Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones.

Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means they have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by them, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in a member having his or her online access removed.

The purpose of the first session of today's meeting is to receive a briefing on tote licensing issues in respect of harness racing. From the Irish Harness Racing Association, IHRA, the committee will hear from Mr. Mark Flanagan, chairman; Mr. George McCullough, director; and Mr. Gunner LaCour, president. They are very welcome to the committee meeting. Their opening statement has been circulated to members. I will allow the witnesses five minutes to comment on that statement and we will then to proceed to a question and answer session. As is usual, Mr. Flanagan's opening statement is very comprehensive and detailed. It would take longer than five minutes to read but I will give him five minutes to give a briefing and we will then go into questions and answers. That way, we will probably get more to the heart of where we want to go. I have met the IHRA on a number of occasions over the term of this Dáil and the previous Dáil. It is always very professional in the way it presents its case. Its opening statement this evening is no different.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

As chairperson of the IHRA, I come before the committee to advocate for a simple decision that would hold economic potential and cultural significance for Ireland. This is the granting of a tote licence to our long-established sport of harness racing.

The IHRA thanks the committee for the opportunity to discuss our tote licence application. I will provide an update and detail the ongoing development and progress of the industry since we last had the opportunity to meet the committee. Its confirmation of support for the Irish harness racing industry is duly noted.

Our objectives are simple and straightforward. We want our sport to be self-financing. We are not looking for a handout. Rather, we want to be able to raise funds through a tote to build harness racing in Ireland. We want to grow our sport. We want to link in with harness racing in Europe and the US. We want to provide racetracks to encourage people who participate in illegal road racing onto properly run tracks. Members may question why we should be granted a tote licence, particularly as Irish harness racing may seem like a minor sport. However, this is why we think a tote licence would be beneficial to us. In Europe and the US, harness racing is seen as a major sport, even more than thoroughbred racing. Our aim is to reach the same level of validation. If we were granted this licence, I estimate that, in my lifetime, we would have five racetracks in Ireland and an industry supporting thousands of jobs, mainly in rural Ireland. We would become the breeding centre for trotting horses, as we already are for thoroughbreds.

Horse racing has been an integral part of our cultural heritage for centuries, intertwining tradition, sport and economic vitality. It is an industry that not only supports countless jobs but also sustains the livelihoods of breeders, trainers, jockeys and countless others within its ecosystem. However, to ensure continued growth and sustainability, we must adapt to the evolving landscape of the industry.

The IHRA has developed rapidly over the past ten years. In 2013, the association ran a total of 45 races, compared with a total of 330 races in the 2023 season. In 2014, the IHRA signed a breeding agreement with Le Trot, the French governing body for trotting in France. Since then, Le Trot has contributed more than €1.5 million into our sport to support our prize money. In 2015, the IHRA became members of the European Trotting Union, UET, and now the organisation has representation on several of their committees, making decisions with all European counterparts to improve aspects of our sport, including breeding, animal welfare, technical and gambling. In 2023, there were a total of 41,108 races ran across all the member states within the UET, with a combined total of €450 million in prize money. In Normandy alone, there are more than 50 trotting tracks. It attracts a younger audience than traditional racing and is a very family-oriented sport.

It is imperative to mention that illegal road racing or sulky racing on our road network is strongly condemned within the IHRA and is a forbidden activity under our rules for our members. We as a board do not have a solution to this problem but we believe we are an integral part of its solution. It is important to note that this illegal, antisocial activity is not seen in any other jurisdiction within the UET as they boast a well-developed network of racetracks and facilities dedicated to trotting races, providing legitimate opportunities for enthusiasts to participate, spectate and gamble. The presence of these facilities reduces the incentive for illegal road racing. However, in Ireland, there are fewer dedicated facilities for trotting racing, leading a minority of enthusiasts to resort to illegal activities for racing opportunities.

It is for this reason that we have begun to increase our footprint to reduce antisocial racing. This has been achieved by the IHRA acquiring land in Cork, with planning permission granted in the last quarter of last year; an all-weather hard track has been obtained and leased in Armagh; and we have identified a site for a new track in Dublin as a joint venture with one other local sporting organisation. We made an endowment application under the IIP scheme for the facility in Dublin.

The bottom line is that in order to become financially independent, we need to acquire a tote licence. In December 2021, the IHRA made a presentation to the Department of Finance and the then Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe.

The UET strides to make provision for an obligation through the legislative process at the European level, with levy rates suitable for all the member countries, with a 3% minimum on bets taken for races organised abroad and 8% for races organised in the country where the bets are recorded so that will be able to ensure that this sector, which together with thoroughbred racing provides 200,000 direct jobs in Europe, is able to continue its economic activity. In addition, the pari-mutuel or tote systems in operation among our UET members allow the respective governing bodies to increase the level of prize money such that it can attract enough competitors to generate a satisfactory level of bets. The integrity of competitions must be strictly monitored using sufficient human and material resources and through appropriate procedures.

Moreover, the economic benefits of such a decision cannot be overstated. The revenue generated from tote would not only bolster the horse racing industry but also contribute to the broader agricultural sector, providing much-needed support to farmers and rural communities across our island. It would stimulate investment, create jobs and drive economic growth in both urban and rural areas alike.

The breeding of the trotter is closely aligned to the success of the IHRA racing efforts and of their pari-mutuel systems which all our EU counterparts have, except for the IHRA. In Europe, there are approximately 200,000 trotting horses including 33,800 broodmares and 2,567 stallions to breed and approximately 22,900 foals born each year, which kick-starts each governing bodies future racing and production lines.

The IHRA had a market link case study carried out in 2017 at Dundalk Stadium. Four races on the card were streamed and available for gambling purposes through the French tote service. Nearly €900,000 was bet on these races in France. The IHRA received a return of a 3% commission to the tune of €27,000.

Should the IHRA be successful in obtaining this licence, we are ready to proceed to the next steps with the valued support of three strong partners. BetMakers is the global leader in terms of tote gambling software, providing a gambling platform which includes anti-money laundering and fraud components. They are experts in anti-money laundering as well as Know Your Customer and can provide improved safeguards for problem gambling that are currently available. Equine MediRecord is a global leader in equine welfare software and is leading a new equine database project for the IHRA. This company currently has horse welfare and anti-doping software used in Europe, US, Middle East and Asia. Le Trot, which is the governing body for the sport in France and has a turnover of €9 billion, is the largest European trotting regulator, which I mentioned already. It is investing in the Irish trotting industry and has pledged increased support for this project.

It is widely accepted that certain forms of gambling have a stronger association with gambling problems than others. Games of pure chance, such as lotteries, gambling machines and roulette, differ from games of skill factor, such as betting on horse racing. Betting on horse racing through totes is far less likely to lead to gambling harm because of the skill-based nature of the game involving comparisons of data at a relatively slow speed compared with repetitive games of chance, such as online casino gambling, which is designed for consumers to wager quickly. Tote betting causes far less harm than high-frequency online gambling as well as betting with illegal operators and should be differentiated with lower tax rates.

Trotting and the GAA both hold significant roles in rural communities in Ireland, albeit in different ways. While the GAA is deeply ingrained in Irish rural life as the custodian of Gaelic games like hurling and Gaelic football, trotting offers a unique sporting experience centred around harness racing. Like the GAA, trotting serves as a focal point for community engagement, pride and tradition in rural areas. Local trotting events bring together people of all ages, fostering a sense of camaraderie and belonging. Just as GAA clubs provide a platform for athletic competition and social interaction, trotting tracks and clubs offer a similar space for rural residents to gather, celebrate and support their local talent. Furthermore, both industries contribute to the economic vitality of rural communities. They create employment opportunities, attract visitors from neighbouring areas and stimulate local businesses such as pubs, restaurants and accommodations.

It is important to stress that the two main competitors to our industry in this country are greyhound racing and thoroughbred racing. As members are aware, both organisations are in receipt of Exchequer funding through the horse and greyhound racing fund. The latter is a fund that the IHRA fully supports. At this moment, we are not receiving any money from this fund. However, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine recognises us a form of horse racing.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I have to stop Mr. Flanagan there. I let him go well over time.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

I wish to read the last part and just thank the Minister.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Our lads will have read that, so we will go to questions and answers, and Mr. Flanagan can come in again. Before I go to members, Mr. Flanagan said they had 330 races. How many meetings was that?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

There were approximately 54 or 55 race meetings. It is an average of about seven races per meeting.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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At how many venues?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Three venues.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Cork, Dublin-----

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

They were in Cork, Dublin and the North of Ireland. I suppose Cork has a kind of-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry. Cork, Dublin and where?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

They were in Cork, Dublin and Armagh in Northern Ireland.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There was none in Dundalk.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

No. We did not have any in Dundalk in the past four years.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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For the benefit of the committee, for how long has the IHRA been requesting a licence?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We first engaged with the Department of Finance in 2016. The State gives out only two tote licences. It was probably 1928 when the tote licences were given out. When I first engaged, it was like, where do we go from here? It has been a long engagement and it-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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What barrier is there to giving a third licence?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

There is no barrier. No new legislation is needed. It is within the Minister's remit to give a tote licence to-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Was accommodation not found for a licence at Lifford dog track that was outside the norm?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Yes. We used that as an example. It is-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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What does the Department say to that?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We have not got a response but we met the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, which was very positive. He passed that on to his civil servants to progress but it has not progressed. We went through the Covid pandemic so there was a bit of a lull there, but we have re-engaged-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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But the fact that the IHRA has shown that it can attract money from pools outside the country surely confirms the argument for giving the licence.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

One thing about harness racing is that we have a ready-made market elsewhere. We can export our pictures to France, the US, Sweden and Norway. Our pictures would be more welcome than the thoroughbreds because there are more markets in Europe for harness racing and trotting than for thoroughbreds.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Flaherty.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the speakers for coming in. I agree with the Chair that the IHRA's submission is comprehensive.

There is one thing that is always queried. What is the DNA, the breeding, of the typical trotter?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

They are standardbred. The standardbred came from the thoroughbred. Messenger was one of the founding members of the thoroughbred, and all standardbreds can be traced back to the line through his son, Hambletonian. The only difference is the French trotter, which is 80% French trotter and 20% standardbred. All the DNA goes back to Hambletonian, which was a son of Messenger, which is one of the six founders of the-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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For the IHRA's stock, it would bring semen in from the Continent. Is that what it does?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

At the moment, the frozen semen comes in from the United States, so we have access to all the top stallions. The top stallions in-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Do you use AI, Mr. Flanagan?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We use frozen AI.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We cannot look at the IHRA in isolation from on-road sulky racing. Do they use similar breeding to harness racers or do they just use traditional cob with a thoroughbred cross?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

It is difficult for me to answer that but if I were to take a guess, every one of them would love to get passports. In order to get a passport, you have to go through DNA and DNA markers. They have to be purebred, so there is no difference in that regard. There is a strain of a coloured horse that comes from Australia and it is 1% of all standardbreds. Thoroughbreds have a strain of a grey horse. There is a strain that comes from Canada and Australia, which is black and white and which they kind of integrate. It is a purebred and it is integrated into the normal standardbred.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Flanagan referred to road racing. Does he think it is too optimistic to think we could encourage people who race on the road to come into a controlled setting and race on a track? They will have to look at a different stock of horse, will they not?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

There can be different levels of competition. As I mentioned in my summary, we do not have road racing in any other European country; it is unique to Ireland. What is the difference between Ireland and any other country in Europe? We do not have the facilities, we do not have the tracks and we do not have the investment. We have lacked that for so many years. Now we have this antisocial behaviour and we are looking to put plasters over it. We do not want to put plasters over these things. We need to invest in the sport. In thoroughbred, there is amateur racing of different types. In France they run a great amateur programme. It is different from the professionals. Different classes are run, so there is room for everybody.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want it to become all about the road-----

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

I understand.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses have done a lot and Mr. Flanagan has a very good story to tell. I would be supportive of the tote licence. I cannot see where the issue is. I think it is an opportunity for the IHRA to grow the sport. With road racing, an awful lot of money is bet on those races. If the IHRA had a tote facility, I think that would be an attraction as well. Thoroughbred is very much niche racing in Ireland, and I think Mr. Flanagan's sport is much more egalitarian. Anybody can own a harness racer, whereas you need money to own a racehorse.

As regards the French investment to date, the IHRA got €27,000, I think, from the Dundalk experience, which was very impressive. Are they investing money annually into Ireland now, or what is the level of French investment at the moment?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

This year, they are investing €290,000 towards prize money. It will bring their investment here closer to €1 million after this year, which is huge. George McCullough and I went to France the day of the lockdown in Paris. We met the PMU, which Mr. Chairman would know is the third biggest tote in the world. It is massive. We had an audience with the chairman of the PMU and the CEO of Le Trot there. They are very supportive of us. The words leaving that room were, "You get a tote and we will definitely come in behind you." It is a big opportunity for us. There are 23 countries in the UET and every one of them has a tote. We meet every year at the general assembly. We meet on other occasions. The same question is asked all the time: Have you got your tote? What is the problem? It is hard to answer each year.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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On that, I know that the IHRA met the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and has been getting favourable overtures. Is there a definitive response from the Department at this time?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We have looked for a meeting with the Minister, Deputy McGrath. We have spoken to his secretary and he is looking into where our submission is at the moment and to reignite it in some way.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We will follow up with the Minister, Deputy McGrath.

As regards the IHRA's tracks, it has acquired the land in Cork. That will be all-weather, similar to Armagh. Is that right?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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What is that? Asphalt?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

No. It is a kind of lime-based dust or lime grit. It would be 2 ml to 3 ml.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The IHRA has one in Dublin that it is doing in a joint venture. Aspirationally, Mr. Flanagan is saying five tracks in Ireland, is it?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Aspirationally, yes, I believe that five tracks, as the support grows, would be needed in order to service all areas. Before Croke Park was Croke Park, it was a trotting track. Up until 1937, trotting was held in Croke Park.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think they will let the trotting back. That might be too aspirational. On that point, we have some closed greyhound tracks. Are they too small for trotting?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

They are too small. The Department of agriculture looked at that in 2018, 2019, 2020 and they are too small.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Too small in width or just not long enough? The IHRA is looking at an 800 m track, is it?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

That is the minimum size. The international standard is 1,000 m. Some tracks are 2,000 m.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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It probably would not be wide enough anyway, would it?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

It would not be wide enough because it would have to be about 60 m wide.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The IHRA did not replicate the Dundalk experience after 2017.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

The Dundalk experience was to show you guys that there is a product there that could be bet on. We invited along people from the Department of agriculture. It was a tangible experience for them that they could see that this sport is a legitimate sport and can attract investment into the country. The French thoroughbred derby was on that day, and ours was the first international meeting on a Sunday evening shown in France, so we were the first one after the French thoroughbred derby. It was from 6.30 p.m. until 8 o'clock in the evening, on a Sunday, and they bet €900,000 on us. That is very impressive.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Has the IHRA looked for sports capital funding for any of its projects to date?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We have an application in for the track in Cork through the sports capital fund for €500,000.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That is the regional application.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. As regards the IHRA's other sites, it will probably look at something in the west of Ireland and something in the midlands to give it-----

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Yes. We have an application in through the IIP scheme. It was shut down overnight, within 24 hours. Our application, we believe, is correct, but the rules are not flexible.

This leaves us in a situation where we are neither in nor out.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In limbo.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

The project makes great sense. A leading GAA club is with us. The project is a good one, but the rules that the Department of Justice are adhering to are too rigid and the Department is not being flexible.

Mr. George McCullough:

We have identified a site in north Dublin for the development of a new track to replace the one at Portmarnock. As the Deputy will probably be aware, we lost Portmarnock-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. George McCullough:

-----to a commercial development in 2019. We have entered into an agreement with a landowner, subject to finance.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The IHRA is applying to the IIP scheme for that.

Mr. George McCullough:

Yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am impressed by everything the witnesses have said and will follow up on the issue with the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, to get the IHRA everything it needs to develop the sport. The witnesses have made a strong case.

Mr. George McCullough:

We would appreciate that.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It would be remiss of me to let the opportunity pass without saying that my good friend and colleague from County Longford, Deputy Flaherty, would probably have more occasion to visit Jones' Road were its current usage to change to harness racing.

As the Chairman stated, this submission is comprehensive. To me, the request is a no-brainer. There are not many questions that can be asked when they are all answered in the submission. I do have a couple, though. Let us say that the IHRA has its licence. How would that operate? Would the IHRA set up a franchise that a company would operate? Would the IHRA set up its own tote or would it do that in collaboration with the French or another crowd? Tote Ireland is the existing tote operator and it has the licence. I can see how things might have gone when the IHRA applied to the Department for a licence or asked it about one. There has not been such an application in 80 or 90 years, so it is not as if applications are coming in every day of the week. There is no application form, process or procedure, and nothing puts civil servants into a tailspin as much as when they do not have a sheet for people to tick boxes on. Could Tote Ireland apply to expand its licence to include trotting and could the IHRA work with it on a dividend basis? Has this been considered? Is it an option or am I totally off the mark?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

The Senator is not totally off the mark, but I do not know how that would work. I can answer one part of his question and Mr. LaCour can answer the other. We could use Tote Ireland's licence, but we would have to be in control of the whole tote. We could not share the tote with someone else. I do not believe that would work.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Flanagan is answering my first question. If the Minister, be it Deputy Donohoe or Deputy McGrath, told the IHRA in the morning that he was giving it a licence and it would have to set up its own tote from scratch and operate it, that would be an onerous task.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

No, it would not be.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Has the IHRA researched this? Is it doable?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Mr. LaCour is from a company called CHRIMS, which works with BetMakers. He would be best placed to explain.

Mr. Gunner LaCour:

I thank the committee for having me. I am deeply honoured to be here. As Mr. Flanagan mentioned, I work with a company called CHRIMS, which has been providing data services in the US to totes, race tracks and regulators for the past 35 years. I am also a former regulator and attorney. We have been working with the IHRA for the past five or so years on how to help it proceed if it gets a tote licence. We have examined everything from a brand-new build to using existing technology. In the sense that it is not a tote that is currently established and on the ground, it would be a fresh build. However, the best option for the IHRA would be to work with some of the existing operators, take that technology and apply it to themselves. In that way, there would be a wealth of historical knowledge in terms of tote operations, knowing the customer, noticing any money laundering and all of sorts of thing that are already established and the IHRA can use for the benefit of harness racing.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is from the money point of view. From the sport point of view, that there are 330 races is good for a sport that does not have a home base, but it is nothing in comparison with the number of thoroughbred horse races. From that perspective, do Irish trainers and-or owners go to races internationally? If this sport took off, what would be the pool of, for want of a better word, professional trainers and drivers, by whom I mean the equivalent of a jockey? How are they surviving on such limited resources at the moment? If there were many more races and a couple more tracks, would there be enough people who were prepared to get into this sport professionally? We have professional trainers and jockeys on the thoroughbred racing side. Is there that potential in this sport? If so, how are they surviving at the moment?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

I will answer one part of that question. We have 50 race days per year. There is a track in California, which Mr. LaCour is in control of, that has 45 race meetings. Does Mr. LaCour wish to explain the turnover?

Mr. Gunner LaCour:

The track Mr. Flanagan is referring to is one of the smallest harness jurisdictions in the US. We can do up to $1 million on any given race day - maybe even more - in turnover. Those 45 racing days, with approximately the same number of horses, have an economic impact on the state of California and nationally of $97 million. That is the smallest parimutuel jurisdiction in the US that is still generating that-----

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We are similar in size and there is no reason to believe that we could not have a similar turnover, particularly given that we have access to the French and US markets. We are attractive to the European and US markets.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Do any of the trainers currently racing in Ireland go to race in France or elsewhere on the Continent?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Yes. We have a trainer who is racing in Belgium at the moment and will then go to Holland. There are opportunities, although people are slow to take them. We have signed an agreement with France whereby we are allowed to breed French horses in Ireland and they are then allowed to race in France. We have approximately 130 trainers, although they do not have as many horses as thoroughbred trainers do. We have some full-time trainers, but there are others who train after work. It is similar to what happens in harness racing across Europe. There are many husband-and-wife teams with a horse in the amateur programmes in Europe. They pursue their sport in their spare time and it is a family activity at the weekend.

Mr. George McCullough:

We have a group in France purchasing and selecting French mares. How many are we bringing in this year?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

A total of 15 horses will come to Ireland in the next couple of weeks.

Mr. George McCullough:

That is for the Irish breeding programme. Many of the horses racing in Ireland are out of French mares, so there is great interest in Irish racing in France. We see France as a natural market for Irish racing and tote. We have developed a very strong and good relationship with LeTROT over the past five years.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I welcome our guests. Some of my questions have been covered, so I will not go over old ground.

I wish to ask about the west Cork track along the Clonakilty line. Am I correct that planning permission has been approved? What is the next move? When can the IHRA cut the tape?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We are waiting on the sports capital grant, which we hope will be announced in the next couple of months. Cork forms part of the application for the Dublin track.

Two tracks are hinging on the IIP application. If that was to get the go-ahead, it would release considerable potential within the sport.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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If the application in Dublin fails, does that mean the application in Cork also fails?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

It is just one avenue. We do not believe it should fail. It is a legitimate application which we believe meets all the criteria laid out by the Minister and his Department. Too stringent a view is being taken and there is no flexibility within that. If it failed, we would have to look at other avenues but there are no other avenues for sporting organisations out there. IIP has been the backbone of all sporting organisations. The IRFU and GAA clubs have used it to build sporting facilities and the FAI relies on IIP. If IIP is taken off the table, it needs to be replaced with something else. It would be very difficult if we do not get the IIP approval. We would be in the same boat as many other sporting organisations.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I will certainly give any support I can. The IHRA is pushing at an open door when it comes to a track in west Cork anyway. I would be delighted to help. Why has the granting of a licence taken so long? Does the Minister have the power to grant this licence or is new legislation required?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

As Senator Daly said, when we went to the Department of Finance, the officials did not know. There was nothing in black and white that they could follow and tick the boxes in order to get a licence. It has been slow from that point. We are very hopeful that after this meeting with the committee, things might progress.

To answer the Deputy's second question, it is in the Minister's remit to give us the licence; he does not need to create new legislation to do so. There should not be any hold-up as long as we meet all the criteria laid down by the Department.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Why does Mr. Flanagan think the Minister is dragging his feet?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

I do not think he is dragging his feet; it is just taking a long time. Is it politics? I do not know. It may be because, as Senator Daly said, the civil servants do not have it in black and white on a piece of paper to follow. I suspect that might be what it is. To give out anything, they need something to read from.

Mr. George McCullough:

I think the first licences were granted by W.T. Cosgrave in 1927.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Some 100 years later, we would like another licence. We might need to have a look at how Mr. Cosgrave did it. We can look at the history books.

What supports is the IHRA currently receiving?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We are getting supports from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine. We are not getting any direct investment. There are some grants towards prize money and for breeding. We have had access to various grants in the last 12 months. This is the first year that we have really got access to those grants.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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What kind of figure is Mr. Flanagan talking about?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Through our stud book, we got a grant of €97,000. Some €50,000 of that goes towards integrity; that is for testing in France. There was another €30,000 or €40,000 in terms of IT systems. That is €100,000 towards our stud book. We have a few applications in and I hope we will get another €100,000 towards breeding grants, grants for trainers to break young stock. The big one for us to have is the sports capital grant. The IIP scheme is the one thing that could address the problems we have and it is the same with other sporting bodies.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their statement. How much does a track cost from start to finish? What are the costs for the upkeep of it? The IHRA has made a lot of claims here and provided figures. Has it hired any consultants or researchers who can back up those statements?

What are the criteria for the tote?

If the IHRA races are shown abroad, what is the situation with the broadcasting licence? Who is involved in that?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

In 2018, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine got Indecon to do an in-depth report into the viability of this industry and whether there is room for it to grow and what it is like in the rest of the world. That was a very positive report and it is the benchmark for all things that we do and that the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine does. It identified that there was huge potential for the sport if it was supported financially.

Just for the track it would cost about €1 million to €1.5 million to cover car parking and an all-weather track. It is not a huge sum of money in terms of some bills that are out there. The maintenance of the track is an interesting one. They are different from thoroughbred racing tracks in that they are used as training centres. Throughout America and Europe, the tracks are training centres. There might be 200 or 300 horses stabled in tracks in Europe and in the United States. If we had 50 horses stabled there, they pay rent and that goes towards the upkeep of that track. People also have those places to train their horses. As I mentioned earlier, those are the facilities we lack in Ireland. It is not just a racetrack; it is a training track. It is a training track seven days a week. A trainer might have another job and just comes back at 5 o'clock to train their horses. It is not necessary to be a full-time trainer but they need a place to train. It is not possible to have horses training on the road or the beach. We need facilities.

Mr. George McCullough:

The figure of €1.5 million referred to by Mr. Flanagan would cover the basic layout, to put the running surface down and put in a small stand, changing rooms and whatever infrastructure is needed. There is the land purchase on top of that. As members can imagine, the cost of land purchase in Dublin is considerable.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the witnesses to address the question on research and consultants.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

The Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine hired consultants in 2018. Indecon did an in-depth report in 2018. That looked at the potential for the sport, the cost of tracks and different things like that. That is on the Department's website. We benchmark everything that happens. We are part of the European Trotting Union, UET. There are countries with similar populations to Ireland and they have five or six racetracks. Slovenia has three or four beautiful tracks. It is the biggest horse racing sport on mainland Europe; it is bigger than thoroughbred racing there. The GAA is in every village and town in Ireland. That is what trotting is in Europe. It is similar to what the GAA is in Ireland.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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What about broadcasting?

Mr. Gunner LaCour:

For broadcasting we would have to set up cameras as would be the case at any sporting event and a system to transmit those video images into a format that could either be streamed over the Internet or sent via satellite. They would be received at some other location in another country. We would also need to provide past performance information and things like that. There are a variety of entities that both do the video and provide past performance information operating throughout Europe. It is a fairly common system.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few questions. Are there bookmakers at the tracks? If so, what kind of turnover do they have? Do they pay any levy on the turnover if they are operating as bookmakers?

Integrity was also briefly mentioned. How much testing of horses is done? How many races did we have?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

There were 330 races.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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How many of those winners are tested and what laboratory is used? Is it the same lab used by HRI? The next question is about prize money. It was said France was contributing to prize money, but how much money is paid out for those 330 races? The opening statement mentioned the horse and greyhound fund, which is divided 80:20 between horse racing and greyhound racing. Is the IHRA lobbying to get a percentage of that fund or what is their view of that Exchequer funding for the other two sports?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We have licensed bookmakers on site. They are the same bookmakers that would be at the dogs or the thoroughbred racing. They pay a similar amount. It is between approximately €100 and €150 to stand at each meeting depending on the size of the meeting. Turnover depends on the type of race. Big races have fairly good turnover. There are five or six bookmakers there. They are permanent bookmakers. They are trotting bookmakers but they also do thoroughbred. Turnover can vary but I believe it is healthy enough.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Have they a figure?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We report between €1.1 million and €1.2 million per year of what is bet on harness racing on track to the Union Européenne du Trot, UET, if I recall correctly.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Do they just pay a fee for standing? Do they pay a levy on their turnover?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

No, they do not pay a levy on their turnover. On the laboratory and testing, the laboratory we use is the French laboratory, which is known as one of the best in the world. There are five laboratories approved for use by the UET. One is in Newmarket and one is the French laboratory. Obviously, with the connection with France we get a good rate from the French. A vet is present at all race meetings. An average of two or three races at every meeting are tested. That is the plan for 2024. We also do pre tests. We were the first. Pre testing is a test for bicarbonate of soda. We test for that. It is a pre test. We started doing that in 2017. Thoroughbreds only started doing it in 2020. Lynn Hillyer, who works with Horse Racing Ireland, came to us to see how we were doing pre-race testing. It is funny that we were leading the way in that testing. We have obligations under our membership of the UET to do a certain number of tests. We report on the testing. I have learned that if you do 300 tests and have zero positives, then you are not testing right. You need to find something.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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What is the level of positives?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We have a very small percentage. I think last year we had six positives, but they were things you would find like bute, pain killing stuff or stuff for joint injections. There is household stuff you would expect to find in horses that are in training, but there was nothing you would not expect to find in a horse's body.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Performance enhancing.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Yes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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What about the prize money?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

On average the prize money we give out is between €900,000 and €1 million per year.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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What is Mr. Flanagan's view on the horse and greyhound fund?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

I am in possession of a letter from Deputy Creed, who was Minister for agriculture in 2019 and 2020. It is a positive letter but they were considering making us a beneficiary of the horse and greyhound fund. I do not know how long that consideration takes but they were considering making us a beneficiary of the horse and greyhound fund. We would love to be part of that fund and we think we are entitled to be part of the fund. Were the fund to be set up today, I think we would be part of it because it would not be right to exclude us. To be fair to the then Minister, they did not know about harness racing. We all know about harness racing since I have been coming in here since 2013 or 2014. We can all agree that we are entitled to funding. Should it be the case that fund were set up tomorrow, I think we would be part of that fund.

Mr. George McCullough:

There were a few things the Cathaoirleach asked. One was about integrity. Mr. Flanagan answered on dope testing for horses. Our application here is on tote. Integrity in the tote is as important, if not more important, than the integrity of the animals that are racing.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think I would take anything above the welfare of the horse.

Mr. George McCullough:

You are quite right.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The welfare of the horse is paramount.

Mr. George McCullough:

There has to be confidence in the system of running a tote system.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that but the welfare of the horse is paramount.

Mr. George McCullough:

Mr. LaCour could probably give more information on that than I can.

Mr. Gunner LaCour:

The tote system is parimutuel, which means you are facilitating wagers among individuals who want to wager on this product. You are taking individuals in other countries and merging it into what we call a single pool. By necessity, this system has integrity in the wagering product. There is a record. When you take all of these wagers and merge them together, you have to have records all along the way of who is wagering and on what. This is particularly true when talking about online wagering. If people are using their mobile phones as they often do today, or even with in-person wagering at the track, you will have a level of "know your customer", which is identifying who that person is and whether he or she is a person appropriate to be wagering on this product, whether there is money laundering, where the funds are coming from, whether those funds should be used for this purpose or is that person trying to do something else with them.

The social responsibility piece is fairly new in the industry but is about identifying people who may have a problem and whether measures should be taken to back them off, stop letting them wager and so on. There are processes and procedures that every tote has in place. There are reporting and banking requirements because these transactions are financial that cover the gaming piece. Every country has banking and the individual payment regulations that will potentially cover this. This is also a market-driven piece. If you are working with France to send your signal into France and you want people there to wager through the PMU and send their wagers back, the PMU has to be sure you are doing everything. Your racing must be done with integrity, be that the welfare of the horse or the wagering systems themselves and procedures to identify individuals and so forth. You not only have the rules and regulations that drive integrity in the sport, but the tote system and the market for tote is an extra level of force that drives integrity inside and outside the tote system.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for appearing and for their presentation. I will be honest that this is new to me. It is not an area I am overly familiar with, but they have made their argument well and have given us a detailed opening statement. The committee is at least now clear as to where they are at, but the witnesses are in a process of which we do not know the final outcome. Most questions have been asked. I apologise as I had to make a call so I may have missed this point. On the application itself, has the IHRA engaged anywhere else further than this committee with regard to that application? What are the next steps in that process as they see it?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We engaged with the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, in 2021. We have re-engaged with the current Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, and his secretary has pledged he will look into where the application is, to re-ignite that and see what next steps need to happen.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I presume that meeting with the Minister, Deputy McGrath, was fairly recent.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

I met his secretary, who is going to see where the application is within the Department and to speak to the Minister, Deputy McGrath, about how to push this forward.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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When was that meeting?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Three weeks ago.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Flanagan.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I wanted to come back on something that Mr. Flanagan did not touch on. What he said about bringing in breeding mares was interesting. What is the IHRA's stock of breeding mares at the minute? Does the association own them or lease them out, or what does it do with breeding mares?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Our stock of breeding mares would be about 300 mares. They are privately owned. In France, for the French mares, Le Trot facilitates tours. When you go to France, it pays for the tour to go around and look at the mares and the racehorses, and it subsidises the price of the mares. Independent people and independent stud farms own them.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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On the tracks that are being developed, the IHRA has about 50 stables at those. Surely there is an opportunity for link-ups with local authorities and city councils? That seems obvious, does it not? Then there are the local ETBs. It seems a no-brainer to do it.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

It does. A small investment in these facilities would go a long way towards clearing up the antisocial behaviour that is going on. It would at least it will make the Garda's life a bit easier. As legislators, the members have done their jobs. For the Garda then, there is a place for these people to go. At the moment, it is said that there is no place for them to go, which leaves the Garda and everybody else in a situation where they are wondering what to do here. If we provide the proper facilities and opportunities for these people, there is no reason they should be engaging any of this antisocial behaviour. They cannot say, "Give us a role, or give us this or that". We have provided them with adequate facilities under the licence of the Irish Harness Racing Association.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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What would the IHRA typically charge per week for board for a stable?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

It is an average of €50 per week, so it is not insurmountable.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I know the IHRA has an awful lot to do but is it not a no-brainer for a city council or a local authority, where there is a track like that, to link in and do something educational?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

It does but it is just not that simple. It is about trying to bring the right people together. I think the Department of Justice should be leading this. There is a big problem there. It is only when this hits the airwaves that we all ask what we are going to do about it. That puts the issue on the agenda but after a couple of days, it is gone. We all see the images on Facebook and social media. Nobody wants to see them. I go to Australia to the World Trotting Conference - it was in Berlin, Germany, last year - and people actually ask how the trotting is on the road. They see those images of Ireland. That is not a good image for Ireland or an Irish person to have, whether you are involved in the sport or not. That should not be the case.

I have been making the case for the last ten years that it is because of the lack of investment in facilities. If you do not invest in facilities, it is like a carpenter going to work and you give him the tools but he has not got the wood. He is not going to be able to do his job. All the components need to be in place. There is no point in having a race track if we do not have a tote licence and there is no point in having a tote licence if we do not have a race track. These are the components that make up racing all over the world.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I suppose it is an animal welfare issue as well. I know we have the issue with the road racing but we have a big issue with animal welfare-----

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

Yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----in the ownership of horses, particularly in towns, where there are not adequate facilities. Does the IHRA deal with that issue as well?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

We are licensed to issue passports. We are a passport-issuing authority, and our passports are recognised all over the world. We export horses to France, the UK and America. We have exported a lot of horses to America, and it is a market that is starting to open. American people are looking at Ireland now in the context of breeding. Now we have access to the top stallions in America and hopefully we will have access to the top stallions in Europe. There remain a few laws to be passed. We are no different from thoroughbreds. Ireland is a great nation for horses. We are a horse-loving nation. We have great expertise with horses, and trotting is no different. There is no difference. The thoroughbred industry only started with its breeding operations in the late 1990s, and look at it now. It is a world leader. There is no reason that we could not cut out a niche for ourselves on the world market within 20 years.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I know that in terms of the IHRA's structure and that, it is relatively recent, and it is probably relying largely on French and American breeding. I understand there has not yet been an Irish trotting stallion and there is no defined Irish breeding line. Is that the case?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

There is an Irish breeding line. Obviously, people have their own mares and they go back a long time. There is an Irish breeding line. There are two types of trotting horses. There is the trotter, which is European, and the pacer, which is American. You will find trotters in America as well. It is 80% pacers in America and 20% trotters. In Europe, it is 100% trotters. There are no pacers. One of the reasons the sport did not grow is that we are too aligned to America, and we did not have a product that we were able to sell to our European counterparts. Having realised that, we have changed that and started breeding trotters. Equally, we breed pacers as well.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the horses trotting on the road, can they compete with the IHRA's trotters? Are they a comparable animal?

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

They are comparable animals when they are purebred but defined classes are needed for these horses. They are not going to be Derby or Oaks horses. There is going to be a niche market for them and classes have to be provided. We cannot say we are going to build a track and take these people off the road; we have to provide classes for them, whether that be amateur class or whatever, and then prize money.

France is self-sufficient. All the money that France generates towards prize money is from betting. The French Government does not provide any money. It is the same all over Europe. In France, money is given to the sport horse. A percentage of the money that the thoroughbred and trotting organisations, which are in partnership with the PMU, receive goes to the sport horse.

Obviously, more money would go to elite horses. That is the case in all sports. However, allowances have to be made for a lower class of horses. We are not going into it with our eyes closed; we understand that. There is always going to be a lower class of horse and there has to have classes for them.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Based on everything I have read and heard this evening, I propose that the committee write to the Minister for an update on the current status of the application for a licence, and that we lend our support to same.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I think there would be general agreement on that based on what we have heard around the table. We give the witnesses a commitment that we will write to the Minister outlining that we had the IHRA before the committee for a full questions and answers session and we see no reason a tote licence should not be granted to the association. The sooner that is done the better because, obviously, the absence of a licence is seriously hindering the development of the sport. The horse and greyhound fund might an argument for another day.

Mr. Mark Flanagan:

It might be an argument.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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If the IHRA got access to the tote licence, it would be very interesting to see how the sport progressed.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and giving us a thorough briefing of where harness racing is at. The main issue is the tote licence. As Senator Daly said, we will write to the Minister for Finance, Deputy McGrath, indicating our unanimous support for the granting of the licence to the IHRA, and the outlining the reasons. The secretariat will draw up that correspondence and we will send the IHRA a copy.

We will now suspend the meeting to allow the witnesses to exit and the witnesses for the next session to take their seats.