traveller mental health crisis, Travellers' rights as a whole, housing, education, climate change or whatever it may be. A united Ireland would be a fresh start and a chance for everyone on the island, Travellers, non-Travellers and everyone else, to come together to address the most critical challenges together with unity of purpose. I say this as a proud Irish Traveller and Irish republican. The Irish Government should establish a citizens' assembly on Irish unity as soon as possible to plan for a future where we will all be equal, including everyone in this room, a future where racism against Irish Travellers would be a thing of the past and not something that is so widely accepted.

I will end with this. I am grateful to have had the opportunity to speak here today about Travellers but the struggle against racism is not exclusive to those of us here as Irish Travellers. It is crucial that we recognise this fact and stand against all forms of racism at home and abroad. I strongly believe this includes the systemic oppression that Palestinian people face right now. Standing together in solidarity strengthens our collective voice, so we must offer our solidarity to the Palestinians currently struggling through a brutal racist genocide and advocate for justice and equality for all. The world we want needs to be a better one, so let us come together and make it one. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well done, James. All our thoughts are with the people in Palestine and Gaza. We express our solidarity to people in Gaza today. I call Latisha McCrudden, who is also a young Traveller activist. She is very welcome and I thank her for being here.

Ms Latisha McCrudden:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I am 19 years of age. I am among the 1% of Irish Travellers who go on to third level education and I have nearly completed my first year in my law degree. I believe I have done well for myself in my education journey so far, having got all As in my junior certificate, a distinction in my transition year programme and the points needed in my leaving certificate to study law in the University of Galway. I have engaged in a vast range of extracurricular activities, including the BT Young Scientist exhibition, Gaisce, SciFest, the climate ambassador programme of Ireland, green schools, the John Paul II award and the student council.

My school experience has not been as fulfilling and enjoyable as it should have been. As a Traveller girl in school, I found it a very lonely and isolating place the majority of the time. I have been subjected to isolation, bullying, racism and discrimination, with very few to no consequences for those who projected this experience upon me. Some examples include having derogatory terms said to me by fellow students, such as the K-word, with no consequences for their actions. I know that if this type of language was used against another minority group, there would be repercussions, as there should be, but the same respect is not given to Travellers. Throughout my 15 years of schooling so far, I have not once been taught about my Traveller heritage or culture. I did have to study a short story for my honours-level leaving certificate Irish class that projected Travellers in not a positive light. I have been isolated and left out in school due to the morals and values I have for myself and what has been instilled in me while growing up. As an Irish Traveller in the school sector, I found you had to have a large amount of willpower to keep going due to the way you are made to feel. This is not how it should be. Travellers should be supported, uplifted and encouraged to continue with schooling and to reduce the statistics of being a minority among a minority when they continue with education.

I live by the words of the late Martin Luther King: “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter”. Unfortunately, a lot of things that should matter in education for Travellers are not taking place. There are a vast number of barriers for Travellers in education that need to change now and not later.

These include the elimination of barriers as a whole in school practice by taking account of the need for pupils' cultural identity, language and values to be upheld and visible in the environment and not just be imaginary. Resources and supports need to be supplied at individual level to enable Traveller pupils to participate across school, transport, books, uniform, digital aids, additional teacher and after-school supports and access to assessment and early intervention where needs are identified. The incorporation of anti-racism training and a Traveller cultural plan for teachers is needed as part of continuing professional development, CPD, and at entry level. There also needs to be a time-lined action plan to deliver the curriculum components attached to the Traveller culture and history which were promised to us in 2020 by the Government. This needs to include teacher training for the delivery of those.

For Traveller children and young adults to continue in education, support and opportunities must become equal. Traveller youth should not feel fear and worry that if they go on to third level education and get a degree that they would be turned away from jobs due to their identity, which is happening currently in our society. Of the percentage of Travellers who are employed in Ireland currently, the vast majority are employed by Traveller organisations which does not encourage the younger generations of Travellers to continue in education.

Additional supports and opportunities must be put in place for current and upcoming generations of Travellers around reading and writing, as when Traveller children go home in the evening to do homework their parents may not be able to read or write to the level they deserve, due to the early drop-out rate for previous Traveller generations in education. This automatically puts children from a non-Traveller background at an advantage compared to Traveller children.

For a real change to come in the bullying, racism and discrimination that takes place against Travellers in school, our culture, heritage and traditions must be embedded into the school curriculum. There also needs to be consequences for derogatory terms that are used in schools against Travellers, such as the K-word, "tinker" and "pikey", as these are not words that should be said to children and young adults without repercussions for those who use this racist and discriminatory language.

For generations, society has viewed Travellers as one, and not as the separate individuals we are. Our heritage, culture and traditions could add a lot to society if people wanted to learn who we are as people, but instead they discriminate, isolate and judge, even if they have had no encounters with Travellers. Traveller children want to feel valued and respected and be in a fair environment, something that should come automatically. Travellers want to go on and become members of An Garda Síochána, solicitors, doctors, nurses, vets, Senators and youth workers, just like many of us already have. We have been changing as a community and progressing over time and it is now time for society as a whole to change and progress with us so that Travellers are just as much a part of society as everyone else is. Traveller youth are just as much the present and the future of this country as the rest of Ireland’s youth, but the Government and society need to realise, acknowledge and support this sooner rather than later.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will say something before we call on our next speaker, Ms Gabi Muntean, from Pavee Point. She is a Roma worker in Pavee Point and a Roma woman in her own right. When we were discussing this event with the national organisations, Thomas McCann rightly said, that we fought for years for platforms and to get in with other minority groups. As a minority group, which at a European level has little or no justice or rights, we are sharing our platform today with the Roma community because together, with other minority groups, we are stronger. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I hope that the Traveller committee will work more closely going forward with the Roma community and that we will have better quality outcomes with and for the Roma community.

Today, Ms Muntean is breaking down barriers by being the first Roma woman to speak in the Houses of the Oireachtas. What incredible change we are all part of today. Only together, as the "others" in society, can we bring about a better quality of change. You cannot have or fight for equality for one community if you do not want it for all communities. Ms Muntean is very welcome. The floor is hers.

Ms Gabi Muntean:

I am a Roma woman and community development worker with Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre. I am delighted to get the chance to speak in the Seanad today. I am joined by Traveller colleagues from around the country. I also acknowledge the work of Senator Eileen Flynn who has stood in solidarity with the Roma community and other marginalised and minority ethnic groups, particularly when it has not been popular.

It is important from the beginning to note that the term "Roma" at a European level is an umbrella term which includes several diverse groups, including Roma, Sinti, Kale and Travellers. As Europe’s largest minority, there is an estimated 10 to 12 million Roma living in Europe. In Ireland, while we acknowledge the shared history of nomadism, racism and discrimination among Travellers and Roma, we also recognise the distinct situation, identity and experiences of both communities. Roma are a small minority in Ireland, with approximately 16,000 Roma living in the country according to the last census. Roma have been living in Ireland since the 1990s and we are living in every part of the country. The Roma community in Ireland is diverse, with a range of nationalities including Polish, Czech, French, German and Romanian Roma. There are also many second generation Roma in Ireland who were born and raised here, who have Irish nationality and are proud to be Irish and Roma.

Today, I hope to give some insight into issues affecting my community. Although we are a small minority, Roma are often targeted with a significant amount of discrimination and racism. For example, Roma were one of the groups targeted by the far right on social media after the riots in Dublin in November 2023 to stir up hatred and racism. This was a difficult time for Roma in Dublin and elsewhere, especially Roma women, many of whom were afraid to go out on the streets for weeks after those frightening events. Roma are also often the target of racist online speech. Hate speech against Roma can be extreme with death threats against Roma, references to extermination and shocking verbal abuse. This is why we are very concerned that the current hate crime and hate speech Bill complete its course through the Seanad as soon as possible.

My community should not have to suffer fear because of our ethnic group. We need to say, as a society, that extreme hate speech is wrong and people need to be held to account for this. This year, we will commemorate the 80th anniversary of the Roma genocide when more than 500,000 Roma and Sinti were murdered at the hands of the Nazis. This is something we can never forget and, in the current climate, it is a stark reminder of the dangers of racism.

While we welcome the Government’s recent action plan on racism, implementation of this plan is key. There is no point in having well-written plans if there is no follow through. That means resources need to be identified and invested and that there are targets and a monitoring framework. The State also needs to make sure that Traveller organisations and groups working with Roma are directly involved in the implementation of the plan.

The Roma needs assessment in 2018 highlighted some of the key issues impacting on Roma in Ireland. It was found that some Roma are unable to access social protection, including child benefit payments, even after having lived in the country for several years.

A key barrier in this context is the habitual residence condition. In this day and age, we should not have Roma families not being able to access the most basic social protection payments. Payments to parents of all children in the State should be the most basic starting point. We recommend adoption of special measures for Roma families living in the State to progress the rights of Travellers and Roma. This is a humanitarian issue on our own doorstep.

The Roma needs assessment carried out in 2018 showed the high levels of discrimination in accommodation. I was part of this study and I was shocked at some of the living conditions of Roma families. Of the families surveyed, 12% had no kitchen and 13% had no fridge. Homelessness and overcrowding is a big issue. Sometimes two or three generations are living in the same house, with under half of respondents saying they did not have enough beds in their accommodation. People are living in abandoned houses and unsafe abandoned factories.

Health is another area impacted by discrimination, with many Roma not able to access a medical card. Maternal health is another area where work needs to be done, with 24% of Roma households saying that women did not have access to a doctor or hospital while pregnant. While we acknowledge some positive work in this area by the HSE, including resourcing of posts for Roma health, there is a need for a nationally co-ordinated approach to this work with additional investment in Roma infrastructure underpinned by community work.

The Roma needs assessment found Roma unemployment to run at a shocking 83%. To find work, Roma are being forced into low-level precarious work situations. This is what Pavee Point found in its Roma unemployment study in 2023. For many Roma who are working, there is fear of discrimination so they hide their identity. We need increased employment, training and apprenticeship opportunities for Roma.

Roma are active participants in their own communities and wider society. Roma children are engaging in education and going on to third level education and this is really positive. However, many of them are hiding their identity because of fear of discrimination. We welcome the recent developments on the Traveller and Roma education strategy. We hope this work will conclude and that a strategy will be in place with the resources and structures required for implementation. The strategy will not be a magic wand but we hope it will work towards bringing about changes and positive outcomes for Travellers and Roma.

Roma have also been engaging with the State regarding the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy. The new strategy being developed is now long overdue. Implementation of this strategy is key. While there were 145 worthwhile actions in the previous plan, implementation was poor. We need to see Roma involved in the implementation of this strategy and in the design and delivery of actions. It also needs to be resourced and have a strong monitoring framework.

Covid brought together agencies to address the public health issues impacting on Roma during Covid. This was a step forward and we began to see some real progress. However, this momentum was not kept up following Covid. We need the new NTRIS to deliver a whole-of-government approach that can bring about real change on the ground.

In the meantime, Roma in Ireland continue to celebrate and share our ethnicity and cultural identity. Many Roma are involved in music and dance and we are proud of our different languages spoken across the community. We stand in solidarity with Travellers and celebrate International Traveller and Roma Day on 8 April, sharing the diversity and resilience and continuing to push forward for a better future for our communities.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a striking reminder of the hatred that exists in this country today for Travellers and Roma people, but also for other ethnic minority groups. I will be speaking in my speech later on this evening about the need for good hate-crime legislation. That legilsation is already there; we just need to pass it. I now call on Pa Reilly.

Mr. Patrick Reilly:

On behalf of Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre, I warmly welcome the opportunity to speak today on this historic day when Travellers take the floor in the Seanad Chamber. We acknowledge Senator Flynn for her leadership to date on promoting Traveller and Roma rights, particularly in the Seanad and through her work on the Oireachtas joint committee.

Given the limited time and the complexities of the issues we wish to highlight, we will focus on key issues and recommendations as related to Traveller health. Nearly 40 years since Pavee Point was established, we have always undertaken a social determinants approach to health, with the need to ensure both targeting and mainstreaming of Travellers in policy and service provision.

We know that 90% of what affects a person’s health happens outside of the medical system. That means living conditions, poverty, employment, educational attainment, racism and discrimination all affect Travellers' health outcomes. Travellers' health is affected by Travellers not getting jobs, not being supported in school and living in bad conditions, with no services. If we are to realistically address Traveller health inequalities, other Departments have to also address the determinants.

Next year will mark 15 years since the publication of the very comprehensive All Ireland Traveller Health Study, which took three and a half years to complete, cost the taxpayer €1.3 million and involved a significant amount of work between Traveller organisations, Traveller researchers and researchers in UCD. This study had an 80% participation rate, which is unheard of, particularly with a so-called hard-to-reach group. The study showed that Travellers have one of the lowest life expectancies of any other minority ethnic group in Ireland. The overall Traveller life expectancy is 66 years. This is 15 years less for Traveller men and 12 years less for Traveller women. Infant mortality is almost four times higher than the national rate and Traveller mortality is three and a half times higher. Traveller suicide is seven times higher and accounts for 11% of Traveller deaths. The study found that only eight Travellers were over the age of 80 years.

The study also showed that systemic racism exists within the health services. Less than half of all Travellers had complete trust in healthcare professionals compared with the trust level found in the general population. More than half of Travellers were concerned about the quality of care they received when engaging with health services. Some 40% of Travellers reported discrimination in accessing health services and this finding was supported by the almost seven out of ten service providers who agreed that their services discriminated against Travellers. We know from the study that Travellers are dying of the same causes as the general population, not of some rare or exotic diseases. We are talking about cancer, CVD and respiratory issues, but in far greater numbers. What does that tell you? Travellers are not getting access to timely or quality care and, as a result, we are dying.

While the All Ireland Traveller Health Study was published in 2010, its findings have been endorsed by a number of State surveys and research reports, including recent census research and research conducted by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights in 2019. Traveller organisations do not need another All Ireland Traveller Health Study to tell us what we know - that Traveller health status is poor. What we need is the State to use this evidence to prioritise and resource Traveller health so that we can have better outcomes.

We also need evidence from the State through ethnic data to show where the gaps are and where things are working well.

In 2022 after years of lobbying, the HSE published a long-awaited national Traveller health action plan. It was welcomed by Travellers and Traveller organisations, particularly for the fact that it had an accompanying budget and monitoring structure, the first time since 2008 that Traveller health has received additional core funding. If fully implemented, the plan has the potential to address key concerns relating to Traveller health. However, there is an urgent need for new core funding to implement the plan. Traveller organisations and primary health care projects cannot realistically be expected to deliver on these actions with once-off funding and without any additional core funding. Traveller community health workers, mostly Traveller women, employed by these projects, are working on the minimum wage, for 12 hours a week and expected to deliver on a range of actions while also responding to emerging issues on the ground. These workers are living and working within the community and work far beyond the 12 hours for which they are paid. We are seeing good workers leave the sector as a result and there is an urgent need to address this. These projects, which have been in existence for almost 30 years and operating throughout the country, are recognised as the cornerstone of which health services are delivered effectively to Travellers. In fact, the vast majority, some 86% of Travellers, report accessing health information from the primary healthcare Traveller projects. These projects need to be valued and strengthened so that this vital work can continue and be sustained in the future.

We saw through Covid-19 what can be achieved when there is political will and cross-departmental work and partnership. Travellers and Traveller organisations effectively saved Travellers’ lives during

this time and there was goodwill, support and collaboration from colleagues in the HSE and other Departments in working with us. We need to continue this approach moving forward. Where there is a will there is a way.

Despite these challenges, we remain hopeful that we can work together to address the issues I have spoken about. Traveller organisations are ready, willing and able. The Seanad has an important role

to play in showing leadership and ensuring that those who are marginalised have a voice. We hope from today that the Traveller voice from this Chamber will be stronger and can affect real change on the ground. It is in this context that we recommend: fully implementing the recommendations in the Final Report of the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community; fully implementing and resourcing the national Traveller health action plan; ensuring Traveller health is prioritised within the Department of Health and a whole-of-department approach to addressing Traveller health inequalities. We also recommend that the Traveller-specific health infrastructure, including Traveller health units and Traveller primary health care projects, should be protected and receive increased resources for their

expansion and development in line with the national Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy under action 76; and that ethnic equality monitoring be implemented across all routine administrative data collection

systems to support the development of health indicators to monitor Traveller and Roma access, participation and outcomes in health.

I want to end on some positive news regarding a colleague of ours, Missie Collins. In recognition of her trailblazing work and decades-long track record in addressing Traveller rights and equality, specifically in the area of Traveller health, Missie Collins will be awarded an honorary degree of doctor of science by University College Dublin in September 2024. This is a significant achievement for Missie. It is also an important acknowledgement of the work of Pavee Point and all the Traveller primary healthcare workers, including those who are no longer with us, in their work to advance Traveller rights. We congratulate Missie Collins. From September onwards, she will be knows as Dr. Missie Collins.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I congratulate Missie Collins. She is an absolutely remarkable woman whom we have all known over the years with Pavee Point. We also know her work and her honesty. We are getting more doctors in the community which is absolutely brilliant. I am looking down at Thomas McCann when I say that.

I now call on Maria Joyce, who loves public speaking.

Ms Maria Joyce:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the invitation to speak here today but also for these issues to be raised on the floor of the Seanad as well, which is important.

I want to also add my support to the fact that a Roma woman is speaking today. On the one hand, it is historic, but it truly reflects the lack of diversity across the body politic both in the Seanad and in the Dáil that is long overdue rectification. I also commend the two young speakers, James Stokes and Latisha McCrudden, for sharing their experiences. They represent so much that is positive about so many of our young people but it is sad to still be hearing of the obstacles they have to overcome and the issues they have to address to have an absolute right to education and a right and entitlement to the other things that are afforded to all our young people in Ireland, which are still being denied to young Travellers.

It is close to two and a half years since the publication of the final report of the previous joint committee, which contained 84 recommendations across health, education, employment and accommodation. It would be interesting to run the rule over those 84 recommendations to assess progress in implementation. There might be a few areas showing some signs of promise, but no honours grades would be handed out. Two and a half years will not seem like a long time for policymakers but it is a very long time when you are living in homeless accommodation. It is a long time when you are trying to keep your child in school and they are crying on an ongoing basis that they cannot stick the bullying and the othering. It is a very long time when you are living in poverty and trying to support your family and you cannot get work because of your surname or your address. Two and a half years feels like a lifetime when you are mourning the loss of a loved one through suicide, which too many Travellers so often are, with suicide rates for Travellers six and seven times the national average as has been referenced earlier.

With regard to education, there continues to be a stark inequality of access to participation in, and outcomes from, education for Travellers. Just 13.3% of Traveller women and girls are educated to leaving certificate level or above, compared with 69.1% of the general population. Less than 1% of Travellers are in third-level education, with only 167 adult Travellers having a third level qualification. Ann Friel spoke earlier about Covid-19 and what STAR could do to help in supporting Traveller children and their parents during that Covid period, and their engagement with the school. This is so important and highlights the need for really targeted supports and measures. For many Travellers around the country - and unfortunately the STAR pilot is only in four locations - school closures caused by the Covid-19 pandemic posed a really challenging disruption for Travellers and deepened their educational disadvantage. The move to remote learning relied entirely on having IT equipment, stable Wi-Fi and a quiet place to work, things many Traveller families simply do not have access to, particularly those in overcrowded living conditions, poor accommodation and in homeless settings. They just were not able to do it. It is important to acknowledge as well that Covid-19 did not create the onset of issues impacting on Travellers in education but they have added to particular difficulties when it comes to transfer rates from primary to second level. We have seen Traveller children drop out at primary school as a result of Covid and not go back. These transfer rates also impact on the ongoing transfer rates into third level.

Currently, we have the ongoing development of the national Traveller and Roma education strategy, which is a welcome development. We have an action plan on bullying, which was launched in 2022, and the national access plan, which sets targets for Travellers in higher education. Setting targets and putting in resources is critical in creating a critical mass of Travellers in education.

We also have the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, 2023 Traveller culture and history research report. It is very badly needed when we listen to what Latisha McCrudden was talking about, having gone through the whole system, as many of us have here. There are still young Travellers going through a system that does not have them reflected in the curriculum. This is really critical.

The forthcoming national Traveller and Roma education strategy must include a robust implementation and monitoring framework and resources to address the systemic disadvantage of Travellers at all educational levels. The work which has begun on the use of ethnic data in education must be built upon, shared and inform what needs to happen next.

Consultation with the Traveller and Roma community is under way across a range of strands for the new strategy. We have attended a number of the sessions and listening to the contributions from Traveller parents has been a stark reminder, if one was needed, of the racism and bullying still experienced by Traveller children in Irish schools and underlines the urgent need for schools to rethink how they support diversity and cater to the needs of all young people in their schools. I would go a little bit further than that to say that the schools need to do their job. They need to deliver on national policy to ensure better impacts and outcomes for Traveller children from the education system.

I will talk a little bit about justice and then political representation, given the space we are in this morning. Although Travellers account for 0.6 % of the Irish population, Travellers make up 22% of the female prison population and 15% of the male prison population. Those figures are from the limited data we have. Although an ethnic identifier has been introduced in the prison system, we still know that, at times, that is an under-representation of the number of Travellers who are in prison. At times, up to a fifth of young people in custody at Oberstown Children Detention Campus have been Travellers. In 2017, the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, CEDAW, recommended that the State address the root causes of the over-representation of Traveller women in places of deprivation of liberty and address prison condition standards. That recommendation was issued seven years ago but there has not been the progress we need in that space. The State must address the factors contributing to Travellers’ over-representation in prison, particularly Traveller women, and introduce alternative community-based responses for those who have committed non-violent poverty-related offences.

A key contributing factor is the level of racism and racial profiling across the criminal justice system, including policing, probation and the courts. Systemic, cultural and attitudinal changes are needed to address this. Although access to justice is a fundamental human right, Travellers are frequently denied it. This has to change. Travellers’ voices must be heard, their rights exercised and decision-makers held accountable in the justice process, which is not currently happening.

Given that we are gathered here in the Seanad Chamber today, I will use this opportunity to speak about the lack of representation of Traveller and Roma women in Irish politics. Few communities in Ireland have been as negatively impacted or affected by political decisions and indecision as the Traveller community, yet we remain largely invisible within the political establishment. This cuts across all areas of policy, be it health, mental health, accommodation, education or employment. Traveller women have a strong history of leadership and advocacy in community development spaces and their engagement in public and political life stretches back many decades. The most significant development in recent years was the appointment of Senator Eileen Flynn in 2020 as the first, and to date only, Traveller to serve in one of the Houses of the Oireachtas. This has to change. There has to be more opportunities and routes into the political system.

In 2022, the NTWF commissioned Professor Pauline Cullen and Shane Gough of Maynooth University to prepare an account of how Traveller, Roma and other ethnic minority and migrant women engage with and experience local politics in Ireland. We wanted to provide an evidence base for the systemic changes that are required to be taken by political parties, local authorities, the Electoral Commission and the State if Traveller and other ethnic minority women are to access political life in a meaningful way. These asks are not rocket science and this is not the first time some of them have been identified. Our asks include the creation of a nationwide special electoral district for national representation and county-wide special electoral districts for local representation of Travellers, with gender parity. There is a need for the incorporation of nested ethnic quotas into existing gender quotas, specifically naming Traveller and Roma women as political candidates at national level, and the introduction of a similar quota system at local level. If we want real change in the political space and across all other areas of policy, clear resources will be needed and targeted measures must be implemented. We are calling for the creation of a Seanad panel for minority communities, including Travellers and Roma, with the establishment of reserved seats in the Seanad and the Dáil for Travellers and other ethnic groups, as well as targeted actions to support Traveller women who are interested in running for election.

I want to finish by emphasising the lack of implementation across all Traveller policy. It is an issue hiding in plain sight. Bureaucratic delays and Government inaction must come to an end if there are to be any real changes in the lived lives of Travellers.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Joyce. Before we move to our next speaker, I welcome all of the politicians here. I especially welcome the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, the leader of the Green Party, who has been a great support to me here in the Houses of the Oireachtas, even when I was looking for the seat, lobbying him and campaigning. I mean that with all my heart. He has been absolutely brilliant. The Minister is very welcome and I thank him for all his support.

I now call Maureen Ward to speak, please.

Ms Maureen Ward:

Cathaoirleach, Senators and fellow Travellers and Roma community members, I am a proud Irish Traveller woman. I hold the position of interim co-ordinator with Minceirs Whiden. I am honoured to have been invited by the Cathaoirleach to address the committee on the issue of racism and discrimination against Irish Travellers.

I would like to begin my address by stating that, as a Traveller and someone who has spent many years on the front lines as a human rights activist, I believe the general attitude of Irish society towards Travellers is much better today than it was in the past. While that is a welcome development, however, all of us here today can recognise that there is still much more to be done. We still live in a society where many Travellers feel the need to conceal their identity from employers, teachers, friends and even spouses because they fear the repercussions of revealing their heritage.

This fear is certainly a legitimate one to hold. We are all aware by now of the role that racist bullying played in the suicide of young Patrick McDonagh, may he rest in peace, the young 12-year-old Traveller whose heartbreaking story was the focus of a documentary aired on RTÉ 1 early this year or late last year. That groundbreaking documentary successfully touched the hearts of thousands of people in Ireland, granting many, perhaps for the first time, an inside look into our community’s struggle against racism and discrimination. However, the sad reality is that derogatory slurs against Travellers are still openly used by people today and we have even seen cases of businesses refusing service to Travellers. This should not be acceptable in the 21st century. The Traveller community has been subjected to marginalisation, stereotypes, and injustices through many years.

Our unique cultural heritage, traditions and way of life are still too often met with disdain, misunderstanding, and sometimes even outright hostility. Discrimination has historically resulted in unequal access to accommodation, healthcare, education and employment opportunities. While progress has been made, the harsh reality is that many Travellers continue to face barriers and prejudice that deny us the dignity and equality we deserve as fellow citizens of the State. Nevertheless, amid these challenges, I remain steadfast in my belief in a brighter future where every individual, regardless of background, is afforded the respect and dignity they deserve, and we do deserve it. As we all gather today in this great hall of democracy, I believe it is necessary to acknowledge that the fight against racism and discrimination is work that must be done by everyone. Everybody, not just Travellers, needs to be part of it. It is work that requires collective effort and determination from all members of Irish society.

As a proud member of the Traveller community, I call on the committee, as legislators, to uphold the foundational principles of equality that are key to the Irish State and to enact laws that protect the rights and dignity of all individuals, regardless of their ethnicity, culture or social status. Legislative measures alone are not enough. We must also work tirelessly to challenge the prejudices and stereotypes that fuel racism and discrimination in our society. This requires fostering greater understanding, empathy, and respect for the diversity of human experiences, including the rich cultural heritage and traditions of the Traveller community. It also demands meaningful engagement and partnership with Traveller organisations and community leaders, who are best placed to articulate our community’s needs, aspirations, and solutions.

Before I finish I acknowledge and thank Minceirs Whiden’s national development worker, John Boyle, for helping me put this together so I would not go off on a tangent giving out about anyone. In closing, let us remember the fight against racism and discrimination is not a sprint but a marathon, one that requires courage, determination and solidarity between Travellers and settled people. It is a journey we must embark on together, as individuals, as communities and as a nation. It is a journey that we cannot afford to abandon until every person, regardless of their background or identity, can live free from fear, prejudice and discrimination. I thank the Cathaoirleach, Senator, Deputies and fellow Travellers and Roma community present for listening patiently to me. I am glad I did not go too much off topic.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Oein has kindly agreed he will go first in the next round because it is really important we give politicians and members of the committee the opportunity to come in before lunch. I thank all the politicians here, from Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the Greens and Labour. I have good relationships on the committee and their hearts are in the right place for change. I see my two colleagues, who are not part of the committee but are very passionate about Traveller rights, Senators Ward and Clonan. They are very welcome. Deputy Wynne is also very welcome. It is great to see the representation of Senators and TDs.

We will open the floor to them and start with our very new Senator. I have forgotten his name. It is Senator Mal O'Hara from the Greens. He is very welcome and I look forward to working with him in future. He is fairly new, so it is okay I forgot his name.

Mal O'Hara (Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, be nice. This is the end of my second week.

I thank the groups and thank the Cathaoirleach for her continued leadership on these issues. I am here to listen and I have listened a lot. I need to go to Belfast and I did say so. This is not a Dublin accent. There are a couple of points I wish to pick up on.

Somebody said about politics that you cannot be what you cannot see or hear and Senator Flynn sitting in that Chair - it suits her - sends a really strong message to Traveller and Roma communities that they can have a position in politics. I take the challenge about parties needing to do much better to make sure we work hard. It is not just about saying that people should come and join us. We need to look at our structures, at reserved lists and at realising this mad idea that representative democracy should look like the society it represents. That includes Travellers, Roma and other minority communities.

A friend of mine once said, "If you don't do politics, politics gets done to you". The Cathaoirleach's community knows that because of inaction, poor governance, inequality, etc. I want to say I am an other, I am queer, I am working class, I am Northern. I am not a nationalist or a unionist; I am one of those "others". People need to sell to me if they want to change this island. I have said from day one I want to be a Senator for all, and that is all communities. In the North, my experience is we have failed the Travelling community there. One of the big failures is we have an ethnic minority development fund worth £1 million a year. That sounds great. It is for Traveller, Roma and minority ethnic communities. However, it is not ring-fenced and which organisations successfully secured that money? Settled people organisations and white people-led organisations. The real way of addressing the inequalities experienced by minority communities is if their organisations are funded and resourced and led by them to make the change. It really infuriates me when I hear, "Hard to reach". That means easy to ignore. I am a queer activist. I worked with Traveller groups in the North. Unfortunately, An Munia Tober is gone. The Northern Ireland Council for Ethnic Minorities, an umbrella organisation advocating for those communities' needs, is gone. That is in part because of that decision not to ring-fence money for those organisations. My background is in mental health and well-being. I served on a couple of charitable boards on suicide prevention and mental health and when I worked professionally at the Rainbow Project I worked with Traveller organisations and black and minority ethnic organisations to lobby the Public Health Agency to create a distinct fund for mental health and well-being for minority groups. We wanted one for Travellers and one for black and minority ethnic people and one for LGBT people. The point is that would have funded those groups to do that work. Who is best placed to meet the needs of Travellers, but Travellers and Roma communities and their organisations?

The big point I hear being echoed today is that services are designed for settled people and not for everybody. That is the challenge. We need to make services more accessible. People have said, and rightly illuminated, the points here about education and invisibility in the curriculum. We mandate that kids have to be in school from the age of five to 16 years, but we do not make that service accessible for them. That is not good enough. It is about housing, employment, access to goods, facilities and services, health inequalities, lower life expectancy, funding and monitoring because you cannot see what you have not monitored so monitoring is really important. I really liked hearing about the disproportionate impact of Covid.

I am delighted to have listened. It may take some discussion, but I would love to be on this committee. I am not a formal member of this committee, but I want to say I am an ally and I look forward to working with you and on your behalf. Please put me in touch with Traveller organisations in the North. Thank you, a Chathaoirligh, and I thank everyone for coming today.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope, Senator, by working together we can work on some of those bridges North-South because to the best of my knowledge there is no Traveller organisation in the North, unfortunately, and some of the services that support the Traveller community are not well funded.

I call on our Vice Chairperson, who has worked with our community for years. I will then call Senator Ward. The Vice Chairperson has five minutes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. You will keep me to the five minutes. Keep smacht orm.

I welcome everyone here and thank them for the presentations, which were very useful. I also particularly recognise our Chair here. She has done a fantastic job as a Senator. She has been a great advocate not only for Travellers, but on many issues. She is also a great Chair of the Traveller committee within the Houses. Two things that happened have been important. One was the appointment by the Taoiseach of a Traveller to the Houses. The other was the setting up of a dedicated committee to deal with the challenges faced by the Traveller community. I am a long time in politics and the challenge in politics is that bringing change about is a slow business. Most of those present, as activists, have found that. No matter what level of government you are at, it is still a slow business, but over time when you look back you can achieve change, and everyone here has seen change in their lifetime.

We all just have to keep at it - all of the time - to try to ensure fair play and justice. One thing we all recognise is that every issue links in with another issue. For example, a number of witnesses have mentioned accommodation. If you do not live in good accommodation it affects your education, health and probably outcomes in relation to justice, etc. Therefore, that one issue is not just purely about a roof over your head, it is also about your whole lifestyle. I will give an example of where I find the system difficult. The issue of people living in poor quality trailers on Traveller halting sites is recognised and you would think it would be easy to resolve. I still cannot get my head around why this system keeps reviewing how the programmes are working when we know that €40,000 will only fund a second-hand trailer and that they are giving out an insufficient number of them to meet the requirement. Why are they not asking how many are needed and saying that they will provide them, which would be a very easy quick win? There is not a standard rental or repayment system. It goes on.

We have looked at this issue. The committee came very quickly to a view as to the changes we want but we have to try to persuade the system, which is very resistant to change, that we can wait no longer. I am only giving that as an example, because it is a very finite, simple issue that is not expensive to sort out once and for all so that all those who want to stay in trailers are entitled to live in a good quality trailer.

The same is true as we go across the various strands, such as education, where there are a lot of issues. We had a good session last week. The officials were very-----

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have the officials in the Gallery as well.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. They were very assistive. There are challenges but some progress is being made. A huge issue that we have not tackled to the extent that we would like is the justice system. As has been pointed out, if you go down to the Dóchas Centre you find there a disproportionate number of Travellers, most of whom are there because of poverty. They should not be there. What we really need to do is sort out the accommodation issues for the people there in order to sort out their lives. There are addiction issues, among others, that need to be sorted. We have a huge amount of work to do. We are not going to solve it all in this Dáil's term. We all recognise that, but l hope that when this Dáil's term is over, we leave it better than it was in the beginning.

I would also say to everyone here today that there are challenges for everybody getting into politics but there is one first step and that is to vote. There is no challenge in voting. In lots of constituencies, there are 1,000 or 2,000 Travellers. What would happen if they all voted? Nothing makes politicians sit up more than that kind of a block vote. I can guarantee the witnesses that is the case. I have seen that with other groups. When that vote is exercised, people do pay attention. I represent islands in my constituency and I am always amused at the amount of time politicians spend on the islands even though there are only 500 votes on the four islands in my constituency. There are a lot more Traveller votes. Therefore, they should start with that point and then aspire to politics and get involved either as Independents or with the political parties. I believe that Travellers can succeed. I am not saying it is going to be easy. We have got a duty, but the witnesses can make it a bit easier by wielding the power they have. We do need to look at other creative ways of ensuring proper Traveller representation, not only in the Oireachtas but in society in general.

I do not know if there is anybody here today from Rathkeale. I gave Rathkeale RAPID status due to the high level of deprivation, when I looked at the deprivation indices. There also happened to be a high number of Travellers in Rathkeale. The people of Rathkeale came to me and said they do not want Travellers on the area implementation team, AIT. Some people came to me. I am not saying that it was all the people of Rathkeale. I want to correct and withdraw that statement. Some people came to me and I said if that was their view I would accept it on the condition that it was the end of RAPID in Rathkeale. I said I would withdraw the offer. We do have huge challenges, but we are able to overcome them. This is an important day. It is all a credit to Senator Flynn.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Ó Cuív can come back in. Members can come back in, but I would like them to stick to the five minutes because we have lunch at 1 o'clock, which is really important as well for the young people in the Gallery who are bored out of their heads.

I now call Senator Ward. When I first came in, I was a little bit prejudiced. I thought: "Jesus, he does not like Travellers." It was just me being prejudiced. Senator Ward has proven me wrong on so many occasions, even when discussing the hate crime legislation I saw his passion for genuine equality in Irish society. Senator Ward is very welcome to the committee. The floor is his. He has five minutes.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. I will not take her five minutes.

First, I recognise the Cathaoirleach. It has been an honour to serve in the Seanad with her. She and I joined at the same time. In fact, notwithstanding her prejudice, I understand her family might have speculated about my status as a Traveller or otherwise with a name like "Ward", but I have had the privilege of working with her on lots of different issues.

I was delighted to hear some people saying that they have seen an improvement in attitudes towards Travellers and the treatment of Travellers. If that is the case, in the last four years, I think the Cathaoirleach can claim a lot of credit for that. In particular within the Oireachtas there is widespread respect and acknowledgement of what she has done.

I will not take the four minutes – I see I have just been docked a minute – but I want to say two things in particular. The first relates to the point that was made about not being able to be something until you can see it. That is a hugely important point.

I agree with what has been said about voting. Obviously, Eileen Flynn, as the first Traveller Member of the Oireachtas is a hugely important figure. Unfortunately, I do have a Dublin accent - there is nothing I can do about that - but half of my family are from Tuam in County Galway and I always think of Ellen Mongan, who became a councillor in Tuam 25 or 30 years ago. She was the first Traveller elected to public office. I pay tribute to her because she got a vote from across the community. There are obviously lots of settled Travellers in Tuam – more than 1,000 of them – but they would not be enough to elect her on their own, so she got votes from across the community. That is the most important thing - that we have to stop seeing it as a "them and us" situation.

When I first ran for local election in 2009 I visited Travellers in my area. I see Senator Clonan here, who is a neighbour of mine. There are a number of settled Travellers in the Blackrock area and I visited them and registered them to vote. They did not even all vote, but it was the first time that they had ever been engaged with by somebody seeking public office. It brought home to me the shortsightedness of politicians, which is why I want to agree with the point that was made about voting. It is absolutely true that if you do not vote, your politicians do not have to have regard to you, because the most important power that you have is your vote. Until they take notice of the fact that you control whether or not they get their job back, they can ignore you so the most effective way to stop them ignoring you is to register to vote and to cast your vote. I do not say that just to Travellers, I say that to everybody. We have local and European elections on 7 June. No matter who you are in this country, whether you are an Irish citizen or not, you are entitled to vote, for example, in those local elections. So many people around the country do not know that.

People who turn up and vote make the decisions about who represents them, so if you want politicians to sit up and take notice, get out there and make your voice heard.

The second area I want to speak about is that of justice. In my other job I am a barrister, and I have had the privilege - I say that sincerely - of working with a number of Travellers over the years who have experienced discrimination. Obviously, I know that discrimination against Travellers is rife generally, but I am referring here to the criminal justice system. We know it exists and it is something that needs to be worked on. It exists at every level. No more than in any other community, the Traveller community will have bad apples in it and there are people who come before the courts having done things they should not have done, but many Travellers come before the courts who genuinely need the representation to put forward the case of what actually happened, because they may not have been believed, somebody has given a false account or whatever it might be.

For any person who goes before a court for the first time, it is a hugely intimidating experience. That is particularly true for someone from the Traveller community or somebody who is not Irish and coming into what is essentially an alien environment in many respects. It has been my privilege to represent some of the people who have faced down that discrimination in the context of our criminal justice system. I am forever saying in this Chamber that it is generally very good, but it has its flaws, just like any other system. I look forward to working with people on an ongoing basis in that regard.

In conclusion, a Chathaoirligh, I just wanted to say that this is a great committee. I am standing in for Senator Joe O'Reilly, who cannot be here at this time. It is a privilege to be here. It is a privilege to work with the Cathaoirleach, and I offer her my congratulations. I thank her for everything she does.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senator. Deputy Buckley is going to give out because he is a sitting member of the committee, but we will go to Senator Clonan, whom I have to work with.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are the boss, Chair.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would pick you but for the fact that Senator Clonan would give me a hard time. I am only messing.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am an Independent Senator and I welcome all the witnesses to the Houses here today. It is lovely to sit here and listen to the contributions. I will be brief. I have only been here for two years. When I had been here for approximately a month or six weeks, my head was still spinning from trying to get used to how these Houses work and, as Deputy Ó Cuív said, how slowly things move in here, despite the frantic pace. For example, I will have to leave shortly because so many things are scheduled at the same time. I had been here for approximately six weeks and it was a beautiful, sunny day. I was out the front on the Plinth and Eileen was sitting outside, taking a break. She said to me, "Come here to me, Tom. Come over here and sit beside me." I went over and sat in the beautiful sunshine with Eileen. She asked me how I was getting on, how I was finding it and so on. Then Eileen said to me a sentence that I remind myself of every day I am in here. She said, "Do not forget, Tom, you are an activist. That is what we are here for. Do not ever forget that. You are an activist." I take that as a rule of how we should operate in here to help everybody and promote equality in all areas of Irish life.

In a previous life I was in the Army. One of my sergeants was a member of the Traveller community. We went overseas to Lebanon. It was his first time overseas. We were in south Lebanon, in a little village called Al Yatun, which is up on the top of a mountain. The Lebanese there all learned English from Irish soldiers, who have been going over since the 1970s. All the local Arabs had a Dublin accent. When the local mukhtar was upset, he used to say "Jaysus". I do not think he knew what he was actually saying, but he could hear the Irish soldiers saying it all the time. The Lebanese in Al Yatun were used to 600 Irish troops arriving every six months for nearly 40 years at that stage. We were all in uniform and we were all white, because it was a very homogenous group of people. However, this sergeant and I walked out onto the checkpoint and went into the shop, which was run by a fellow called Hafif. We used to call him "Hafif the thief" but he insisted that he was Hafif the honest man. His shop was called Dunnes Stores and it was basically a corrugated shack. This sergeant and I went in and everybody stood up. They completely ignored me and went straight over to this man and said, "Ahlan wa sahlan" because they immediately recognised that there was something different about him. They saw his difference as something special, something beautiful and something to be celebrated. It was a very moving moment. What we need to do in Ireland is to celebrate difference across all our citizens.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it okay with Deputy Buckley if I bring in the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien?

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We always save the best for last.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister of State is very welcome to the Chamber. If he would like to give an input, he is more than welcome to do so.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had been hoping the Cathaoirleach was not going to call me because I have not really gathered my thoughts, but I just wanted to come in. I am only getting the tail end of the input. I apologise that I could not be here earlier. I want to say "Well done" to the Cathaoirleach, Senator Flynn, for organising this. It is good to see. I will listen back to many of the inputs today as well. Is there an afternoon session as well?

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I might catch a little of that as well. I might be able to say a little bit more then. It is good to see everyone here. I recognise a couple of faces and I will hang around for a bit in case anybody wants to chat.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State so much for being here. It means a lot to have the support of having a Minister of State present. It is really important for us. The Minister of State is very supportive. Finally, I will call Deputy Buckley.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Cathaoirleach. At this stage I was going to say, "No, you are fine." I will be very brief. I want to congratulate all in attendance. They probably do not realise it, but this is a very historic day for each and every one of them. They are now all part of history. Senator Flynn is an amazing Chair. We have had very frank conversations here, but the beauty of this committee is that it is non-political. We are all part of it because we are extremely interested in doing the right thing. It is a rights-based issue. I do not think we have had a real argument in committee; it has been that good. I always have a habit of scanning a crowd. Looking around, I see many young people here. There are a few who are not so young, if that is the right term to use. If I could put this into a line, I would say to each and every person here that if they believe in themselves, there is zero that is impossible.

Some 20 years ago, I got into activism because of issues that happened in my life. I wanted to change them, because the system was not supporting families that were affected. My background is mental health and I am well aware of the rates of suicide within the Traveller community and all communities. That is what brought me into politics. Even one individual can change things, but when you work as a group, as we have done on this committee, you can change a lot more.

I would never judge a person. Who are we to look down on somebody else? How dare anybody look down on anybody else? Each and every one of us has feelings. Everyone here and everyone outside this bubble, as I call it, deserves the exact same level of respect, but also deserves an open, listening ear. I love to see so many young people. Young people are normally spoken down to by their peers. I normally speak a lot faster because I am from Cork, but I slowed down for this. A trick I learned is that sometimes we have to just sit back, keep our mouths shut, listen to the young people and listen to the older generation about their lived experiences. That is how you thrash out the issues and find out what is going wrong. Many Deputies mentioned the accommodation issue. The cost levels are absolutely disgraceful. We have argued a lot about that. It is not good enough. We cannot be sectioning people off. We are all the same. We all live under one banner. We all live under one flag.

We all get people coming up to us and giving out about X, Y and Z. The first question I will ask them is whether they voted. They will ask me what they would be voting for, because politicians are all the same. I tell them that if they have not voted, they technically have no right to complain because it is their own fault. If you want to change things, you have to vote to change.

We heard some of the speakers here saying that it is a stone mad process inside here. I apologise for being late. I also have another place to be at 1.15 p.m. and another meeting at 1.30 p.m. Then I will be back again.

The important thing to say is, "Do vote." Make sure your voices are being heard. If you are not happy then you have the right to complain and the right to come to Deputies and Senators to say, "You are not doing the job right for me. This is what I want." We have to listen to you. I am very proud to be part of this committee. I sat on committees at Cork County Council many years ago but this is a special committee. We are here together, all of us, to work on your behalf. You are the most special people inside here today and each and every one of you should be so proud because you are the very first group that I have seen in the Seanad, ever in my life, that is now making change from today. I would just ask that when you leave here today you do not say, "We had a great day today and that it is it; it is finished." Keep coming back into us. Keep getting at the committee. Tell us what is wrong and we will try to fix it, the whole group together. I thank the Chair for her patience.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With regard to time, I give members the inch and they take the mile, but I thank the Deputy. Before we round off on session No. 1, I welcome to the Chamber our young students from the Cross and Passion College, Kilcullen, County Kildare. It is always about reaching out to one person in society to change the mind of one person about the stereotypes that exist for our community. I hope that today we are showing all of Ireland and beyond that we deserve to be here. Our voices not only deserve to be heard, it is also about implementation, by which I mean implementation of the 84 recommendations and beyond, including policies and legislation. Deputy Ó Cuív would be the first to give out about pilot projects. He cannot stand them. The Deputy has given out about policies being kicked down the road and so on. Really, our committee focuses on the little wins, on something that is achievable. This is how we work as a committee. Today is one of those actions. This brings our first session to a close. There will be tea, coffee, biscuits and some nice chat and a photographer outside. We will have a bit of laugh as well and enjoy the day, which is very important. I thank you all so much and I will see you all in session No. 2. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome everybody back. As a reminder, the five topics we are covering are: health, including mental health; accommodation; education; employment; and justice. I thank all the ushers in Leinster House for their support today and also the catering staff, especially Julie and John, in making sure everybody had some nice lunch. We say there are so many Johns and Martins in our community. There are so many Daves and Davids among the ushers, so I am not going to go through them all. I would really like to thank them because they are a joy to work with, and the same with the restaurant staff. I got a lovely message from the photographers and camera people who are recording today's session. They are really enjoying listening to people. This is what it is all about. It is about people in here educating everybody around the issues that impact on Travellers. We have dealt with them for years, but if we think we are the most educated people in the room, we are really the biggest fools in the room. It is the same way for people in these Houses. It is brilliant to get the lovely messages from the camera people who are recording today. There is a lovely atmosphere around Leinster House. I thank everybody for making that possible.

Our first speaker this afternoon is Mr. Oein de Bhairdúin. We are absolutely privileged to have Oein here with us this afternoon. The floor is his.

Mr. Oein de Bhaird?in:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. Mo geels, mo tribli, mo chairde, my friends, I am absolutely honoured to be here and to be able to accept the invitation to speak in this very real historic space in support of our health and access to justice. The focus of health is on the health of culture and heritage, however, and access to justice is on our ability to partake in our cultural lives, the impact it has on our communities and the consequences of it to our families, especially the young.

I consider this a very much-needed and essential conversation for a community that is disconnected from its historic expressions and belongings and that can exist in a state of trauma and great injury. It has wide-reaching implications and consequences on belonging from mental health to self esteem, inter-community dialogue, self-identity and on and on.

When I hear the term "culture and heritage", I feel that pull to the elder world that existed before I even did. However, I also feel that beating heart of where we are now among the contemporary people, living current and ongoing lives that host our identities and honour the echoes of our pasts and hold up the choruses of our futures.

In the personal lives of Travellers, we understand that a connection to the past is essential as it aids the grounding and contextual personal and collective communication of who we are to who we can, should and will be. I, of course, also acknowledge the difficulties in identifying and sharing our cultural belongings. When so much of the community is in a state of ongoing and inter-generational trauma, investing in the protection, preservation and promotion of culture can be seen and interpreted almost as a surplus; a point of luxury or an additional later consideration to a people who are being overtly repressed and oppressed by the State as well as being subtly and openly undermined historically by the institutional structures. It is like when the songs of our foremothers cannot be heard when the children are without home, shelter, care and gruber and the noise of emergency need blunts out the voice that carries us forward. This can lead to an external interpretation that the honouring of culture and heritage is an option rather than a core being of who we are and why we survive.

I am also drawn to mention the many committees and reports, such as Joint Committee Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community report and the Seanad Public Consultation Committee report,Travellers Towards a More Equitable Ireland Post-Recognition, which were not lacking in recommendations and needs that, if invested in and honoured, would be so very transformative. At the same time, however, I would draw light to how and when these would be delivered and the many poignant recommendations in the unity of the community and what we need to be delivered.

In terms of our language, Gammon-Cant, the UNESCO protection and election to the assembly and its placement on the Irish national inventory of intangible cultural heritage is very much welcomed, but there could be a far more connected engagement for an island-wide review, reflection, collection and support of this. Our language is an Irish language and is part of the speech, native tongue and spirit of it.

In terms of our traditional healing covering customs, cure and curative herbal action, I hope this will receive more investment and exploration. Otherwise, we rely on students like Mr. Ian McDonagh, who was here today. He was previously the BT young scientist science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, awardee, and forwards more much-needed understanding. He works in identifying some costs around our practices and has even saved funding and resources for the HSE.

With regard to traditional skill sets, be they among the many such as tinkering, woodwork, masonry and field-footing, I remain solidly convinced that we would welcome a shift in our various apprenticeships and the need for them. The extension, preservation and protection of traditional skills is not only a vital act but one that I understand is receiving absolutely no opposition; it just needs appropriate resourcing.

Our music, songs, musicians, and storytellers are tellers of otherwise long lost or endangered tales. Our tinsmiths and crafters, weavers and beady-makers, dreamers and writers, poets and creators are among the custodians of our culture, but also the wider culture of the island and that needs to be protected, ensured, ring-fenced, promoted and given extension.

I welcome, especially in recent years, the increased opportunities and pathways for Travellers to engage in the arts, but this is all among the decision-makers of the process. We are really among them and are yet seen to be authentic stakeholders. Extending the employment avenues for people to work in the State as strategic providers of heritage and culture is essential. Otherwise, we run the risk of relying on only a handful of resourced people to support the custodianship of more than 50,000 people's diverse and mutlifold belonging and heritage, which provides an ongoing risk to the self-identity, belonging, education and core health our being with one another.

Trauma-informed undertakings would not only be very much welcomed by the community, but I feel it is essential to be a part of it if we are to deliver what needs to be delivered. The creation of resources, such as the Pavee Pathways, Mincéirí archives, piseoga and Cork Traveller photo archives, are what I believe are part of giving voices to our elders, our young and our community. They are among the needed resources and tool kits that promote the health of our culture connection, but they are also much-needed educational resources and information that undermine discriminatory mind sets and practices of our people who are at a distance from us. Without such tools, we give additional passage to those structures and those within them do us active harm.

Events such as Misleór, the national festival of nomads that draws together nomadic people across the globe, to a yearly event in Galway, should be far more than just annual events. Honouring the paths we are from and how we travel can be reduced to tokenism if we do not continue to expand them. We are Travellers every day, not just on days like Traveller Pride Week when we get to showcase our strengths and vibrancy, but every day. I feel that in order to tip the scales towards a healthier community, we need to ensure that the honouring and celebration of connective aspects of our beautiful culture and heritage need to continue to be underpinned in the work of the State, its agencies, structures and curriculums, not as potential add-ons, but as a core aspect of the essential work.

Ensuring Traveller-specific positions, permanent roles within the creative, cultural and heritage sector will aid the journey towards a better understanding of our cultural inheritance but also ensure that the places, spaces and communities can be seen as active and authentic agents of change and belonging. An elevation of our contribution to the fabric of the arts and heritage of this island within the structural mindset and strategic deliveries would do much for our mental health sensitivities, bring opportunities for increase employment, increase personal and family resources, and be an additional means of nurturing positive outcomes, educational resources and honouring our ancestors.

The State I hope will continue to expand the safeguarding of our heritage and create additional security for our health and our access to justice and education. An increased State investment would do much more for all of us because not only would we survive but we could prosper.

I genuinely believe in the work of this committee and I hope that not only are we listened to but we are actually heard. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. De Bhairdúin. When Oein talks about heritage and culture within our community, we cannot forget about the Traveller Culture and History in Education Bill that he was part of drafting and put hard, dedicated work into. We thank him for that and for all of his hard work over the years at a political level. It is funny because we have Oein talking about culture and participation of the Traveller community when it comes to the arts and performance and it gives me a great honour to welcome the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, to the Chamber. Perhaps she might like to say a few words as last night we were talking about the importance of inclusion in the arts, whatever that may be, be it poetry or acting, and that Travellers have an equal space in these places. The Minister is very welcome and I invite her to say a few words but there is no pressure. We are not looking to fix everything today but we would be very grateful if she could say a few words to us now.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Flynn agus go raibh míle maith aici. It is appropriate, although it was not planned, that I just happened to come in straight after Oein who does so much for Traveller culture. I am delighted to see everyone here today.

I start by saying that you enrich our culture. I do not think that that is acknowledged enough so I will say it again as Minister for arts and culture. You enrich our culture. I attach great importance to supporting Traveller culture. Cultural expression and cultural participation is essential for identity, for respect, for social inclusion and well-being.

The basic income for the arts pilot scheme which I have rolled out to support artists includes 14 people who identified as Traveller or Roma when applying and they are now receiving that basic income for the arts payment to support them in their invaluable work.

I mentioned the Traveller wellbeing through creativity 2023 fund run by Creative Ireland in 2022 and 2023. These projects place Travellers at the centre of creative projects. The HSE is working hard to find a pathway to mainstream this approach within its services. The evaluation of the fund shows the passion of the participants and the deep impact which the participation had on them.

Supporting the Traveller community is an important priority for the Arts Council and I am very pleased that it is funding an arts officer in Pavee Point. The National Museum's appointing of Oein as Traveller Culture Collector is also a milestone. It has been truly wonderful to support Martin Beanz Warde; Emma Ward, who I see here today, and others at the Gallery of Photography; the Pisreóg Project with Saint Margaret's Traveller Association; the rappers - Wolsey, Casey and James McDonagh; virtuoso musician Thomas McCarthy; Rosie McDonagh's play at the Misleór festival in Galway; and Paint Punch Abbeyfeale for young people in Abbeyfeale with artist Frank McCarthy and Sam Horgan.

These are very important enabling actions and I want to say to the committee and its guests that it is only the start. I acknowledge that and we will do more. I promise the committee that as Minister for arts and culture. I want to do more and I am absolutely committed to doing more. Go dté sibh ó neart go neart agus táim ag tnúth chun leanúint leis an obair atá idir lámha le chéile.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That genuinely was not planned. It was great that the Minister could reply after Oein's presentation and we are very grateful for that. The Minister is right in that it is only a starting point for our community and the arts. Keeping Traveller culture is not just about Traveller culture but is about keeping that culture alive. I remember speaking with Oein, and I quote this a great deal, where we were going into schools and many settings - we wanted to educate people on Traveller culture but we never get that opportunity to speak about Traveller culture because we are always speaking about the inequalities which Travellers have to endure on a daily basis. I remember Oein asking me one time what we were doing going into schools, where we talk about problems we face and do not talk about culture. One can actually see that shift now and it is about keeping Traveller culture alive and to the heart of Irish society. We can all agree in this House today at this committee that we are at the heart of Irish culture because we as a community still live by and value some traditional Irish ways of life today in society. I thank the Minister.

We move now to our next speaker, Thomas McCann. Thomas has been a great activist for years, it is a pleasure to have him here and the floor is his.

Mr. Thomas McCann:

I thank the Cathaoirleach very much. This is an historic occasion to have the Seanad, I will not say taken over by Travellers but for us to have the Seanad for the day will be recorded in history as the first time this has happened. I think this is a very historic day. People will look back from another generation of Travellers, or two or three generations down the road, or the majority community will look back and will see that we were here for the day. Hopefully, it will be more than a day by the time we are finished, on the political side of things.

There have been many people within Government and across the political spectrum who want to see change for Travellers. We had, of course, the appointment of Eileen as Senator which is a significant shift in having a Traveller voice in the Seanad. We can see what happened as a result of that. We also have the establishment of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community.

Likewise, we have the National Traveller and Roma Inclusion Strategy 2017 – 2021, NTRIS, and the recognition of Traveller ethnicity in 2017. We also have the National Traveller Health Action Plan 2022-2027. The proposed anti-hate speech legislation will hopefully come to fruition and is very badly needed for Travellers. There are many other actions and programmes which have been implemented. We can see that there is a will to bring certain policies and strategies into being. However, even with the greatest efforts that have been made, much of this has not translated into actions on the ground for Travellers. That is the main problem. That undermines the political will that is there when these are not translated into actions that impact on the community. There are a number of reasons for that and for the systemic racism Travellers face in Irish society. We talked about accommodation and education earlier on and there are a whole number of obstacles.

The urgency of addressing the mental health crisis within the Traveller community cannot be overstated. The results of generations of exclusion, racism and inequality have and are impacting on the Traveller community and on the mental health of Travellers throughout the country. We are at a crisis which has been acknowledged by the all-party Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community, by previous Ministers with responsibility for mental health and by strategies which have been brought out.

This crisis has been persisting and developing over the past 24 years in particular. I say that because in 2003 Mary Rose Walker prepared a report showing that Traveller suicide at the time was three times higher than in the majority population. However, no action was taken as a result. Subsequent reports like A Vision for Change, the All-Ireland Traveller Health Study and numerous other studies have identified Travellers as being at high risk. We are now in a crisis situation with regard to mental health. This has been echoed by the concerns of the community across the spectrum and by others internationally. This crisis continues despite clear recommendations, including in the current programme for Government, which has a commitment to develop a national Traveller mental health strategy, as mentioned earlier. In 2017, research by Behaviour and Attitudes, a reputable communications and public relations company, showed that approximately 80% of Travellers are affected by suicide in their immediate or extended families. This is the current situation we have talked about recently. Calls for action have been made by the National Traveller Mental Health Network, by ourselves and others on numerous occasions, as well as calls by many politicians to implement a national Traveller mental health strategy. Questions have been raised in the Dáil but we still have not got to the stage where this is seen as a priority as a national strategy. It might be spoken about by others as a national strategy, but it is not prioritised as a national strategy. However well-meaning, the promises have not translated into meaningful change.

Meanwhile, the Traveller community continues to endure unimaginable suffering. One of the programmes mentioned earlier offered a glimpse into the community with the death of that young child. That is only a glimpse into the suffering of many families across the community. I will not say it is every day of the week, but nearly every week of the year there is a life lost. We really need to take stock of where we are and what is a priority in terms of family in the Traveller community.

That is not to take away from the many positive actions taken, the strategies that are in place and the proposals that have been made. Senator Flynn mentioned the education Bill, where Traveller culture will be in the curriculum. Hopefully, that will happen. They are really positive with regard to self-esteem. The Minister mentioned identity and self esteem and the part played by the arts and culture. I think that is important, but that self-esteem has been eroded by decades and generations of racism which has been internalised by the community.

As a community, we cannot afford to wait any longer. The time for action is now. How do we move this thing on? How do we change this? Mr. Bernard Joyce spoke about accommodation. It was not about the money because the money was never really spent. We need to tackle the systemic and institutionalised racism in this society in order to move things on. Otherwise, while we will hopefully be back in the Seanad again, we may be outside again protesting, as we have done many times, including late last year.

As I stand in the Seanad Chamber, I am sure, as representatives of the Irish nation, all of the people who set up this House from the beginning believed we would be in a different place at this stage when it comes to equality, human rights and inclusion. I believe the current Government and all politicians have an obligation and responsibility not just to settled people, but also to Travellers. I call on the Government to do what it said it would do. If it did that, we would be in a much better place. Travellers would be in a much better place if the actions identified and the policies put in place were implemented. We would be in a different place.

The capacity is there to create an inclusive country where Travellers feel valued and respected and where everyone has the opportunity to reach their full potential. We spoke earlier about a vision and a picture. Collectively we can get there, but we need to be committed and get on board to get that done. It is not only about resources, but making sure those actions take place. I hope the next NTRIS will be a vehicle for change and that we take on board the actions that came out of the all-party committee. I thank the Cathaoirleach and everyone else for having us here and at least allowing us the space to articulate some of the issues impacting on us.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Mr. Martin Collins to the Chamber. He has been an activist for many a year - approximately 40 years. That is not to make him sound old. It is important that we mention his presence here. We are talking about the younger activists coming up, but let us not forget about the people who did it before us. With that, it is a pleasure to introduce Ms RoseMarie Maughan and to give her the floor as a Traveller woman activist for many a year as well, looking for better opportunities for all communities in society.

Ms RoseMarie Maughan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I first congratulate her and let her know how deeply proud Irish Travellers are of her. We would not be here today if not for her. I acknowledge that fact, and the Trojan work she is doing both on behalf of, and with, all marginalised communities. Many Irish Travellers have expressed how important today is. Almost 20 Irish Travellers are speaking quite capably on their own issues and bringing to the floor of the Seanad Chamber their own recommendations and solutions, which they have been speaking about for decades. It is an important day, but the reality is that when we walk out of the Chamber we will still face institutional racism, discrimination and oppression as Irish Travellers. En route this morning in a taxi, Ms McCrudden, Ms Emma Ward, Ms Samantha Joyce and I were all excited about getting the opportunity as Irish Travellers to speak to our own issues and our own lives. We got into the taxi and were asked where were headed. We said we were going to the Seanad and were asked what we were talking about. When we answered that we would be speaking on Traveller rights we felt the ice-cold sentiment in that taxi as soon as we said that. We were next asked what we would be talking about. We said we would be talking about the fact that we have been surviving cultural genocide and assimilation attempts since the foundation of the Irish Free State. We were told there was no need to bring big words into it and asked whether we would talk about the ones giving us a bad name. This is the lived reality we deal with. We have to be held accountable for individuals in our community whom we do not even know and who are used by non-Travellers to justify their ill -treatment and racism towards us. We can never get any closer to the realisation of Irish Traveller rights until we receive an official State apology for the 1963 commission report about us, without us. That set the tone for our lived reality for decades following. It set the tone for our lived intergenerational trauma. That has to be said. It has not been said yet today, and I thought it was important to name it. I know I have gone off track from the topic of employment, but it is closely interlinked.

There were 22 recommendations on employment in the final report of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. There has been progress, but it has been slow and it seems only 11 of the recommendations are in the early stages of development.

To date, no systematic understanding has been applied to redress Traveller’s social inequalities, including in employment. The absence of data and a coherent Government approach to inform mainstream investments and strategies has worsened outcomes. The programme for Government 2020 commitment to a Traveller and Roma training, employment and enterprise plan was a positive and welcome step, but, sadly, it has yet to materialise. A multilevel, integrated approach involving the education and training sector is critical to redress intergenerational poverty and exclusion arising from long-term community unemployment - I would say the forced long-term unemployment within our community.

In 2022, unemployment in Ireland was 8%, but it was 61% for Travellers. This was 20% below the 2016 rate, but comparatively, still alarmingly high. A concerning statistic is the number of Travellers who are unable to work due to permanent sickness or disability. Seven employment actions linked to the NTRIS are under the Department of Social Protection, but pace and a centralised lead are needed for the next inclusion strategy. There is an acceptance of the need for a national Traveller and Roma employment strategy, including to mainstream employment across all facets of the public service, with targets laid out for all relevant agencies. National employment policies, for example, the Pathways to Work 2020-2025, make commitments to Travellers but there is little evidence of progress leading to change. There is also an overreliance on funded initiatives through NTRIS to make progress in Traveller employment, putting the responsibility, once again, back on the Traveller organisations to resolve the issue without the resources to do so.

Traveller participation in the labour market is marked by stigma and discrimination in recruitment, both direct and indirect. Travellers are ten times more likely than white Irish settled people to experience discrimination in seeking work. Decades of inaction have resulted in limited work opportunities or self-employment and, therefore, dependency on social welfare. Many Travellers who do secure employment, often do so by having to sell our souls, our very existence, by pretending we are non-Traveller. No one should have to deny the fact they were born an Irish Traveller just to be given the opportunity to have a job and a PAYE wage. We should not have to pretend to be something we are not just to be afforded the right to have a job.

When we talk about Mr. McCann's input on mental health, can the committee try to imagine the impact of what this experience does to young Travellers? Right from preschool, we are told we are not good enough, we will never achieve anything, there is no belief in us and we should look at everybody that came before us. The internalisation of this experience is soul-destroying. Nobody talks enough about it, but society needs to hear this and hear it well because being treated like this is soul-destroying and breaks your character as a human. I will repeat that it breaks your character as a human. You have to put yourself back together. This is why we do have a mental health crisis and why our children are now dying by suicide.

Mr. McCann alluded to the fact that the time for change is now. The time for change was decades ago, but we are here now and we are hopeful we will get the change that we need. I say this because I am hearing the commitment, the passion and the political will to bring this about and that we have allies in this space along with our amazing Senator. I believe the change is here and we are here with you to be part of that change. I know the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, has left the room, but I would welcome hearing her comments in this regard, as well her working with us in safeguarding Traveller culture because it is not just about celebrating it, but about trying to keep it alive. We have been surviving cultural genocide and we need to keep naming this for what it is. The national Traveller organisations would be more than welcome to link in with the Minister in the near future to see how we can work alongside her to ensure this happens.

Current education policy and practice has not been successful in significantly improving Traveller access, progression and retention in post-primary and further and higher education as a pathway into employment. In 2017, of six in ten Travellers surveyed who undertook training schemes, with an average rate of two to three schemes, only three in ten gained employment. The absence of Traveller employment data fails both the system, the community and society in general. Without the data, we cannot measure the uptake of the Government's own positive initiatives. Examples include the work placement experience programme, targeted at young jobseekers facing significant barriers to employment, including young Travellers, or the progression routes to appropriate further education, training and employment supports offered by Intreo. In all these initiatives, there is no monitoring of outcomes for Travellers.

Traveller women face additional challenges and barriers in accessing training and employment, often rooted in societal prejudices, cultural factors and economic disparities, as well as the juggle involved in being a mother. Travel women are also mothers. We know Irish society has advanced women's rights, and rightly so. We have done so much and we have come a long way. Unfortunately, however, when we talk about glass ceilings, Irish Traveller women do not have to break through just a glass ceiling but through reinforced steel ceilings. When doing so, this needs to be celebrated and encouraged more. Young Traveller women need to be afforded opportunities and investment in young Traveller women should not be a struggle all the time. This is especially the case when we have the strategies and the solutions, yet they go unimplemented year after year while we as Travellers are paying with our lives.

Entrepreneurship presents a pathway to economic empowerment, yet Travellers encounter barriers in establishing and sustaining businesses. Financial constraints, including the fear of a loss of benefits, and access to business development resources and information, pose challenges for Traveller entrepreneurs. I will comment, though, on what we have found that works. Pockets of good practice are evident locally in the creation of social enterprises and employment, but these are few. In 2023, the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme, led by the Irish Traveller Movement, was launched and is supporting Travellers to access and retain apprenticeships. To date, there have been almost 200 expressions of interest, and these have led to 47 Travellers receiving bursaries.

We have, however, noted challenges. One is finding employers willing to employ Travellers. The second concerns appropriate support for umbrella and representative bodies to fully support and promote the initiative. The third is supporting Traveller women to take up apprenticeships. The fourth challenge relates again to the fact that Irish Travellers have been forced into and stuck in the poverty trap for decades and generations. This is not going to be an easy situation to unpick. Investment and time are needed to address it. We as a community must also be nurtured and supported out of this poverty trap. The fifth challenge relates to providing access to a greater number of locations for pre-apprenticeships in the ETB sector and to apprenticeships in TUS training courses. To have a real impact, though, and to bring about meaningful change for Travellers on the ground, the programme needs to be core funded and further developed to have a greater reach and impact.

In short, then, what is needed? A national innovative strategy is required to mainstream Traveller employment across all facets of the public service, with implementation plans, KPIs and monitoring and evaluation processes laid out for all relevant agencies, along with a multilevel, cross-departmental action plan with ring-fenced investment. Along with this, there must be a peer-led comprehensive assessment of need and a skills audit to determine the current community status in employment needs and experience to inform the much-needed national Traveller employment strategy. Public sector-wide cultural competency and anti-racism training should be instituted for all staff, especially those working in employment activation and support. Government-funded bodies should be required to develop strategies that increase diversity. There should be employer research and both a sectoral and public education plan to combat attitudes and prejudice towards Travellers contributing to exclusion. Traveller recruitment to the public sector should be expedited, with targets identified and a review of the minimum entry requirements. Progress has not been made in this regard, despite plans being in place. Ethnic identifiers should be introduced across public services as necessary, and equality budgeting strategy. With the launch of NTRIS 2 imminent, it is essential that the strategy is adequately funded with ring-fenced budgets, departmental leads and ministerial oversight across the actions under each Department. We cannot afford to have one more NTRIS plan that goes unimplemented. This is because we are way beyond crisis point when our children are opting out by suicide. I hope the committee really hears the urgent need and that children's lives matter. I thank the committee.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Maughan so much. We will now move on to Martin Ward. Since one or two other people are seeking to contribute, it would be good to give whoever wants to speak the opportunity to do so. We will not put the timer on but if people could stick to six minutes, it would be brilliant. I am not putting any pressure on Mr. Ward and if he goes over the time, it is okay. It is only a gentle reminder.

Mr. Martin Ward:

No bother at all. I thank the Cathaoirleach very much for the invitation and the opportunity to speak here today.

Numerous research reports note the experiences of Travellers in regard to discrimination and racism. For example, the Traveller Community National Survey found that 52% of Travellers had experienced an obstacle to accessing employment and that 43% had encountered discrimination while accessing it. The issues Travellers experienced included discrimination because of identity; not meeting the required skill level; having to modify and hide identity when applying; and not getting employment as a result of being known as a Traveller.

In 2017, Behaviour and Attitudes surveyed the general population about their attitudes to a range of minority groups and found that Travellers, along with the Roma community, were the most discriminated against among a list of 12 minority groups. The findings revealed the extent of the discrimination. Only 17% of the general public said they would employ a member of the Traveller community. Only 15% of the public said they would welcome Travellers in friendship and only 25% said they would welcome Travellers as co-workers.

In 2017, Galway Traveller Movement knew the challenge faced and the big societal shift needed for Travellers to gain mainstream employment. At the time, there was an unemployment rate of 80%. There was a myth that Travellers did not want to work but the statistics showed otherwise. We founded our flagship social enterprise Bounce Back Recycling in that year. We started with three employees and now have 20, both Traveller men and Traveller women. We started delivering our services in County Galway and now deliver a nationwide selection of services to commercial clients and also to domestic householders in 13 counties. What we are trying to highlight is that anything is possible if you are given an opportunity. We have really busted the myth in Galway that Travellers do not want to work and have showcased what can be done.

We have tried to address the environmental impact of the disposal of 600,000 mattresses in Ireland every year. We are proud that we are reclaiming our community space as the original recyclers on the island and linking what we do to what has served the circular economy agenda for over 200 years through tinsmithing.

Bounce Back Recycling cannot be the only show in town and every Traveller should not have to become a recycler to gain employment. Therefore, we regard internships as having a key role. A Civil Service internship programme has been delivered across certain public sector sites since 2023. While this is welcome, it is imperative that public sector internship programmes that target members of the Traveller community be continued and scaled up to achieve an impact. Crucially, they must include progression to full-time employment as an outcome for participants, following their successful completion of the programme. The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform should include in the design of all internship programmes the outcome of full-time employment for participants.

Many Travellers live in counties that are not urban and where there are few Civil Service employment opportunities. In these areas, there are public service employers, including local authorities, and these should all host internship programmes targeting Travellers. There are examples of good practice available, including the programmes delivered by South Dublin County Council in the mid-2000s.

To be fully inclusive, the public sector must be representative of the communities it serves. For Travellers, this means almost 1% of all employees should be from the Traveller community. This would amount to 3,700 public service employees. There are measures in place to improve the diversity of the public service, including the requirement to meet the public sector equality and human rights duty, the equality, diversity and inclusion focus of the Public Appointments Service and the remit of the Department of public expenditure. Quotas have been notable in the gender and disability areas under the duty but Travellers were not included in nested quotas within these and a general intersectional lens was not applied. A spokesperson for the Department told The Irish Times that its 2030 strategy aims to ensure the policy and service responses are focused on equality, inclusivity and accessibility.

For progress to be made, the following should happen. A set of clear targets should be established regarding Travellers’ employment in the public service to ensure progress is made towards a fully representative public service. Public service bodies should be required to undertake targeted recruitment drives and report on their progress towards inclusive recruitment practice for Travellers. An ethnic identifier should be put in place across the public sector and carried out in line with good practice. Staff training on equality, diversity and inclusion should include specific inputs on Travellers because, in our experience, this training does not cover all grounds of equality.

There are high-profile social enterprises that are Traveller led. These include Bounce Back Recycling, Bounce Back Upcycling and Shuttle Knit. For Traveller representative organisations, social enterprise has provided an opportunity for Travellers to claim the enterprise and employment space and create employment opportunities in light of labour market discrimination and racism.

However, supports for Traveller organisations to explore and develop social enterprise activity is limited. The resources required to research and develop an idea to the trading stage can be extensive and the criteria for accessing supports are unrealistic. We are delighted to say we receive funding in Galway from the Department of Rural and Community Development.

With the second national social enterprise policy, there is an opportunity to put in place adequate support for Traveller-led social enterprise development. This should include support to develop social enterprises from early-stage concept development to the trading stage. These supports should be developed in collaboration with existing Traveller-led social enterprises and Traveller organisations.

With regard to enterprise and employment services, Travellers often favour self-employment and micro and small enterprise development. The existing enterprise support programmes, provided through local development companies and local enterprise offices, must have a targeted aspect to their programmes to engage with Travellers. This could include gathering data on ethnicity, as outlined, and reporting on the ethnicity of those who apply for and receive the supports; putting in place Traveller-specific supports in collaboration with Traveller representative organisations, which could include ring-fencing mentor and other supports for Travellers or recruiting mentors from the Traveller community; and ensuring that existing mentors and staff are competent to provide a culturally appropriate service to members of the Traveller community.

On supports for employers and Traveller-specific initiatives, there are no Traveller-specific initiatives that provide information and guidance to employers who wish to develop inclusive Traveller employment practices. This is despite significant research that has identified the barriers to employment for Travellers and the need for public and private sector employers to address barriers in the workplace for Travellers.

In a 2017 Traveller survey, it was found that only three in ten people who have attended a training scheme gained employment as a result. There is a need for dedicated resources to support employers to implement positive action for Travellers in employment. Many of the initiatives I have noted will require support from Traveller representative organisations, but few have the resources to provide this support. The special initiative for Travellers was established in 2005 and was an ad hoc and limited resource, operating in only five areas since its establishment. There is some support for targeted and inclusive apprenticeships but there is a need for greater resources around employment. Funding should be made available for Traveller representative organisations to deliver supports to employers. This could be administered on a county or national basis to ensure a comprehensive suite of resources for private and public sector employers. Local resources are needed for needed for specific measures.

The following are our recommendations: a national Traveller employment and enterprise strategy that is fully resourced for implementation from the outset to ensure it delivers on targets that are ambitious and delivers positive impacts for the Traveller community; peer-led resources for Traveller organisations to support this area of work at local and national levels; and the full implementation of the national action plan on racism, this being to tackle the root cause of the high unemployment rate among Travellers. The national action plan needs adequate resources to have a meaningful impact for members of the Traveller community. A further recommendation is cross-departmental support and resources to address the legacy of the non-implementation of the recommendations of decades of reports and other recommendations, which has failed the Traveller community.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you. I would now like to call on Ian McDonagh, a young Traveller activist. I met Ian when he was about 17 and he is still an inspiring young person in our community today, just like Latisha, James and all the other young people we have in our Gallery.

Mr. Ian McDonagh:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the invitation. I am a 22-year-old Irish Traveller and it is an honour to be here to speak about my views of education in Ireland as a young Traveller who completed second level education to leaving certificate and went on to study mortuary science at the Irish College of Funeral Directing and Embalming. I am currently Ireland’s first ever Traveller funeral director and embalmer, a title I hope to bring to other members of the Traveller community in the years to come.

Statistics about suicide were read out. As I say, it is not a statistic to me. I am the embalmer who opens up the body bags of young Travellers and is able to bring these people on their last journey. It is sad, because I never get the opportunity to take an elderly Traveller from a nursing home or hospital. It is all young people who come into my care. Anyone who comes into my care from the Traveller or any other community is treated with respect. As I say, racism still comes into funeral homes and embalming rooms, even when people are deceased.

In January 2016, I became the first Traveller to participate in and win an award at the BT Young Scientists Exhibition, winning second place. My project was titled "Does the lunar cycle play a role in equine birth patterns?". In January 2017, I entered the BT Young Scientist Exhibition for the second time and won the Jack Restan award for my project which looked at the cures and folklore of the Irish Traveller community. I was the first student in my school to enter and take two places in that exhibition.

As the age of 12, I became deeply involved in making my local area in Galway city a safer place to live, including having speed ramps installed in my housing estate and numerous green areas approved. When I watched a documentary about a young lad, Jake, who was killed in Kilkenny because of a lack of speed ramps, I realised that family had to lose a family member in order for speed ramps to be installed. This was my first taste of politics and has given me a lifeline passion and interest. I hope in the coming years that I will further pursue this and become a member of the Government for the people of Galway West and give those from disadvantaged and minority backgrounds a voice at every decision-making table.

There is no point in all of us sitting back and allowing other people to take our place when we can put ourselves forward and be politicians. We can do it if we want to, and we will do it. As I say to my community, it does not matter what party a Traveller puts themselves forward for, Travellers should vote them in. It is the person they are voting for. It is not the case that the party will not do the work; rather, it is a person who will change things that people should have working for them. If we want to make a change, we need a Traveller in every political party. We cannot do it on our own.

Having been formally recognised as an ethnic minority in 2017, I hope Travellers young and old feel proud of their identity. Since being recognised as an ethnic minority, a great amount of work and discussion has taken place around the teaching of Traveller history, language and culture in primary and secondary schools. While this is yet to be enacted, I hope it will bring about positive changes for the future of the Traveller community, especially in the fields of education and employment. We need to see more Travellers in greater roles, including Traveller gardaí, politicians, accountants, nurses and doctors. The Traveller community is full of innovative minds and motivated and hardworking people who, given the correct advice, direction and chance in education and the ability to start believing in themselves, will do great things for our country. Unfortunately, the current educational landscape in Ireland has many hurdles in place that make it exceptionally difficult for minority and disadvantaged groups to climb.

I had the great honour of working with a great education team in the Galway Traveller movement last year. I worked as a peer-led education worker in a post-primary school in Galway city. The education team and I set up a diversity hub in a post-primary school to enhance the school lives of Traveller students. Simple actions like being available to students to help with them with their homework and assignments and providing much-needed computers and Wi-Fi for students who are resident on halting sites meant they were able to complete schoolwork without embarrassment or worry. Due to lack of funding or investment for the service, we were not able to expand this offering which was and is so greatly needed. We went to the Department of Education and were told that funding was not there for us. Sadly, that project will probably come to an end this year. Being in a secondary school in Galway city, seeing young students who live on my street being able to ask me, "Are you a Traveller?, having a Traveller in a staff room and being there for the students was important. When students were being spoken down to or treated wrongly in the school, we were the first to the scene to stand up for them.

For me, education is extremely important as I see it as a foundation that can help people to build and grow. It builds self-confidence, awareness and an ability to participate actively in our society. It gives a person opportunities and choices not ordinarily available to them. Without my education, I would not be able to stand here today and give this speech in confidence and have the awareness and understanding of the education sector in Ireland. Low levels of education lead to poor self-esteem, job opportunities and health, and can also lead to depression. As we well know in the Traveller community, that has led to high rates of suicide.

To briefly conclude, I feel that parents need to encourage their Traveller children to progress through the education system and gain a leaving certificate. More importantly, I urge school principals, teachers, SNAs and the Department of Education to take active measures to truly understand minority and disadvantaged groups and barriers in the education system. They could work with Traveller parents to overcome these barriers which, in turn, will increase participation at second and third level for Traveller students.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Ian. We will move on to our next speaker, Patrick Nevin.

Mr. Patrick Nevin:

I thank the Cathaoirleach, committee and everyone here today. When I got the opportunity to come here to speak today, I made a conscious decision to stay away from statistics regarding the very pertinent issues that have impacted on Travellers' daily lives since the foundation of the State. I knew representatives from the Traveller community and allies would speak about that.

In 2017, the State decided, led by the then Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, to acknowledge Traveller ethnicity. The quest by Traveller activists and allies for the call on the State to give due recognition and ethnic status to Travellers was a major hill to climb. At times, they were ridiculed and accused of following a pure folly in calling on the State to give ethnic status to Travellers. However, it happened.

I was present here that night and it was one of the proudest moment of my life as a Traveller man and activist who has been involved in Traveller activism all my life, but in particular in a professional capacity over the past 24 or 25 years. This is a personal issue for Travellers across the generations. My father passed away in June 2017, but witnessed the acknowledgement of ethnicity. I remember having a conversation with him and he said to me in a very stoic manner that, "Well, at least we amount to something". It was an extremely positive outcome for Travellers.

If we are to push forward from the success of 2017 in regard to ethnicity, the next and most natural step is for the State to give a State apology for the process of othering, segregation and anti-Travellerism since the formation of the State.

If I am correct with my dates, it was signed into play on 6 December 1921 and began to paddle its own canoe in 1922. From 1922 to approximately 1961, we saw various Dáil and local authority reports. We saw the introduction of a particular piece of legislation that had an anti-Traveller sentiment, namely, section 20 of the Local Government Act 1925, which gave local authorities the absolute power to move, evict and displace those who tended to dwell in tents or vans on the margins of the roadside. This was a piece of ethnic profiling at a legislative level. That is one example. Between 1922 and 1961, we saw the language of othering, segregation and discrimination in the halls of power at local, national and electoral level. Various individuals from various backgrounds and political persuasions used anti-Traveller sentiment in their election campaigns to seek success.

The next stage for the Government and State following recognition of ethnicity is an apology. We need a State apology. Ms Maughan raised the spectre of the Commission on Itinerancy that was set up in 1961 and published its report in August 1963. I want to give a snippet on this because it is an important document. It is extremely pertinent for us as a people, a community and a nation within a nation. The report was published in August 1963. Something interesting happened in 1961 and 1962. The writer and sociologist Hannah Arendt followed the case of Adolf Eichmann, who was one of the key players in the Wannsee Conference that took place in 1942 in Germany where they came up with the "final solution to the Jewish problem". She published a book in 1963, The Banality of Evil, in which she wrote of following the trial of Adolf Eichmann and about this individual. He was just your ordinary everyday human being. He was just a bureaucrat. He was just an individual who wanted to be successful in his career. He happened to join the Nazis and subsequently he became one of the key players in that absolutely catastrophic and horrific period of time.

The language used at the Wannsee Conference shows up in the Commission of Itinerancy's report. The language of othering and segregation appears in the document. We, as a nation, a people and a society, need to question how this document came into play and how in the following decades it played into the creation of this us and them and superior versus inferior mentality and the idea that the settled sedentary population are the true heirs to the Irish nation while the Traveller "tinker" population are somehow a failed settled people and, therefore, need to be rehabilitated and, indeed, incarcerated in some cases to be brought back into the fold. If the State is genuine, and I believe there are fantastic people among the various political persuasions on the committee and throughout Ireland, the next stage is a State apology. That is pretty much where I am at. I thank the committee.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is an educational day. Mr. Nevin has brought education to the floor this afternoon. I will not comment on everyone's speech but his was remarkable and it is a piece of history that everybody needs to hear.

Our next speaker is Ms Emma Ward. Ms Ward is a Traveller woman and disability activist.

Ms Emma Ward:

I thank the committee for having me here today to speak about my experiences of being a disabled Irish Traveller. While I speak about my own experiences, I am only one person of the intersectionality between the Irish Traveller community and the disabled people community. There are a lot more issues that disabled people in this intersectionality face which need to be spoken about but, for today, I have come to speak on several issues that are very important to me.

One of the biggest issues that needs to be addressed - something needs to be done about it - is the fact that not a lot of people with disabilities are at the table where the decisions are being made. Their voice needs to be heard too. How are we meant to make Ireland more inclusive for everyone if we do not include these views and voices? Disabled people in general, and especially Irish Traveller disabled people, are always forgotten about.

Thankfully, since October 2023, I have become a board member of the Mincéirs Whiden organisation. This means that I can bring my voice and unique view to its discussions and help make sure that when it is making important decisions disabled people are included. However, apart from that organisation, I am, as far as I know, he only wheelchair user at these discussions at any level, which is not right. There are so many different types of voices within the intersectionality that deserve to be heard and have equal representation. We need to have all these voices and views in mind at the big table to ensure that Irish society is inclusive and no one is forgotten about.

The next issue I want to discuss is how disabled Irish Travellers especially, and disabled people in general, need more access to services and supports. It is very hard. I have a personal assistant who is with me today. It took me 18 months to get that support. This brings me to the ongoing issue with the personal assistance scheme, which is awful. In Ireland, PAs are not seen as a basic human right or an essential support to people with disabilities, although they most certainly are. PAs provide so many different kinds of support that make it possible for service users such as me to live better lives. In my case, I have my PA for social outings like today because I love my independence and she helps me achieve it. Without her support, I would not be able to pursue my activism or education, or try to make the changes I believe should be made.

One of the major issues is the lack of funding from the Government. Personal assistance scheme workers are fighting hard to resolve this through restoring the link between HSE workers and HSE-funded organisations. Due to these unresolved issues, there is always uncertainty when it comes to planning trips because I know that at any time my PA could potentially not be able to assist me due to the shortages caused by a lack of funding. This causes a lot of worry for me because I do not want to lose my independence which I fought so hard to get.

It is not just me who faces this worry either; it is the thousands of people with disabilities who rely on these services so much more than I do. It will be they who are negatively impacted by any disruptions. I have a great family who support me in everything I do. I love my independence and I should not have to worry about losing the essential support my PA gives me. The Government needs to make having a personal assistant a basic human right so people with disabilities will not be stranded without this essential support and, instead, will be able to live more independent and fulfilled lives with the invaluable support the PA provides. Please help make these important changes and do not forget about disabled people, especially disabled Irish Travellers. Thank you for listening and for having me here today.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank everyone for their contributions. This has been a very important day. I have been sitting here looking at people and listening to them speak. People watching will say they are the "good Travellers". They are all the good ones who do not cause any old fights or get into any trouble. We are all the "good Travellers". Some of us may be "settled Travellers" as people tend to put us in boxes. We have the working class, the middle class and the upper class. Even in our community we have rich Travellers, not so rich Travellers and extremely poor Travellers. People do not see this.

It is not my job in the Chair to correct anybody but I cannot stand the term “settled Traveller” that was used today. I am a Traveller. I was born and reared on a halting site and I am absolutely okay with that. I am okay with being different. I want to be different. Being a member of the Traveller community makes me unique. I think we should all celebrate our uniqueness within Irish society, let that be as a person of colour, a disabled person or an LGBTQI+ person. We have gay people in the Traveller community, as well as intersectionality, neither of which we spoke about at all today. I just wanted to shine a light on that intersectionality.

In June 2017, before he died, Patrick’s father said, “We amount to something." That breaks my heart. RoseMarie Maughan spoke about her experience in the taxi. I have had a negative experience in a taxi while a serving politician. All us of us in these Houses, all of these young people here today, are all something. We are human beings and in Irish society we should be treated like human beings. In my first opening statement I said we were waiting 30 years to be part of these Houses. We were waiting decades and decades, not just 30 years. I was having the banter with Martin Collins earlier about being a Traveller activist for 40 years - how tiring. We get burnt out.

I wish to move on. Three weeks ago, I was rushed to Letterkenny hospital because my lung collapsed. I did not know my lung had collapsed; I thought I had a chest infection. I got a gown and was told my lung had collapsed. We talk about health statistics within the Traveller community. I am 34 years of age. However, it brings me to a different point. Not one doctor was an Irish doctor. They were Muslims, they were black, they were from India and different parts of the world, such as the Middle East. I thought, “Oh my God. These people are saving my life.” They are saving the racists’ lives as well. If you are a racist who does not like the blacks and you go into hospital, the colour of the person’s skin does not matter. That person is saving your life even though you are a racist.

We have hate crime legislation that only has to go through the next Stage. It is unfortunate that some political parties have done a U-turn on this vital legislation that needs to be passed for our community and all minority groups now more than ever. We heard Ms Muntean, a member of the Roma community, state that Roma women’s lives are at threat even walking their children to school. Muslim women find it difficult walking up our Irish streets. We have the legislation. We need the political will. This is one step forward. It is not hate crime speech legislation because we are not talking away the racism - that will never be done away with. We are not telling people not to call us names going down the street. A person will not go to jail for calling me a “scummy knacker”. That will not put a person to jail. Rather, what will deservedly put a person in jail is burning down people’s accommodation while we are in a homeless crisis. The hate crime legislation is not about locking people up; it is about education, which is what we should be focusing on. We need it. It is collective action. It is not only for our community; it is for LGBTQI+ people, people with disabilities and people of colour - black and brown people. We see refugee camps getting burnt. Traveller accommodation has always been getting burnt. Even during the pandemic, houses were burnt in Galway. If that is not hatred, I do not know what is - end of story. That is where this Government can put in this change next week. It is already there. We talk about small wins. Straightaway, it can pass that legislation that will give us all a little sense of protection within Irish society and will give us, the others, that little piece of protection.

The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, said to me a few weeks ago in passing conversation that there will be a stand-alone Traveller mental health strategy. I will follow up on that. I know we were just talking and it is not on record. However, I believe with all my heart that she wants better facilities for Travellers’ mental health. However, what I believe and actions are horses of different colours. We have 84 recommendations but nobody is held accountable for those recommendations not being implemented. The can gets kicked. We have so many Ministers. There have been three Ministers with responsibility for Traveller accommodation since I have been in the Seanad. You build up a relationship with one of them and then they are gone, and you have to start all over again and try to build up a relationship with another. Then there is the Minister for housing and there are Ministers for health and mental health. There are many Ministers and not enough action in Irish society in general.

RoseMarie Maughan spoke about young people in our community dying through suicide. We are not talking about addiction. We are not talking about the young Traveller men in their early 30s who are like the walking dead, to quote Mags Casey from a conference we had two days ago. There is an epidemic of drugs and alcohol addiction within our community and we cannot stop it by ourselves. We need a mental health strategy that will help our community to thrive. Every person in this Chamber who is a member of the Traveller community knows somebody right now who is really struggling with their mental health and knows somebody who is addicted to drugs or alcohol. I know it is because of racism and discrimination. Sure, as Travellers, we do not want the work and we do not need the money. Of course we want the work if given the opportunity. My big daddy, Lord have mercy upon him - we called my grandfather “big daddy” - used to say that if Travellers were clever enough, we would run the Dáil. What he meant by that was if we had the opportunities, we would be successful.

The Taoiseach, Deputy Harris, did good work with higher and further education for our community, to be fair and give credit where credit is due. I have great faith in the Taoiseach when it comes to driving the policies for equality for Travellers in this country. However, again, it is the actions. The actions do not match and there is nobody to hold to account. We have Ministers in the Lower House of Leinster House. These are people who got in here off the back of land being too valuable for the Travellers. One poster said, “We are not going to build a halting site for Travellers”. This kind of hatred and discrimination we have from the top down is absolutely scandalous and should not be accepted.

I know I am going on but there are so many issues. While we move forward very slowly, there are many issues that need to be addressed. We are all a wee bit burnt out - there is the Donegal, the “wee bit” - when it comes to that driving for change because it feels like we are driving but we are not reaching the destination where we need to be. We need that destination to be equality of opportunity. Last week, I said my little girl, Billie, wants to be a doctor. That could change because she is only four years old. Lacey wants to be a doctor for dogs, so she wants to be a vet. She is only two. I want my children to have equality of opportunity, and I want my brother’s children to have equality of opportunity as well. I want to get rid of addiction within our community and get the services we deserve as a community. We do not need these things; we deserve them. We deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Most importantly, as a community we deserve to thrive. We deserve to go up in Irish society instead of down. I open up the door, go out and get into my little blue car to come here, and I see nothing but the mental health crisis on Labre Park halting site.

I see nothing but addiction and there is little or nothing by way of intervention. We have been failed over and over again and this Government can now do something about that. Next week, with the support of Sinn Féin, the Social Democrats, and the Labour Party, we can get the hate crime legislation across the line. We need that legislation to feel protected within Irish society.

Our next speaker is Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh. It is brilliant to see people being successful and reaching their full potential. We are going to have a few more doctors in our community, which we heard about today. I am honoured to give Dr. McDonagh the floor.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

It is very hard to follow what you said and I do not feel I should. However, this morning on "Morning Ireland", they talked about a young man in Limerick who had beaten, a young Brazilian man. Recently, they talked about the man from Croatia. Although there is no hierarchy, and I mean no disrespect to the presenters, they spoke as if racism was a new phenomenon in Ireland. While we all offer sympathy and solidarity to those two young men, yesterday near Mountjoy Square, I saw two Roma women and two girls, probably between the ages of 11 and 15, being verbally abused and almost physically abused and two other women, who I presume were settled Irish, had to intervene and call An Garda Síochána.

There is not much more I can say that has not been said already on this momentous day. As an older Traveller, I commend and congratulate people on the quality of some of the inputs from very young Travellers. They were incredible and not just insightful or political. Some of them were really sensitive and that pays tribute to the kind of people we are.

The Cathaoirleach spoke about being worn out and jaded. Over lunch, I spoke with Ms Burke and Ms O'Donoghue from Cork. We are all middle-aged women and it is very hard to tell the same story with new words.

As a playwright, my job is to witness, observe and document. Each time you sit down to write a new play, you are still playing with the small old tropes of racism and the discrimination. While some of us are lucky enough to move up to the echelons of academia, arts, and business, it is not enough just to have one or two of us. There needs to be more.

In closing, I wish to say that we are very proud of the Cathaoirleach. From one woman to another, I am very proud. When I see the Cathaoirleach sitting there running the show, I think she is one of us. She managed to pull all this together. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. McDonagh for her input. For years and years, through human rights and equality organisations, Dr. McDonagh has done amazing work with us as a community. That is what we use it for, that is, working for the Travellers, the good doers and helping the poor Travellers, God help us. We can help ourselves. If given the opportunity, we do not need the good doers. We can help ourselves.

Maybe I should not do this, but I am going to do it. I wish to extend this for two minutes. I know Deputies from the Social Democrats and Sinn Féin might want to come in and we have to give time for members but, for anyone who did not get the opportunity to speak, if he or she wishes to speak, he or she can raise a hand.

I knew well that Mr. Collins would raise his hand. I invite Mr. Collins to speak.

Mr. Martin Collins:

I thank the Chair. I never thought I would be in the same space where members of our own community would be referring to each other as doctors and Senators in the same space at the same time. I think that is indicative of some of the progress that we have made over the last 30 or 40 years. As the Chair and indeed other contributors have rightly pointed out, there remains a lot of challenges and obstacles in terms of realising our full potential and having our rights fully vindicated by the Irish State.

Up to this point - and I have to be quite blunt - we have been failed by the State and by successive governments which have failed to address the institutional, structural and individual racism that Travellers experience in this society. We see the manifestations of that in terms of the low educational attainment, the high unemployment rate, and the health inequalities that other people have spoken about. I am sorry that I could not be here this morning as I had two prior commitments but I am sure these issues have been elaborated on.

I agree with Mr. Nevin and other speakers who talked about an apology and an acknowledgement of that oppression, colonisation, and persecution going back over centuries. I think it is actually much more than apology; I would call for a truth and reconciliation commission. Our story needs to be told and heard. That ongoing oppression, persecution, and our children being routinely taken into care and given to settlers as a way of getting rid of Traveller culture and identity needs to be acknowledged by the State. There can never be any healing unless the truth is acknowledged, that is, that truth that has been going on for hundreds of years.

I mention the racism that people spoke about and that Pancake spoke about. It is really appropriate that I call Dr. McDonagh Pancake in this setting as I feel very strongly about our nicknames, our cultural nuances and the attachments to nicknames in our community. She is right; there is a normalisation of that racism. When you listen to programmes like "Morning Ireland" or read the newspapers, they speak about it as if it was a new issue. That is an example of the racism we experience where we are actually denied that we experience racism, both at the individual and institutional level.

It is really important to be optimistic. While it is important that Senator Flynn has been nominated by the Taoiseach to the Seanad Éireann, and hopefully that trend will continue, we cannot rely on that alone. We need to be more politically organised and politically savvy. We need to encourage a lot more Travellers. I see Mr. Stokes here and Pancake stood for Seanad Éireann. We need to see a lot more Travellers standing as candidates in local, general and European elections and becoming members of different political parties, or indeed standing as Independents. That is what we need to be doing.

In addition of that, and linked to Senator Flynn's appointment, we also need to see a reserved seat for the Traveller community in our national Parliament. It has happened for other indigenous ethnic groups right across the globe, for example, the Sámi, the Roma in Romania, aboriginal people, and the Mari people. Precedents have been set and there is no reason we cannot have it here if there was political will to do it.

Finally, despite the hundreds and hundreds of years of colonisation and oppression, there is an inner strength and resilience that we have actually survived against all odds.

The fact we are here in this Chamber talking about our lived experience is a testament to that. We are strong, resilient people and I will finish with this little anecdote. I spoke to Patrick Nevin about this in the yard of Pavee Point not too long ago when we were having a bit of a chit-chat. My father passed away in 2010. He never went to school in his life. He could not read or write. In fact, he never had a watch on his wrist and could never tell the time. However, he was an extremely smart man and I learned more from my father than I did at school. I finished primary school in Finglas at 12 years of age. It was the norm back in the 1980s to not go on to higher education. Thankfully, things are changing. I used to go hawking - buying and selling - with my father and we would go door to door. We also did the markets and the fairs. My father, and a lot of Traveller men, always had this word, "boss". " How are you boss? How are you getting on today, boss?" when we would go to that house of a settler or into the farmer's yard trying to sell his wares and tears from the back of the van. I was growing up and wondering why he was calling the settlers "boss"? Was that a bit of internalised oppression to see settled people as being superior and we must aspire to that? I thought that for years and then one day we had a chat about it when I came of age and was able to have a chat with him. I asked him why he called them "boss"? What he said was very profound. He said he calls them boss because he is letting them think they are in control and smarter than him.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Mr. Martin Collins:

He said his aim in the game was to sell whatever he had in the back of the van, get a few bob off them and get out of the yard. That is an example of being smart and strategic and is how we have survived collectively as a people for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Last, I will talk about the hate speech legislation. This is really important legislation. Ireland is an outlier in the European Union in not having robust, effective legislation dealing with hate speech and hate crime. It is absolutely a load of nonsense for political parties and others to say that this is an interference and impediment to free speech. It is not. Free speech is sacrosanct. Free speech is protected. It is a cornerstone of our democracy. This is about putting legislation on the Statute Book that protects vulnerable groups from hate crime and hate speech. We have had trailers - we call them trailers, not caravans by the way - burned and vandalised by vigilante groups with a racist motivation. There has been no accountability. I know of ten houses that were allocated to Travellers and that have been burned in the past 15 years. Not one single person was brought before the courts or held to account for those racially-motivated attacks.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Martin Collins. Actually, today is my father's birthday, may the Lord have mercy on him. It brought me right back to when daddy was in the markets and the word "boss" and you would think, why are we calling people that? It was strategic. It was about being nice and being strategic, as I say plámás. Be very kind to get what you want, "Yes, three bags full" and get out. It was all about the greed and getting money.

I am not putting Hughie and John on the spot. Because I have respect for the elderly, I left Martin with an extra few minutes. I am only messing . I withdraw that comment. If anybody who has not spoken would like to speak it is up to them. This is the last opportunity, if I do not see any hands. No? Here is another Pavee Point worker. Go on.

Mr. Hughie Collins:

Hi, my name is Hughie and I am an education officer for Pavee Point. I will make this short and sweet. Education is foremost in what is going on.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will you say your name for the Official Report?

Mr. Hughie Collins:

I am Hughie Collins. Education is foremost in getting rid of discrimination and racism from settlers against Travellers. Education has to start in the early years with anti-racism training and cultural awareness training. Sorry if I stutter, I was not expecting to speak. With education comes fair employment, from fair employment comes health, and from health comes justice in Ireland. That is it, short and sweet.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well done. Speak now or forever hold your peace. I am only messing. Do any of the Members present wish to speak? Deputy O'Reilly would like to speak and Deputy Catherine Murphy also.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not have anything written down or prepared but I wanted to speak. Mr. Martin Collins used the word "boss" and I think it is great that Senator Flynn is the boss today. I know she will keep me in time. When I was growing up, my mam and dad used to always tell me they raised me to be decent. They are decent people themselves. In my house we acknowledged and recognised that it was the last form of acceptable racism and it was not tolerated in my house. When I stand back and think about it, the extent of it shocks me. When we hear people talk about racism now, it is as though we have only just encountered it or it has only just come to our shores. It has not. Days like this are important when we acknowledge that institutional racism and when we remind ourselves, as parliamentarians, that we need to not just acknowledge it is there but to confront it. When I was growing up, I was told it is not enough to just be anti-racist myself but that you must go out, speak and stand up. You cannot be the person in the WhatsApp group who just mutes the conversation but does not call it out. You cannot be the person in the room when someone tells a racist joke. You have to be the person who raises your hand and while that is tough, it is in no way any tougher than the experiences that were outlined today. Days like this are important. When we get to the stage of not having to have days like this, that also will be very important. That will be an important place for us to go. Visibility and inclusion are important but also for us as settled people it is important we do not just say, "Well, I am not racist and that is all right"; we have to be actively anti-racist. It is lovely to see so many young people - I am looking at Latisha and James and others here - who will be the next generation to hand the baton to. I hope things will be slightly better and it is always lovely to see Senator Flynn but it is especially good to see her in the Chair and in charge of proceedings today. I thank her for indulgence.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Likewise, Deputy. There are young people here who are part of political parties. It is critically important we create spaces and that political parties create those spaces. We know of two members who are present, one of whom, Mr. James Stokes, is a member of Sinn Féin, while Mr. Ian McDonagh is a member of Fianna Fáil. It is so important and there are some Travellers who are members of the Social Democrats, Labour and Fine Gael. For me, Independents work with our community but we are not just to be "Travellers" or "the Traveller politician". We are "Travellers, who are". I am a Senator who happens to be from the Traveller community and that is always to the heart of it. I live and breathe the community I am from, which is Labre Park, and I do not pretend I represent 40,000 Travellers. I would not represent Travellers if they were on the news. I remember getting telephone calls from the media during Covid saying there was a wedding. I said I did not hear about that and as I was not at the wedding, asked what they wanted me to do about it. Again, there is this thing where if my family is no good, then I am not much better. It is so important to stop the good Traveller and let us be part of political parties and get the jobs in the local shops. Travellers want to be a part of Irish society and deserve to be. Deputy Catherine Murphy is next.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Flynn. She is a force of nature. She made sure we were all very well aware of this meeting happening and encouraged us all to attend. I am delighted to be here. I represent the Social Democrats in the Kildare North constituency.

There is a cliché, and clichés serve a purpose, that you cannot be what you cannot see. The fact that Senator Flynn is here is important but it is not enough on its own and that has been said. However, it is an important breakthrough. Traveller issues have been much more to the fore because Senator Flynn has been here. That is testament to the importance of that continuing and expanding. I take the point Mr. Martin Collins made about people contesting elections. That is absolutely the case, but people should also put their names on the electoral register because when people take out the electoral register to go and canvas and so on, they are acutely aware of where they are going to go. If there are whole areas that do not have people on the electoral register, they do not get the attention they need. That is the kind of thing that should be encouraged. It is basic but it is important with respect to the political system.

The political system is often complicated and difficult to understand and people switch off. That is so for the vast majority of people. The more you understand of the system, the more you can engage with it. Sometimes electoral politics is not for people, but understanding the system is important to make sure people can engage, lobby and make sure their voices are heard.

The point that was made about education is important as it is the route out. I am acutely aware of, for example, the statistics on health outcomes and the deplorable suicide rates. When you start looking at such things, you have to look at the origins. It is not them alone. Why are they happening? You have to go back to the cause rather than focusing on what could be described as a symptom. It is important that those issues are addressed, not only when they end up being flashpoints. They need to be addressed in a strategic way, with the community and not on behalf of or for it. If you do not have that kind of input, you are not addressing the issues in the way they need to be addressed. It is important that there is that kind of deeper engagement.

It is a pleasure to have the witnesses here and have this opportunity. I hope we will see more people like Senator Flynn in the Seanad, the Dáil and in council chambers. There will be an opportunity in a few weeks to see some of those breakthroughs.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Deputy Cronin like to contribute? She tried to do so this morning.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, this is my third attempt. Third time lucky.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will give the Deputy an extra 30 seconds.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have 30 seconds, do I?

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Extra.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not have anything prepared because I really came to show solidarity. I am the Sinn Féin TD for the Kildare North constituency. I am not only the TD for Kildare North, but also the special driver for our local election candidate, James Stokes, who is in the Gallery. I brought him in this morning and I will bring him home this evening. I have an important job, on top of being a TD.

I am delighted to see Rose Marie Maughan here. I have always said that any time I listen to her on a podcast, I stop. I was finishing up a few things in my office just now and I saw her come up on the screen so I listened. What she has to say gets rights to the point. She always does. She has that special gift. I thank her for using her voice on behalf of her people, women, women Travellers and mothers of Traveller children. It is great to hear her. I do not want to speak for too long because this is about giving Travellers the floor.

I am just here to say that I heard most of the speakers today and Sinn Féin in Kildare is delighted to have a Traveller standing for the local elections. I was a member of the local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, in Kildare County Council. It was a proactive committee. It was all women. Five women were on the committee, comprising three Sinn Féin representatives and two Labour Party representatives. We were a good left-wing group and we did our best. I remember talking to Kildare County Council because Travellers would often come to the Curragh and all the local representatives would give out about the mess they would leave behind. As a member of the LTACC, I asked why there was no special designated area in the Curragh. The Curragh is huge. There is plenty of room to have a designated area for Travellers. If we recognise Traveller ethnicity, we have to recognise all their ethnicity. There is a hint in the name "Traveller". Travellers like travelling. There should be a seasonal space in the Curragh where people can come and stay and have showers, running water and sanitary facilities and so on. I got awful pushback and it was said to me - in private so I will not say who it was - that if Kildare did that, all the Travellers would come from all over the country. I said they would not do so if every county did it. That would be a good idea. There should be an area so that during good periods of weather in order that Travellers can stay in touch with that aspect of their ethnicity.

It is great to see Ms Latisha McCrudden here as well. I have met her a few times. It is great to see young people and women doing well. No offence to all the men who have been experts for so many years. It is great to see women Traveller activists speaking out. When you sort things out for women, you sort things out for everyone because women will not forget their children whether they are boys are girls. They will make sure things are right for all of them. That is all I will say because today is about giving Travellers the floor.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important that I say that when I was running in the elections, I got cross-party support. Many of my supporters were from Sinn Féin, while I was nominated by the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin. I had a gut feeling that if Deputy Martin got in, that I would get the seat. I believed in him and my father was a big fan of Micheál Martin. We would be sent down to vote. It is not that way any more. It is strange. People may have the illusion that we do not vote and do not want to vote. My father always voted. I was sent to vote. Back then I had to vote for Fianna Fáil. I had my own political preferences as I got older and learned about policies and so on. It is important to know that we are not eejits. If we were eejits we would not be here. We vote and we value the political system, but we want to be included in it. We have to encourage more Travellers to vote.

As Mr. Martin Ward said earlier, we have always recycled. We talk about recycling now, but it is something Travellers have always done. I was reared in Athy markets, recycling clothes. Daddy and Mammy sold clothes, bric-a-brac, second-hand shoes and books in the market. I remember it was five books for £1 or one book for 20p. That is going back. We have come a long way as a community but by God, we have a longer way to go for equality of opportunity.

It is important when we talk about women's equality that we include Traveller women but we always talk about men at the top. I have never seen a Traveller man or a person of colour being a Minister. It is important that we acknowledge that today, as well as the suicide rates in our community for both men and women.

I have a short closing statement, but perhaps Deputy Ó Cuív would like to add something first. He is welcome.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Today was very educational for us and that is important. The challenges are enormous. One thing I have found in politics - and I am at it a long time - is that as soon as you solve one problem, another problem appears on the horizon. That goes right across life.

However, that does not justify not trying to solve problems continuously. We need to consider what overall progress we have made. There certainly has been progress but I have also seen regression. One of the things I greatly regret is that, as has been explained so often today, Travellers were very busy people who had trades and employment and we, the settled community, closed the door to a lot of that. No effort was made to replace and use the talent. That was an enormous mistake.

The priest who built Knock Airport against the odds was Monsignor James Horan. He used to talk about the MAD fight, which beats all of us all the time. He did not mean "mad" but rather it was an acronym meaning maximum administrative delay, MAD. You can come up against that when you are trying to change things and all of us have. There is an inertia in the system at which you must constantly push. However, when I look at Knock Airport today, I think that Monsignor Horan overcame the MAD fight because he built it. We have to continue to fight inertia. Sometimes there is goodwill to change but no action. We have to convert that goodwill into action.

Another thing I have found in life is that it is easy to prejudge who is going to help and who is not. It is easy to assume you will not get any help from this person, people from that party or whoever else. The Irish phrase, "Is fánach an áit a bhfaighfeá gliomac", translates literally as, "You find lobsters in strange places." The meaning of the phrase is that you often find that the person you least expect to help turns out to be the most supportive. If I might say so, sometimes you find those who you thought would be of a lot of help are not so supportive. It is absolutely vital to reach out to everybody, without exception. As I said, I think our guests might be surprised at times by both sides of that particular coin and will be surprised by the doors that will open and the people who will support a just set of issues that we need to tackle.

The point was made earlier that people would have hoped our guests would not be gathered here. I would qualify that and say that people would have hoped they would not be gathered here with a shopping list of problems. I would hope that the Traveller community would retain its identity as Irish Travellers and that our guests would be here celebrating their identity. I would hope that the list of challenges with which they would be trying to deal would be far shorter and the list of things they would be celebrating would be longer.

Senator Flynn has done an outstanding job as the Cathaoirleach of the committee and the staff have been absolutely fantastic in organising this day and bringing our guests to the centre of Irish politics and looking at this side of the House. I hope many Travellers will sit as Senators or TDs in the future. I spent three and a half years in the Seanad and have spent 30 years in the Dáil and until today, I never chaired a committee meeting.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Joyce wants to speak for a moment. From the bottom of my heart, I thank Deputy Ó Cuív for all of his hard work. He genuinely wants to do the best with, and not for, our community. I thank all the committee members. Deputy Stanton is also passionate about Traveller equality. Even when representatives of organisations come before us, Deputy Ó Cuív puts it up to them. He does a better job than I do because I can be a bit afraid sometimes. The Deputy is willing to call for an end to pilot programmes and it is great to have that. Mr. Joyce will have the last word before I move to closing statements.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. It is fitting that I opened and will now close the meeting. As we have all contributed, we have also listened to the politicians, including Ministers, from across all political parties. It is more important for politicians than our community to note that it is only in recent times that Travellers have had the right to vote. It is also important to note that one of the first candidates to run for election was Nan Joyce. She could not rely on her community to vote because they were not registered when they had no fixed abode. We have come far, as is evidenced by today's meeting, but that journey has been a long time coming. I know we could have filled this Chamber three times over. There are people in our community who could do a far better job in terms of leadership at national and local level. We have experience of injustice and that resonates with how other communities are mistreated.

We should not have to vote in order to vindicate our rights. Nobody should expect that because we do not have that confidence our rights should be lesser. That is important. I heard what the politicians indicated in respect of registration to vote. I do vote and have voted, and it is important for us to do so. There are others in our community, however, who may not and have not voted, and that should not mean we do not have access to education, running water, sanitation and electricity. Our participation should not be lesser.

On legislation, equality and human rights, it is important that the political parties across the Government ensure that equality in human rights. The hate speech legislation, in which we have great confidence, should not be lesser and should not be changed. It should, in fact, be to the forefront. That is important, as was said earlier. I thank the Cathaoirleach for her contribution and for her leadership.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As Mr. Martin Ward said earlier, we are a strong community despite the racism and discrimination, and the fewer opportunities available to us and previous generations. We see that inequality every day. John in the restaurant always asks if I have brought in my family yet. I realised today that I do not have one relation in the room so that if anything happens, no one is related to me. I am only messing. I am unfortunate that my parents died very young and I will never have the opportunity to bring them into Leinster House. It is brilliant to have members of our community here and being articulate. I would not expect anything less.

As Mr. Ward said earlier, we always had to get by. Even here, as a Senator, I get a little burnt out. By that, I mean I get a little tired because I am constantly banging tables and talking about issues that the generations before us, including the likes of Nan Joyce, were banging on about. We are still banging on about them today. We are usually protesting outside the grounds of Leinster House or being stopped coming in. Today has been such a special day. As a community, we are sometimes weakened and get bad media coverage or press around us. We have remarkable strength. Today has been an historic day and we are an historic community of people.

We as a community need to keep standing together and standing beside each other, not behind each other, even though a lot of us do have different political opinions. Not every single one of the 40,000 Travellers on the island think the same. It is important we get this message out there. I hope today changed one person's mind in this House and beyond, and at an international level. Not only should our voices be heard, our voices should be of equal value in Irish society. It is okay to be different and we are different. This is why we got the recognition as Irish Travellers. It is okay and let us embrace that and celebrate that. Let us continue to grow in strength after strength as a community. We are not the problem in Irish society. Unfortunately, Irish society is the problem and it has dramatic impact on the well-being of our community overall. It gives me great hope and energy today to see young people coming up, being very articulate and wanting to try within society.

I thank you all so much again. The clerks to the committee are just absolutely fantastic. I could not work with a better group of people. Sometimes the clerk can be very serious and then he has me beside him messing and joking, but you must be yourself. If you can be anything in the world, be yourself and let us embrace that. People say, "Eileen, you are a breath of fresh air." I come in here as a member of the Traveller community. I crack jokes with the ushers, with other politicians, with the kitchen staff and I enjoy the work. It is not about the seriousness of it all of the time. It is also okay to be you.

I hope we will continue to thrive as a community and that we will see more doctors, more members of An Garda Síochána, and more professional footballers within our community. People say, "If you cannot see it, you cannot be it." There is so much out there you can see and want to be but, unfortunately, you do not have the opportunities. We have, however, come a long way in 40 years. It took us nearly 40 years to get recognised as an ethnic minority group. It might take us the next ten or 20 years to get that State apology. Again, we deserve to heal as a community and we deserve to go forward as a community. Thank you all so much.

I will be at the launch of another strategy next week. It is a strategy on Traveller issues again so I will not be here next week. We will adjourn this committee now until a private meeting next Thursday, 25 April, 2024.