Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 15 November 2023
Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport And Media
Development of Local and Community Arts: Discussion (Resumed)
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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The committee is meeting today with key stakeholder groups to continue its examination of the topic of the development of local and community arts. I warmly welcome from the Drama League of Ireland, Mr. Edward Hayden, chairperson; from the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland, Mr. Liam Hannaway, chairman; from the Association of Irish Festivals and Events, Mr. Colm Croffy, executive director; from the Association of Irish Musical Societies, Mr. Feargal Cavanagh, national president, and Mr. Frank Foley, national secretary; and from the Theatre Forum, Ms Anna Walsh, director, and Padraic McIntyre, venues manager.
The format of the meeting is I will invite our witnesses to deliver an opening statement limited to three minutes, to be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish opening statements on its webpage. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before we proceed I wish to explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to attend from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.
All the housekeeping is done and I am nearly out of breath. I propose we proceed with the opening statements. I call Mr. Hayden.
Mr. Edward Hayden:
I wish everyone a good afternoon and thank the committee for the opportunity. For more than 60 years, the Drama League of Ireland, DLI, has supported, nurtured and enhanced the aspirations and activities of amateur theatre artists through education, training, advocacy and advisory services. Through our library, summer school, ongoing workshops, play licensing services, competitive insurance scheme and information service we support a membership of in excess of 20,000 people nationwide, based within more than 600 groups, to realise their creative ambitions and produce the highest-quality local and community drama.
It is fair to say education in its many forms is key and our members engage with us to tell us what they need and how we can best support these aspirations, thus enabling us to work together. To this end, we strive to ensure the education we provide is suitably pitched, robust and will enhance the dramatic ambitions of the participants. We present invaluable education opportunities during our annual flagship week-long summer school at the University of Limerick, UL, where we bring the best of Irish and international theatre practitioners to work with our attending members. We also offer a wealth of regional workshops, masterclasses and online learning opportunities. If we look at academia, the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, STEM, approach has been replaced by STEAM, or science, technology, engineering, arts and mathematics, in recognition that the arts play a role in the overall creation of the human being.
Amateur drama in local and community arts offers a wide range of benefits to both individuals and the communities they serve. These include creative expression, community building, cultural enrichment, skills development, personal fulfilment, emotional intelligence and can often provide a safe space for exploring social issues in an artistic setting, raising awareness of important topics. It completely erodes generational differences and fosters an attitude of inclusivity in a community as amateur drama welcomes peoples of all ages, backgrounds, and abilities. The work of our members provides a core strand of programming to theatres, community halls and arts centres across the country and a continuous stream of payments to playwrights, local businesses, hospitality providers, etc. In essence, it plays a vital role in enhancing the life and cultural fabric of towns and cities up and down the country through community cohesion and fostering creativity and expression.
Ireland is rich in culture and heritage and as the year of centenary comes to an end, we must think of the importance of retaining this cultural tradition. Many local drama groups produce historical or traditional plays that help preserve and celebrate the history and traditions of their area, which is an important aspect of cultural preservation. We are after all the land of saints and scholars and between all-island playwriting competitions and providing a vehicle for the exposition of the arts around the country, there is a body of evidence to suggest that the DLI is contributing to that conveyor belt of scholars and artists. Liam Neeson, Fionnuala Flanagan and Gabriel Byrne are but three of so very many who come to mind when thinking of those who have migrated from the amateur to the professional scene.
We are an ambitious and charged board of volunteers with great aspirations and these need support. Recent comprehensive applications for Arts Council funding to support capacity building, audience development and inclusion projects were unsuccessful, so we hope that this committee will acknowledge the contribution made by our members and in turn support the activities we conduct on their behalf.
I conclude by urging members to consider their last visit to their local theatre, community hall or arts centre to see a local or visiting group. Here, we have explored the depths of human emotion and the endless possibilities that live within the realm of the stage. People have laughed, cried and grown together. Here, the commitment to excellence has presented us with multiple dramatic achievements on the amateur scene in these venues around the country, thereby feeding and sustaining the audience. Long may that continue to thrive. However, for it to thrive it needs support, investment, access to resources, financial stability and political support. During Covid, we at DLI received funding from the Department this committee scrutinises for an extensive outreach programme, especially to rural areas, which are the very ones that often go unreached by professional theatre. This funding, administered by the Arts Council, required us to spend it on supporting professionals during the pandemic, who obviously were very impacted by its ramifications. Due to this, we were in a position to offer a suite of workshops around the country, allowing our members to hone their craft regionally and in the "teach a man to fish" approach, return to their own groups to share the learning. We want to continue this model, and perhaps our presentation here today will highlight the relevance of the initiative and the myriad benefits it offers. I thank members for their time and look forward to fielding any questions they may have.
Mr. Liam Hannaway:
I thank members for having us here to do this presentation. I am chairman of the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland, ADCI, which has been in existence for 71 years. Its aim is to foster, promote and encourage amateur drama across the island of Ireland. This is done by local amateur drama groups coming to festivals in an area to develop their skills and also avail of adjudications from professional adjudicators. We are a voluntary organisation run by national executive committee. Under that are four provincial meetings that feed into the national executive and we are organised on a 32-county basis.
During our 71 years of existence we have seen and encouraged groups to travel North and South to festivals in the toughest years of the Troubles. Members will appreciate I am not from the Twenty-six Counties. I come from south Armagh. Groups from counties Wexford, Kerry and Cork have come to play at the Lislea Drama Festival. That has happened since 1980. We have 50 other affiliated festivals across the length of Ireland and we welcome more than 100 groups onto the circuit annually. Putting on stage activities is not just about amateur drama. There is a wider cultural community aspect to it and this needs to be recognised. Where I come from is a rural area, but that facilitates farmers and old-age pensioners living on their own who come to join in drama at a local level during the winter months and that is of major assistance to mental health. People should not just think of it from a purely cultural point of view as there is a wider range. Through a survey we identified 120,000 people attend our festivals annually. That also involves 740 volunteers across the island, so it is a big community and cultural event. We had this conversation earlier on, but local amateur drama embraces all generations. Drama groups have people aged 16 or 17 playing with actors aged 80 or more. That intercultural and intergenerational work is very important and amateur drama has been renowned for fostering that.
The festival is also a key contributor to the local economy. All groups that travel to the area use the local facilities, including bars, restaurants and catering facilities. Every festival involves overnight stays. If we talk about 50 festivals, that is 50 local and rural areas providing overnight stays.
To make this argument, on 27 June 2019, as part of a wider group of people who are involved in the amateur drama circuit, including members of the ADCI and my friends with me at the table here, I had a meeting with the then Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to look for assistance and to promote amateur drama, given what it provides to the cultural and community aspect of Ireland. Our case was accepted by the Minister and €250,000 was announced for amateur drama. However, when the current Minister took up her position in 2020, it was decided to provide that money to the Arts Council to administer. The funding was allocated between the various amateur drama organisations at this table. This funding was reduced in 2023.
Amateur drama is not only clustered within amateur drama because, as the committee will be aware, a number of people who have been involved in amateur drama go on to the professional circuit. Young people who are doing drama at school who are looking for a professional career have been assisted in that respect. We are, however, concerned that this funding in 2023 to 2024 has now ceased. We ask that it is restored.
In conclusion, we have a long history, we provide to a wide fabric of society across the island of Ireland and we believe there should be some funding provided for the work we do across the sector.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Hannaway. I call Mr. Colm Croffy to speak from the Association of Irish Festivals and Events.
Mr. Colm Croffy:
The Association of Irish Festivals and Events is a much younger organisation than the other constituent organisations here today, as represented by my colleagues. It has been in existence for 31 years and represents approximately 700 not-for-profit community festival event organisations on an all-island basis. This is my first time to attend the Oireachtas since Covid-19. As somebody who is noteworthily critical very often of the Government and statutory agencies, I want to take a moment to note that during the pandemic, the State supported arts organisations. This committee, in particular, was very strong in its practical supports for all manner of arts, but especially the performers. Some of the legacy work of various task forces initiated by the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the Government during that time will greatly add to the achievement of the local arts scene, particularly the basic income for the arts pilot support scheme for artists. To be fair, it is important to note that.
In my briefing material to the committee, I have attached an appendix to my opening statement and a narrative of history. Very often, when we discuss local arts, cultural arts and community arts, there is an assumption that these things did not exist until Todd Andrews established the tourism authority in 1952 and the Arts Council emerged on the scene in the 1960s. However, we have had a much longer engagement with community and local arts than that. I would hate for a discussion led by policymakers here to confine us within those Victorian box sets.
What is often overlooked in any conversation on this matter is that while Government agencies vie at times for their omnipotence or their priority within the local arts sector, from our perspective it is the municipal or local authorities who cumulatively contribute the largest amount of public subsidy to local, cultural and community arts events, driven and focused by local needs but with no overarching policy construct from either the Cabinet, the Government or the Parliament.
I could sit here and talk about cash flow and costs but, realistically, there are other things we need to focus on which might make our lives better as we focus on a future for local and community arts. I will mention some of them briefly.
The diminishing of competent public realm and its practical management since Phil Hogan's reform of local administration is having a significant negative impact on how communities and local groups can use the public realm to celebrate, to convene and to engage. The positive indifference of some local authorities to the need of communities to be helped around the administrative rapids in accessing plazas, squares, parks and streetscapes for their local activities is a negative. The reality of post-Covid volunteer exhaustion in all of our communities, across all aspects of sports and culture, but especially in creating safe and sustainable community events, is a problem. This is something I take no particular enjoyment in saying because I have been involved in this space for 30 years, but other colleagues have mentioned it. The acute and growing dichotomy between the rise of the professional arts administrator and the keen committed voluntary activist, with no appreciation of the ecology of arts practice, audience development and local accent to the narrative presentation, is deeply worrying. We are all familiar with the huge burden of responsibility from statutory processes and regulations, health and safety, duty of care and all of that for those who are trying to produce events pro bono.
Very significant pressures and costs are now associated with local events spaces such as community halls, school assembly halls, theatres, hotels and public buildings, due to a variety of recent and regulatory issues. There are new pressures on community arts and events organisers to bring in new equality, diversity and inclusion policies. Given that other organisations in the realm are not up to speed with some of these issues, this is problematic.
The loss of family firms on our high streets, in pharmacy, grocery, food and hospitality, and even services to national chains, is savagely diminishing the ability of anyone here to attract sponsorship at local level to create a drama festival or a cultural activity. There is a lack of appreciation of all those actors in the sector who view the making of these local events as social enterprises that need to have sustainability at their core.
The huge deadweight of the general data protection regulation, GDPR, when well-intentioned local officials are seeking to adequately share relevant vital information on performers, crafters, musicians and artists within an area, is preventing people from accessing this information and from sharing and networking more. There may also be a lack of urgency in supporting groups within communities and working collaboratively on a strategy to share resources, know-how, equipment and audiences. There is a common misunderstanding that community and local arts events are competing with each other or with the village down the road; in fact, Netflix and the off-licence are our true competitors as we seek to get people out from beyond the hall door to attend our events.
I want to make one comment very pointedly today, which is that the Cinderella of local authority services when it comes to local and community arts is the library service. It is one of those services which over the past decade has been pretty much savaged in the various cuts which have been made. What these libraries do in a safe space for organisations, such as the ones I represent, is phenomenal and is done with very small resources.
The change in the regional media landscape, including provincial newspapers, and the attendant pressures on programming content for all local media, especially local radio, has had a significant impact on how we get our word out there. Obviously, the committee is more well aware than I am that the difficulties in Montrose are not good for what we are doing.
In common with other First World societies, we needs to step away from the post-war outdated view of scaffolding local arts activity for narrow artistic goals. My organisation believes that local arts and community events will increasingly in the future be about platforms for an art form to grow a new audience outreach; the development of labs for innovative ways of presenting, producing, staging and participating; vital tools for exchange of learning and practice, whether it is in song, dance, circus, drama, literature, language or teanga - is cuma liom; cross-generational activities which build positive memories; promoting our communities and our community cohesion, which is going to be very important to this State in the next ten to 15 years, in a safe and welcoming congregated setting; wellness and health, which have been mentioned before; showing ways within local arts to empower and to build new neighbourhoods, with which our society is having to struggle; becoming significant tools for place-making; and becoming barometers of the vibrancy of a place in assisting with inward investment. Given that within the next four years, one in four adults on this island will be over the age of 65, there is nothing better than local community arts activity to maintain them in a vibrant lifestyle. Go raibh míle maith agaibh. I will be happy to take questions.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Croffy very much. Next up we have Mr. Feargal Cavanagh from the Association of Irish Musical Societies.
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
The Association of Irish Musical Societies, known as AIMS, was started in 1965 as the governing body for musical societies. It now has more than 120 musical society members based throughout the entire island of Ireland. Within these societies, over 14,000 members are involved in performing or bringing to the stage close to 200 different productions, giving in excess of 800 live show performances every year, from full-scale musical theatre productions to Christmas pantomimes and concerts. This is giving us a total audience of in excess of 500,000 people annually. While we are seen as an amateur arts organisation, our many member societies stage their shows to a very professional standard, and with an average cost of somewhere between €40,000 to €50,000, give us an overall spend in the region of €8 million a year.
Between all our member societies, we employ directors, musical directors, choreographers and many musicians for all our orchestras. In addition, we employ many technicians, lighting operators, sound technicians, set builders and painters, costume suppliers, props and hair and make-up crews. Also, many volunteers are involved in stage crews, front-of-house teams and catering staff. There could be approximately 100 people working on each production, with a substantial number of them doing so on a voluntary community basis.
Our AIMS societies perform in many theatres, town halls, community halls and schools nationwide. Our societies are a vibrant and vital part of our communities, and for many young people throughout the country this is the first introduction to musical theatre and West End shows. During the Covid-19 years, we have certainly appreciated how vital live theatre entertainment is to the country we live in. Local and community arts, such as musical theatre, give the opportunity to audiences to socialise, meet friends and family, get out of the house, have somewhere to go, switch off and be fully entertained. At the same time, it is a chance for all members to do the same thing, but also to learn develop their talents and be educated in singing, dancing, acting and well-being, all while making friends.
Most societies rehearse a production for an average of three months, which in many cases will carry them through the winter months. Being part of and working as a group, in developing a person’s acting, singing and choreography, is especially good for the body and the mind and is very positive regarding everyone's mental health. Our AIMS member societies perform mainly from September to mid-May. These activities galvanise a community, not just local communities but also neighbouring communities that support each other in these activities and create a complex web of social and cultural interaction and networking that is unique to Irish society.
Our individual society members range in age from infants to people in their eighties. We positively embrace and encourage all age groups, irrelevant of class, gender, orientation, religion or creed. We encourage all to join their local musical society and enhance their individual talent, whether that is onstage or whatever role within the musical society suits them best.
We have been invited here today to discuss local and community arts and what can be done to enhance and further develop them throughout the entire country. AIMS societies cover the entire country, from Buncrana in Donegal to Killarney in Kerry, and everywhere in between. Throughout the regional communities, we have built up a network of individuals with the both artistic talent and organisational skills to continue to develop the community musical theatre arts sector. However, a major issue for musical theatre continually is creating the funds to keep every society on the road. While every society will have its paying audiences, and while all our cast are amateur, this is never enough to cover all the costs which, as has been mentioned earlier, for many societies will be in the region of €40,000 to €50,000. Therefore, every society relies on fundraising. We realise that the Arts Council states that it is not in their remit to support local community arts. They state that this is the remit of the local individual councils to support and assist local community arts in their area, principally through their arts office. However, in practice, this varies considerably from council to council without any one scheme being available to all, as does the amount of support that may be available in any one year. No musical society can feel certain that funding will be forthcoming from year to year. This is a major issue for societies when they try to plan and budget their upcoming shows when, at the same time, they cannot be sure of what may be available in support schemes via the council. It is quite usual for one to apply for grant assistance for a scheme whose guidelines say it is for to €5,000, but you will actually get €1,000. We understand that it depends on how many apply and how much is available, but it still leaves musical societies with serious uncertainties to cope with.
All our local community musical societies-----
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
I have a short tract left to read and then I will be finished. All our local community musical societies strive to bring to the stage musical theatre productions of the very best quality, and so it would greatly help if dedicated funding could be ring-fenced to provide reliable, consistent funding to provide a less precarious path for societies. We are aware that just this year a new scheme has come through the local council. It is called the community recognition fund and it is funded by the Department of Rural and Community Development. We are not sure how many councils have implemented this funding programme, nor do we know if it is going to be available next year. We also do not know if an equivalent funding programme is available for urban-based musical theatre societies.
Today, I have the great honour of addressing the committee as the national president of AIMS. My job and the job of all involved in AIMS is to continue the development and enhancement of local and community musical theatre throughout the country. I hope that this committee can bring forward a programme for local and community arts which will support our member societies in their work to bring the highest standard of musical theatre within their local community society and throughout the country.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Anna Walsh and Pádraic McIntyre will present jointly on behalf of the Theatre Forum.
Ms Anna Walsh:
I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach and members of the committee for the opportunity to address them today. Theatre Forum is the national resource organisation for the performing arts with member arts centres, production companies, freelance artists and arts workers all over the country. Arts centres and venues are where the work of our members overlaps with and supports the work of local and community arts organisations, many of whom are represented here today.
By 2040, future generations in this country will require enhanced cultural and social amenities, regional connectivity and improved environmental sustainability. Achieving the national development plan’s aim of having vibrant communities right across the country will depend in no small way on maintaining the built arts infrastructure that supports the good work of the amateur community and voluntary arts organisations that are talking with us today.
Historical capital investment in a nationwide network of arts centres has been key to developing the arts in Irish localities. Every local authority arts office, co-operating with their Department, the County and City Management Association, CCMA, and council agendas, prepares its arts plan and works to support artists and co-create, co-produce and co-present art and arts events in its locality. This programme investment responds to the rights of people in every community to enjoy and participate in the arts, which reaps artistic, civic and social benefits. However, the result is a mixed-funding ecology, with each authority having its own governance, financial and management relationship with the arts centres in its area. Theatre Forum asks the committee whether the capital programme funding structures, which require frequent and often multiple applications in any one year, could be made more efficient and co-ordinated.
Mr. Liam Hannaway:
While Ireland’s built arts infrastructure is an asset, some parts of it are deteriorating. To achieve the aims outlined in the national development plan, we ask to put in place a co-ordinated capital investment plan to maintain and operate arts centres to the highest sustainability and access standards, reconfigure them as excellent live performance and production hubs and ensure that they meet the current and future needs of the communities. Arts organisations are also ideally placed to lead by influence and example, making the transition to an energy-efficient, low-carbon economy.
Theatre Forum asks this committee to seize the opportunity to align the national development plan and the Department’s forthcoming culture, creative and climate policy framework to draw together capital and programme investment plans that support all arts centres and venues working to enrich life in communities. Take the opportunity to rebuild the arts infrastructure in a sustainable way that is accessible to and inclusive of all communities.
Arts centres, venues, theatres and galleries are at the heart of their communities. They are spaces close to home where community projects expect the professional production and presentation of the work, from drama to musicals, dance to pantomime, and visual arts to circus. They are the touchstone for connecting communities. My experience of the Ramor Theatre in Virginia and Townhall Cavan showcases the vibrancy of local and community arts, going beyond the limitations of once-off projects in annual funding cycles.
The role of the local authority in funding control and management of arts venues and theatres is particular to each organisation, with 31 local authorities, arts officers and officers and at least one venue or arts centre in every area.
Each operates on the basis of a bespoke model of Arts Council, local authority, box office and other earned income. Regardless of these individualised arrangements, we ask the committee to think about arts centres as our cultural assets, the key arts channels to communities and vital focal points in cities, counties and towns. Finding and promoting an interpretation of the Arts Act 2003 that makes multi-annual funding or service-level agreements between all arts centres and their local authorities the norm, rather than an exception, would underpin our work.
Ms Anna Walsh:
We urge the committee to consider the initial results of the pilot scheme for basic income for the arts. That musicians and artists get one third less pay compared to all other workers, as identified in First Music Contact and Theatre Forum's most recent pay and conditions survey, suggests the roll-out of basic income for the arts is a necessity if artists and musicians are to emerge from their first local encounters with the arts and go on to have sustainable careers in and working with our communities.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for their opening statements. They have underlined something that we know at this committee, but it is no harm to remind us of the unbelievable work of amateur drama groups and musical societies, whose productions are extraordinary, and also highlight the challenges they face in accessing funding and infrastructure.
We will now proceed to questions and answers. Each member has a six-minute slot.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I thank all our guests. They are very welcome. It has been alluded to many times by us that arts and cultural engagement begin at home, at school or in the library, and consequently they are built on community activity. Therefore, it is really welcome that this committee is hearing about the issues facing the amateur sector in addition to the professional sector.
I wish to ask Mr. Croffy about the barriers facing those in the sector. In Lisbon you see people selling second-hand books from a table in the park and you tell yourself they would last five minutes if they set up a table in a park in Dublin to sell their wares. What are the barriers facing those who wish to run events in Ireland? Reference was made to plazas and public spaces.
Mr. Colm Croffy:
Practically, the regulatory environment in which everybody operates in the public realm is such that it is prohibitive to take a book stall, puppet show or interpretation of Yeats onto a public thoroughfare because you must first have insurance. Depending on what the local authority will determine through its insurer, there could be indemnity at a level of €6.3 million, €9.8 million or €16.4 million, depending on the nature of the activity, the number of participants, whether the event is a circus, street lantern parade or feis ceoil, and the level of risk involved. The last time I checked, some eight local authorities had introduced by-laws or regulations specific to major pedestrianised thoroughfares in regard to busking and performing. Wisely, some did so with the engagement of their arts and creative sectors in their cities and provincial towns, but others just introduced them in a more regulatory manner, resulting in a three-week statutory process of review. Those are significant barriers because it is quite prohibitive for a local group or performer to have insurance at one of the levels of indemnity mentioned.
Second, there are the issues of policing an event and gaining access to areas after dusk or dark, when there might be lighting, public address or sound requirements. Very often in most of our provincial towns, there is no cover for people beyond dusk unless it is prearranged through a festival or event.
On the facts I alluded to concerning the Hogan reform of government, most of the 107 towns that had district councils had a town clerk, town engineer and a variety of locals who could get you a key quite quickly to have a celebratory event at the main plaza, square or other area for a homecoming team or somebody who did well at the feis ceoil – in fairness, with the support of the Garda Síochána and other operators in the space, including the Civil Defence. That is gone now and very few places have the spontaneity of supply that allows people to use public boulevards, streets and town squares.
Casual trading laws have not helped because they are another quandary to tiptoe through and around. Therefore, a variety of State regulations do not sit very well with us animating our streets and public places in the way our continental cousins do. Key to this are the duty of care and the high cost of being insured in a public place against all manner of risks.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I ask Theatre Forum to respond also. It could be wise for the committee to ask the Minister for an update or progress report on basic income for artists in line with the Theatre Forum's suggestion. I served on the board of the Civic Theatre for many years and was very aware that the county council was the primary funder. The Arts Council funding, which amounted to much less than that of the council, always involved more bureaucracy. Maybe the Theatre Forum witnesses will paint a picture of the capital schemes, if any, that exist right now. I am aware there were some from 2016 to 2018 under Creative Ireland. From 2019 to 2022, there was the cultural capital scheme, but I am not sure what is in place now. What is a realistic figure for a national fund?
Ms Anna Walsh:
At this stage, it is impossible to come up with a realistic figure. The infrastructural needs of most arts centres and buildings, most of which are multipurpose, are such that there is a need to upgrade for environmental sustainability and energy-efficiency reasons. However, a by-product is that the buildings become more accessible when those works are done. It is therefore a matter of investing in the presentation and production quality of work in parallel with addressing the environmental sustainability and accessibility of the buildings. However, there is a significant investment required. Different types of buildings have different needs and associated costs, so a review of all the building stock is probably needed, with a capital investment programme worked out over a number of years. It is significant but it is allowed for and considered, and it is part of the national development plan. It just needs to be translated into the bigger capital schemes, for which arts centres can be encouraged to apply in a co-ordinated way, all looking at the same criteria concerning sustainability, energy efficiency and accessibility for communities.
Mr. Padraic McIntyre:
We have been lucky in Cavan. The town hall there was refurbished relatively recently. It was supposed to open before Covid but naturally that was held off. The Ramor Theatre got a connection through a library, which went in beside it. We got a new box office, new dressing rooms, and a wine bar and gallery space, which connected into the existing theatre, whose capacity remained the same. Therefore, we have been lucky. We have already seen the benefit of what Ms Walsh has talked about. The facility is very accessible to people from all areas of the community and is environmentally sustainable.
Townhall Cavan is an old building, as is the Ramor Theatre. It is as sustainable as possible. We are now seeing the benefits of that.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Under which scheme was that funded?
Mr. Padraic McIntyre:
The library came under the fund brought in by the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Humphrey, namely, the rural regeneration and development fund. That has been brilliant. The library officially opened only a couple of weeks ago, but we got the theatre back open in June and the library is now working alongside it. That has increased the footfall through the door. We now have street presence on the main street in Virginia for our box office. People who visit the library see what is on in the theatre. People come to the theatre at night and realise the library is open. After a couple of months, the synergy of the two of them working together has already reaped rewards and we are only starting. We are beginning to see what we can do with the library and literature or music events working together. We have a rehearsal or multipurpose room underneath the library which we can share. All these things can happen. It is about the vision. My employers, the senior management of Cavan County Council, had the vision to see this could work. Reference was made to the usefulness of the libraries. It is working well for us. There is workshop space for individual artists in Townhall Cavan. We got studio spaces on the upper floor. We have three studios. There are artists working there all the time. Our problem is attracting people who are not from the area. As a result of housing prices, we do not have a place for artists to come to Cavan to live and do their work there. The studios themselves are working very well.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I love how Mr. McIntyre called it the Heather Humphreys scheme.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am not doubting it.
Ms Anna Walsh:
One of the big difficulties for the 70-odd arts centres throughout the country is that the funding mix on the capital side is as varied. For every situation Mr. McIntyre has described, there is another situation where it is a different mix of funding. It is challenging for any director or manager of an arts centre to navigate all those sources of funding and, in some cases, find matched funding, as well as doing the capital works and programming the venue. There are no clear pathways or framework to access that funding and make it easy. People who run community groups, arts groups or venues are not project managers for major capital programmes yet the environmental and sustainability targets are there for everybody and they need to be responded to and met. It requires investment, however.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I am out of time but if there is a second round of questions, I will return to the issue of workspaces.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for the work they do. I will begin with Ms Walsh and Mr. McIntyre. Ms Walsh referred to the 70-odd arts spaces nationwide. Is the review to which reference was made complete in terms of the analysis of the work required to bring some of those spaces up to standard?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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From a practical and theatrical point of view, how many of the 70 centres need major improvements?
Ms Anna Walsh:
That data is not available without doing an SEAI assessment or a similar assessment. It needs that level of expertise. There are obvious things with every arts centre but every building is different. They range from Victorian theatres to buildings dating from the early years of this century.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Exactly. Mr. McIntyre referred to the vision in the context of Cavan. I come from County Meath. We have the Solstice Arts Centre in Navan, the new centre that has opened in Trim and the theatre in Ratoath. That came from the vision of Meath County Council. I was a councillor at the time. I turned the sod on and opened the Solstice Arts Centre in Navan when I was a councillor. That came from a collaboration of the arts community and the local authority pursuing that dream and making sure the centre was fit for purpose. We discussed this earlier in the year. Some county councils are better than others in this sphere. I will get to Mr. Croffy in a moment. In one sense, I would hate to take this away from that level of local government. Too much has been taken from local government. I appreciate what the witnesses are saying in terms of a national framework but I had more trust in Meath County Council to make sure it got that job done and accessed funding at a national level. It then wanted to drive on, so it created the additional centre in Trim. It is trying to meet that-----
Ms Anna Walsh:
Before Mr. McIntyre responds, I make the point that we are not suggesting that any of those responsibilities should be taken away. In fact, more responsibilities should be vested in local authorities because they comprise representatives living and working in those localities. It is very difficult for any arts centre or organisation, however, to navigate the system whereby that local authority funding to the arts centre or organisation is entirely arbitrary and rolled over annually. It is a discretionary spend rather than a mandatory one in terms of the annual budget and that means it is precarious. In the same way that artists' income is precarious, the allocation or award of local authority funding to an arts centre rolls on from year to year.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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That is why these hearings are important in the context of their place within budgets. Ultimately, that is up to councillors. During the recession, we were adamant in ensuring we would not cut from that sector even though many people saw it as low-hanging fruit. In fairness, Tom Dowling, the county manager in Meath at the time, was adamant that would not happen.
I will touch base with Mr. Cavanagh, Mr. Hannaway and Mr. Hayden. St. Mary's Musical Society, Navan, which is my local musical society, will launch its Christmas productions this Friday. I am a long-standing member of the society. It will put on 11 productions in December. I wish it well. Reference was made to the challenges faced in this context and the societies that are performing well. St. Mary's Musical Society, Navan is self-sufficient and generates big income to meet its costs. How many societies among the membership of the Association of Irish Musical Societies are of a similar standard to that society?
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
Most societies have to do it. If they do not, they will not be there the following year. They all work off a very low base. For every society, the fundraising they have to do every year to augment the money they get from ticket sales for their shows, plus the income they get from local sponsorship and sponsorship in their programme or whatever, is a constant challenge. The different routes for funding the show come under pressure all the time as costs continue to rise. My society puts on shows in the Town Hall Theatre in Galway. Our show opens tonight and I will be back there for opening night. The cost to rent the Town Hall Theatre from Galway City Council for our production has gone up by €1,000 since last year, however. All societies are under constant pressure to come up with funding through whatever means possible. If they do not have sufficient funding, they have to source more funding or, as is happening, take a year out to fundraise to get back on a level playing field.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It is about the increase in costs. I will move to Mr. Croffy in that regard. Before he launches into a series of the issues that were not so good, I thank him for his words in respect of the supports during Covid. He spoke about the reform of local government. I fully agree with his synopsis of the so-called reform by the former Minister, Phil Hogan. I was Fianna Fáil spokesperson on local government in the previous Dáil. As I stated when I introduced a town council Bill, it was butchery. I served as a town and county councillor for 17 consecutive years. The changes in question took away a layer of statutory functions in towns and urban centres. We were able to create the centre in Navan to which I referred because, although the county council was bankrupt at the time, the town council was solvent. We were able to raise bank loans as a separate financial entity and finance the construction of that arts centre. I fully agree with Mr. Croffy in that regard, but I disagree with him in another respect. I acknowledge the challenges in terms of a town clerk being able to run down and hold a space. In many towns, there are standing committees for events such as that. He referred to homecomings. In Kerry, there is a full-time standing homecoming committee. God help us, we in Meath have not had the need to do so for some time. We had the plan, however. For example, when Elysha Brennan from Meath won the Rose of Tralee in 2015, we took out the plan for public space management on the Fair Green in Navan. I acknowledge the pressures on local authority staff now. They cannot bring people together in terms of insurance and crowd management because if they did so and it went wrong, they would be in here before a committee. Mr. Croffy referred to the growing dichotomy between the professional arts administrator and the keen and committed community activist. I see that in other aspects of life as well. If we do not have a professional person driving much of what happens, however, it will get lost.
How much in real terms are the pressures and increasing costs mentioned by Mr. Cavanagh adding to the diminution in the number of events that are happening across the country?
Mr. Colm Croffy:
It is significant. There are pressures on costs. My colleague from AIMS has mentioned the increase in rental space, which is primarily driven by utility costs. There is an increase in cost-of-living expenses, which everyone is feeling, but the other pressure I spoke about in the submission is the inability for the local community to get its hands on what used to be easy money to get, that is, sponsorship from the high street from businesses and retail. That is very difficult to get now in today's environment. To be fair to all the various authorities, funding is great and it is possibly better than it was a decade or two decades ago. It is a hell of a lot better, but an organisation still needs a fair shake, perhaps 60% to 70% of its own money, to create an event and for it to take place.
The other thing I would say is that in the 1990s and the early 2000s we had a lot more events for free. There are certainly a lot more community and local events now that are taking a modest charge or luach isteach at the door, which is trying to sandbag or ameliorate some of these cost rises for venues and everything else.
If I could beg Senator Cassells's indulgence for a moment, Senator Malcolm Byrne referred to the fund of the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Humphreys. I fully agree with the point that it would be a loss to the whole sector if we lose the professionalisation of arts administration and the husbandry of the artistic and creative. That is very important. That has come on in leaps and bounds on the island in three decades. What the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and Deputy Ó Cuív before her did as Minister, have done is they invested in the community facilities on the island so that there are more venues operating outside of Arts Council activities, standards, policies and procedures than there is inside the cap. For instance, my own theatre in Ballinasloe, a 420-seat theatre is not on any official list. There are only two official Arts Council funded theatres in County Galway, one is in Áras Éanna, and the other is in the city, the Town Hall Theatre. The rest do not exist officially. The Minister spent €340,000 on sustainability and green measures, changing all the windows and improving the roof on a Victorian venue from 1842, which happily hosted the 100th anniversary celebration of our musical society only a few weeks ago. There is a raft of investment going into community and arts venues that are not picked up by what my good colleague in the Theatre Forum and the Arts Council and arts officers are funding. If there is to be an audit of what is needed for the next 30 or 40 years of community activity and professional activity it should possibly include some of the other venues that my colleagues east and west of me around the table are using.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Local government is now able to access funds that did not exist heretofore from the Minister, Deputy Humphrey's, Department in particular. They are taking funds from outside the normal strands of the arts sector but they are putting it back in. The Minister turned a 250-year old Church of Ireland church that had been dilapidated for 100 years into a library, which was opened during the summer. Tom French, a librarian in Meath works hand-in-hand with the Solstice Arts Centre in Navan.
Mr. Croffy is right that the high street has changed massively in terms of family businesses, but that is life. The Navan amateur drama festival, the Navan musical society festival and sports groups in town are tapping those branded places on the High Street because those boys want to buy community. That might sound like a crass thing to say, but they want in. They want that sense of what they cannot have through natural family interaction. The big guys are trying to buy it through community alliance with the existing community. At the end of the day, the groups are ending up with more money. I see the advertising brochures for these groups and they are bringing in way more money because they are tapping these guys because they know they have the money to spend, way more than the family guy ever did. The best of luck to them.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am going against convention here but Senator Dolan is present and she is under a bit of time pressure. She is not a committee member but I propose that we allow her to take Senator Carrigy's place in his absence. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome and thank all the contributors. Local festivals and arts festivals are something I have a particular grá for, in particular where I grew up. Mr. Croffy is a native of Ballinasloe as well. Our Town Hall Theatre, musical society and the town band are all elements in a town that has the guts of 7,000 people in the urban area and it probably has a catchment of 14,000. It is probably not considered an extremely large town by Irish standards yet there is a wealth of talent, art and creativity there. As Mr. Cavanagh knows, the amateur musical society celebrated 100 years in recent weeks. We were delighted to be able to have that celebration. As he mentioned, it is about volunteerism. He also mentioned about ten different groups: musical directors, choreographers, front of house, make-up – my own aunt did a lot of the make-up and my cousin is very closely involved with this group as well at a national level. It just shows the wealth and talent that is coming through our small towns and the importance of funding.
Of the rest of the groups, Mr. Hannaway of the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland talked very much about the intergenerational aspect and how all ages come together in the musicals and how it brings joy. For a couple of days there is such excitement and an adrenaline rush from everything that happens on opening night right through to the final night. Mr. Cavanagh spoke as well about the number of productions and how 500,000 people would see them. It is absolutely incredible.
I will pose a question to Mr. Cavanagh and Mr. Croffy and perhaps some of the other groups might come in as well. Where are the challenges with the funding streams? It was mentioned that funding has moved from the Department to the Arts Council. How do we ensure that these groups can fight for funding on merit to be able to operate and to foster the sense of volunteerism? What I see on the ground is that after Covid there is a challenge with the community spirit and getting volunteers. How do we do that with what we have now and not lose the wealth and creativity that we have?
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
I am pretty sure that people are still getting involved creatively and with societies. That is still there. Our show opens tonight and runs for five nights until Saturday. There is a wealth of talent that we can tap into to provide all the people necessary for all the different functions that we need to stage a show. We could have up to 100 people involved in staging a show between the cast and everybody else. That has not changed. I travel around to see the shows of different societies. I was in Coolmine last night for the opening of its show and we stayed over so we could be here today. That is happening. I know that Boyle is opening its show in a couple of weeks as well.
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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"The Hunchback of Notre Dame".
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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What funding do we need?
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
We need to have ring-fenced funding. The Arts Council say clearly that it is not its remit to fund local community arts. That is the bailiwick of councils through arts officers. It is a case of how we ring-fence it rather than, in effect, going with a begging bowl and asking how much they can give us this year and to apply under the different schemes an arts officer can come up with. It is so haphazard. For example, there is no scheme whereby Mr. Foley, as national secretary, can say to all the societies that there is a scheme and groups could apply to their council and that funding would be available.
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Cavanagh.
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Cavanagh. I might include Mr. Croffy.
Mr. Colm Croffy:
I will respond very briefly. My colleague in the Theatre Forum is right. Local authorities are best placed to deliver this type of funding. The difficulty is if they have to fund local community arts and creative activity from within the rateable vote, which is always under pressure. We need a way to ring-fence that by the Arts Council or perhaps Creative Ireland could do it and to bring the money direct from national funding.
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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Do we need more than one arts officer? When we look at the arts officer element within local authorities, is one arts officer or heritage officer sufficient in Galway, which is the second largest county?
Do we have enough in our local authorities?
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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There is that support at local authority level.
Mr. Colm Croffy:
There is. As well as Creative Ireland, some of the groups here have been funded to resource people who are activists and producers in the space to do things more collaboratively. It might be more useful in the long term, if there were a pot of money that would allow us work better together to encourage sharing of audience and best practice across the different art programmes.
Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I know Mr. Croffy also highlights the importance of our libraries. I want it understood that those protected spaces owned by our local authorities are crucial to delivering drama across all groups.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations and ongoing contribution to the richness of our communities. Colleagues always talk about their local connections. I am always tempted, coming from Gorey, County Wexford, to say we almost do not need to boast about our successes on the artistic scene. Mr. Croffy may know that the Association of Irish Festivals and Events, AOIFE, was among the founders of our summer festival in Gorey. It is that rich tapestry of life that makes up our communities. The Government has gone a long way towards supporting the professional arts. There have been significant increases in additional funding for the Arts Council and the basic income scheme for artists has been introduced. We see major investment in some of the national cultural institutions like the national theatre and National Concert Hall. These are all welcome moves and they work well to support artistic activity nationally. The purpose of this report is about how we can support community and voluntary arts. What is going on in urban and rural communities around the country? I will give Mr. Croffy the opportunity to make some practical recommendations about particular lines the association would like to see in the report. We will obviously be raising this with the Minister, the Arts Council and others.
I come to the point raised by AIMS, the DLI and the ADCI about the specific line of funding that should be provided to each of the organisations. How would they ask the committee to recommend that funding line should come? I will let them think about it. Should it be a direct funding line from the Arts Council or from the Department? Would they recommend the Arts Council set aside specific funding streams in this regard? I have suggested before, to some other organisations before the committee, that we develop an arts capital programme in much the same way as we have a sports capital programme. I think that may address some of the challenges for arts centres, theatres and venues.
I will make two general points on which I would like the witnesses to comment. I will allow whoever wants to, to come in on the recommendations. The first point is about the training and supports that may be available. What supports might the State be able to put in place to improve the craft of local voluntary theatre and musical groups? The witnesses will also be aware there is a plan to introduce drama, film and theatre studies at leaving certificate level, which will be welcome. I assume they are excited about that. How can the introduction of that, in our second level system, support the activity all of the organisations engage with on the ground? I appreciate that is a lot.
Mr. Edward Hayden:
We are today getting a sense of the inculcation of the vibrancy of community arts. We see ourselves as very much at the centre of that. Our recommendations going forward are multipronged. The last tranche of funding we received was multi-beneficial. We were supporting professional people to engage as tutors and facilitators of drama courses and programmes. This in turn enhanced the standards of our members. If we think of any of our operations, standards are key. Aside from the world of drama we are a voluntary organisation with one assiduous administrator who is paid on a part-time basis. My background, aside from that, is in education. I work in South East Technological University as a lecturer. We are cognisant of the benefits of education and the advancements education can bring. The courses we offer are facilitated by professional people, who have the opportunity to get a revenue stream from that. The benefits to our members are also wide reaching.
We were talking about the local authority. There is an opportunity for funding streams to come from a parallel basis. We would obviously love the continuation of the last tranche funding, which enabled us to support professionals and enhance our members. We would also love to see greater autonomy in terms of local government funding. We run a successful summer school in the University of Limerick every year. A lot of the arts officers and county councils, though not all, provide a scholarship to allow people to go, for which they can apply on a competitive basis. I suppose in terms of equality and inclusion, that means people are not precluded from it due to financial limitations.
The Senator mentioned the new cycle of drama, theatre and film studies education. We see that, not necessarily as the primary learning source, but as something to act as a benefit for those who will be teaching it. There obviously will have to be robust indicative content compiled around that. We see the benefit of our courses in terms of the practical course and craft skills that our members are engaging in.
Mr. Liam Hannaway:
The Senator asked about the importance of the grant. When the initial approach was made to the Minister, the idea was that it would come straight from the Department because the Arts Council is very much targeted at the professional as opposed to the amateur theatre. That is where it gets lost, and that is why we feel it is important. My second point is about cost. A lot of drama festival committees, including the Íontas drama festival and Townhall Cavan, utilise artistic spaces across local authority areas. I suppose we are slightly different because we are an all-Ireland body. There is the situation in the North and the situation in the South. Drama groups coming North-South on a cross-Border basis makes it slightly different. Money coming straight from the Department might be easier to deal with.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I suggest we might recommend it is an area in which the shared island unit should engage more fully.
Mr. Liam Hannaway:
As important as the shared island unit is, I make the point in my submission that the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland was working on a shared island basis long before it. Community groups and cross-community working has been happening across drama festivals like Dundalk, Cavan, Portadown and Newry. Anyone who has been involved in, or visited them, will know that. That was happening between the 1960s and 1980s, when times were very bad. It did not stop the drama movement operating, which was critical.
I will pick up on the Senator's last point about drama courses. What better way for a young person to start if they are thinking about drama as a course? We have drama A-levels in the North. A lot of people who get involved with the Irish society or with running festivals start off by doing a course. They were able to use the amateur theatres to hone their skills. They then ask themselves if it is a life they want to lead, in terms of going on to studying drama, culture and the arts at third level.
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
This has been an ongoing issue with us and Arts Council, with which we are in continual contact. An actual funding stream for musical theatre does not exist.
Musicals are put in with opera, which is specifically funded. There is a massive need to allocate separate funding for musical theatre so that it can stand in its own right, rather that seeing whether something is left in another budget to be given to it. That has been a major issue.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We have raised this previously and the line is to recommend to the Arts Council that musical theatre be recognised as a separate art form.
Mr. Frank Foley:
I want to mention the role of schools. I have been teaching for almost 40 years. For many years prior to the new curriculum developments in drama, St. Jarlath's College in Tuam, St. Mary's College in Rathmines and schools throughout the country had youth theatre or student productions. We should get things right for them at primary and post-primary level and then look at areas of curriculum development.
Another point I want to make is a sort of a curveball. I am from Waterford but I have been living in Inchicore in Dublin 8 for more than 35 years. If we go from here towards Heuston Station and look for an arts venue or centre where my local society in Inchicore could put on a local drama or musical, it would be very difficult to find one. We are in Inchicore and we are trying to beg, borrow and steal with regard to venues. Forget about funding; go back to the basics of looking for a theatre that can put on a musical in an urban space in Dublin 8. We do not have one. The Tivoli Theatre is gone. The Rupert Guinness Theatre is gone. There was a fabulous art deco library on Emmet Road that Miami Beach in Florida would have loved but it is gone. People have been speaking about Cork, Cavan and Galway, and well done to them. An awful lot of work has been done by local authorities but I wonder about the urban-rural divide. Where are we at in Dublin with regard to bringing musicals and drama to our local communities?
Mr. Colm Croffy:
The sports capital funding model sometimes puts communities competing against each other, whereby we must all have a lawnmower, a track around our playing fields and outside lights. There are nine sets of outside lights in my town. If they were all on at the same time the planes would not land in Knock but in my town. That is the downside of the sports capital funding. It is not that it is not welcome; it is. Perhaps the decade of centenaries would be a very good model to look at. Local authorities, the County and City Management Association, the Department and the heritage officers connived and combined – and I use these two words advisedly – in the structures of bureaucracy to deliver at ground zero level meaningful commemorations in a sensitive and embracing way that did not leave anyone feeling left out or excluded. We know there were some issues but perhaps that is a model that can be used.
In its recommendations the committee needs to separate the animation and activation of local community arts activity from the capital package in which it occurs. The capital element of funding for where the activity takes place should be sequestered, with a line budget direct to the Department. It should not be hindered by Arts Council standing policies and otherwise, which are all very good and address the needs of the creative and professional artist and professional arts production. The capital element of funding should be provided in a way that allows for the ecology of what the groups here today are discussing. That would be very useful. The animation and activation elements, of which we all require more, should be funded through a ring-fenced scheme under the local authorities.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of the witnesses for coming before the committee and for the remarkable work they do in nurturing and enriching communities throughout the country in their artistic endeavours. It is mind-boggling what they achieve with very limited resources. I thank them for that. This is an area about which I am very passionate. My wife and I ran an 80-seat theatre for five years until those beautiful people that supposedly back brave decided to pull the financial rug from under us.
There are many strands to the discussion today, all of which could lead us to a far better funded sector with a far more sustainable future. I want to pull together a few of the strands. I agree with Mr. Croffy - and it is great to see the lights shining on Ballinasloe - that we need to look at two separate funding strands. One should fund the actual endeavour and local activity, be it amateur drama, musical theatre or songwriters trying to make their way in the early stages of developing a career. The other should fund the places where they will perform. Have any of the witnesses put thought into replicating the sports capital scheme to develop an arts capital scheme? To be frank, it would not take a lot of work in terms of the structures and administrative structures. There is as much merit to be gained from the arts.
Mr. Croffy referred to the extraordinary successes of the sports capital scheme in supporting urban and rural communities throughout the country to develop world-class facilities. Within a ten-minute drive from my home, there are two Olympic standard 400 m running tracks, all because the sports capital mechanism is there. It leveraged an extraordinary amount of local endeavour. Sports capital funding is not only about the money; it is what it unlocks in the community in terms of its ambition. With little support an organisation can go to its community and say it has €150,000 in sports capital funding and it needs to raise another €100,000. This unlocks extraordinary community hard work, endeavour and commitment and it happens. Would the witnesses and the organisations they represent support the committee if we were to make a key recommendation in our report that there should be a national arts capital scheme very similar to the sports capital scheme? I believe we should do so. It would not take a lot of work to re-engineer how the sports capital scheme works and direct it towards the arts.
Back in 2019, the Arts Council received approximately €75 million a year. Now it receives €135 million a year. This is an extraordinary transformation. The basic income for artists is also wonderful. To be frank, the Minister, Deputy Martin, and her predecessor will go down as having done something powerful. They will have left an excellent legacy in terms of arts funding nationally. Every time we have increased funding for the Arts Council, I have asked where is the funding for our local communities. I think of the arts officer in Galway County Council and all of the wonderful things she would like to do but she has very limited resources available to her. Mr. Croffy has suggested, and perhaps he is right and I have no reason to question his wisdom and extraordinary experience, that we leave aside the Arts Council, and let it do what it is doing, and that we create a unique and new funding stream solely for artistic production and endeavour at local level. I believe this should also become a key recommendation of our report.
What are the perspectives of the witnesses on an arts capital scheme? We have seen the rural regeneration and development fund of the Minister, Deputy Humphreys. I might suggest - and I am not joking - that next year we hold a meeting of this committee in places such as the Ramor Theatre in Virginia, County Cavan. That would give us a sense of what is possible when a community comes together and works hand-in-glove with the State and the Government to develop something truly extraordinary. We need to see and feel this in order for us to be able to move forward and suggest similar outcomes from a national perspective. What should an arts capital scheme look like? Have the witnesses made any approaches to the Department or the Arts Council and, if so, what has been their response?
Are we in the very early stages of this? I honestly do not know.
Ms Anna Walsh:
We are at the early stages. In our presentation earlier we were putting the emphasis on the capital investment because that is on behalf of our members. We firmly believe it is an "and and" scenario. It is capital investment and continued investment in the programme. That programme, whether it is Arts Council investment in the work of what I described as professional companies or all of the local and community groups, where there is equally valuable if not more important work happening, is about programme investment in both. It is not one at the expense of the other. On the sports capital scheme, the only analogy I can think of that might be useful is that arts centres are the pitches of the sports capital programme.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Correct.
Ms Anna Walsh:
They need to be developed, maintained, invested in and available to every community group that wants to avail of them. There is another factor, which has not come up but which is worth thinking about, namely, audience profiles. Audiences are getting older and they are not necessarily coming back in the same numbers that people might have expected them to post Covid. Future generations of audiences need to participate and engage with local, community and professional arts at early stages in their school, college and early work years. If the audience of the future is to be there, it has to happen earlier and that needs to take place in every community, at every age and at every level, including across all art forms. The experience of performing in, working with, engaging with and attending professional, amateur and voluntary community arts events and festivals is a necessity if those audiences are to be maintained.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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A home.
Mr. Padraic McIntyre:
A proper home. The high attendance numbers have returned to Cavan Drama Festival. Those numbers were on the floor because of the poor facilities it was operating in. It had to move to a rugby club because of leaking roofs. Now we are back in the Townhall Cavan, where it has been for 75 years and now the numbers are back up. That is down, in part, to professional management and marketing teams working with the committee to get the message out there about that drama festival. The other thing Ms Walsh mentioned is the older audience. I notice that from running two venues in Cavan. The age profile of our people-----
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is going up?
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. McIntyre explain why that is happening?
Mr. Padraic McIntyre:
A few years were lost with Covid and there were a number of years when people were not brought in, but there should be no divide in the debate on getting young people involved, whether that is professional or amateur, as Ms Walsh said, and that connects with training. I started as an amateur actor in Bailieborough Drama Group, I attended these festivals in Lislea and I went as a student to the DLI drama school in Maynooth, where it was at the time. I have been back to teach in the one in Limerick and I adjudicate at these drama festivals. I ended up as a professional actor and I work as a theatre manager. The training came through this whole system so I live in both worlds that happen here and I understand that. Some 25% of our box office in both Townhall Cavan and in the Ramor Theatre comes from amateur shows, the same if not more than professional theatre, so I do not like this attempt to create a divide. The DLI got money and it employed professional actors to deliver its courses so this is all about connecting the dots together.
Mr. Colm Croffy:
Let us look at the sports capital programme, the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF, and the rural and village schemes that have been rolled out as a model of template, and I was being a bit facetious about the lights. The beauty of those schemes is that they factor in volunteer hours on the production of the capital. If ten of this man's colleagues want to assist in painting the backstage area, that will be factored in. If 25 of this gentleman's colleagues want to mow the lawn and maintain the landscape of the two pitches, that is not a problem. If we go under an Arts Council-led capital scheme, no local will change a lightbulb because of the operational costs and the technical specifications that are required to fulfil those schemes. I have filled in a few sports capital schemes applications at community level and I have looked at the schemes run by the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Minister, Deputy Humphreys. They are far more community-sensitive in how the money can be drawn down. I still think what was said earlier is correct, that you cannot exploit capital at the expense of animation. A methodology of funding animation at the coalface has to be found that is better than the ones we have.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I will make a final point. What you are setting out to do is to create a cultural ecosystem at community level. If the talent is to emerge, which talent the Arts Council may support, it will emerge through that ecosystem. If it is not there, you are losing out on so much opportunity. I remember as a teenager seeing Colm Wilkinson singing in Jesus Christ Superstarin Loughrea with the Loughrea Musical Society. Two years later he was on the West End in Les Misérables. That opportunity needs to be presented over and over again at community level and I am disappointed in the Arts Council. The way it has approached this seems to keep that at arm's length and it seems to have no interest in even acknowledging that it has a role in Irish cultural life. The committee needs to look at proposing alternatives, such as a direct funding stream that recognises and acknowledges that importance.
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
AISM supports the idea of a sports capital grant. There are so many societies and school halls which could take advantage of somewhere better if it were available. I can think of Ballinrobe, which has a successful society in the west. It would have audiences of 500 and 600 at some of its shows. That runs for a week and it does fantastic shows. It is only now after about 30 years that Ballinrobe is finally at the stage where it will get its own theatre back up and running again but it has taken this long to get there and they are having to do an awful lot to bring it that distance. I support the idea of a sports capital grant.
As for audiences, in our experience-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We will have to move on because I will ask my questions and then we have to go around again for further questions. Mr. Cavanagh can possibly answer it later on.
Mr. Feargal Cavanagh:
I will be brief. The profile of the people using the theatre and their audiences is going down. Maybe it is that I am getting older - I do not know - but I was at shows last night, there were shows last week and we have shows for the next three nights, and the people who are there are getting younger all of the time and they are loving it.
Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is positive to hear that and I am not surprised either. Lyric FM has had a part to play in that. "Movies and Musicals" is one of the most listened-to shows and it is expanding to a new audience.
This session is important and the onus is on the committee to put together a strong and robust report with recommendations. It seems to me that one of the key recommendations and one of the first things we have to look at is potentially a specific funding stream. Whether that is administered through the local authorities or wherever, it needs to happen. The example I give is as follows. Mr. McIntyre mentioned that theatre in Cavan that was funded under the RRDF, which is amazing, but the problem with the RRDF and an issue we have had is that local authorities are only allowed to put forward a certain amount of projects for funding. It could be four or five for the entire county. Cork was mentioned, which is a huge county. If there are four or five projects in Cork, then it is easy to imagine the towns and villages that will be left out. Those four or five projects will not necessarily be successful either. They are competing with amenities, playgrounds, tourist attractions and everything else, and the odd theatre is winning out, probably because they are such good projects and because they make sense. We have to take away that competition and I back the calls of Senator Byrne and Deputy Cannon for a specific sports capital-type fund. That would help.
We are talking a lot about the renovation of existing theatres. There are some quite large towns that have no indoor public performance space or theatre, whatever you want to call it. Is that something the organisations present are looking at in trying to identify suitable buildings or spaces where there might not be a structure at the moment, namely, a site for purpose-built theatres?
Ms Anna Walsh:
The financial model of arts centres and theatres around the country was severely damaged during Covid because, previously, the balance of Arts Council, local authority and earned income from box office was reasonably at a break-even level for most arts centres around the country. A drop-off in box office income and a huge increase in costs has affected that income and made it unsustainable for the future.
There are serious challenges facing existing art centres unless the financial model is completely changed. The expectation and potential around box office income, in addition to the other funding awarded by the Arts Council, the local authorities, etc., in smaller and smaller population centres is part of this challenge.
Perhaps what is more important is looking at the potential to connect, through public transport, some of those towns, villages and places with existing and upgraded art centres in their localities, bearing in mind that there are now many counties and local authority areas with one, two and possibly three arts centres in them. A more imaginative look at public transport connections, therefore, around show times and into the evening might be a better and more sustainable solution than more buildings, because the buildings-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I get Ms Walsh's point completely, but something like that would not work in County Cork.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Clonakilty is my home town. We do not have a purpose-built theatre performance space, which, considering the wealth of artistic talent there, is a surprise. We do have the Kilmeen drama group, just a 15-minute drive out the road, but along a couple of very windy roads. I am not sure about private and public transport in that regard. We definitely do not have a DART service. I do take Ms Walsh's point, however. I call Mr. Hayden.
Mr. Edward Hayden:
Of course, Kilmeen drama group is widely respected on the amateur drama scene and hosted the 2019 all-Ireland finals down in the beautiful theatre in Rossmore. I pick up on the point that none of us are here in competition with each other but our needs are different. We see ourselves as a significant contributor and provider of the programming for some of the art centres and theatres around the country. Obviously, if they are suitably and adequately funded, then that means access to those venues would not be precluded by cost.
Of the 600 groups we represent in the Drama League of Ireland, we must think of the creativity the people involved therein are exercising in the community. There is such community generosity shown in terms of rehearsal spaces from schools, community halls, etc. This is that sense of being a community. We would love to have the option of exploring having development officers who would be able to mobilise themselves and go around the country to support, advise and, perhaps, set up endeavours. I refer to looking at where there is an extremely good facility and setting up a drama operation around it.
We bring out a biannual magazine. In the last edition, we had an interview with the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach's colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, who spoke about her time in the drama group in Mountbellew. The contents of that story ended up in Róisín Ingle's article in The Irish Times, whereby it was suggested that the Minister of State might consider setting up a drama group here in Leinster House, with several of the protagonists involved.
Mr. Edward Hayden:
When we were talking, Mr. McIntyre mentioned the people who progressed and migrated in this context. We are talking about many people. The Cathaoirleach Gníomhach mentioned Kilmeen drama group and there is the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in Mountbellew, so many people have their foot in amateur drama and it is important this is supported. I think, in fairness, it is respected.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Byrne's eyes are lighting up at the thoughts of a drama society here in Leinster House.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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He would insist on being the lead-----
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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There would be far too much competition for some of the roles, I can tell you.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We are under pressure for time, and I know other people wish to come in, so I will move to my next question. A fund was recently set up by the Department of the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Heather Humphreys, for repurposing old buildings, town centre buildings, with a focus on remote working and e-hubs. In this context, I think the potential for new theatres and performance spaces, which would be multi-use but with a focus on performance, is amazing. I would love to see this direction pursued. It is something I would like to see discussed further, perhaps in the report.
To move to my final question, to Mr. Croffy, on public spaces, I get his point concerning insurance and the difficulties in this regard. Senator Cassells mentioned the point that it depends on local authorities and their willingness to co-operate and see solutions rather than obstacles. We are lucky that we have a new public realm space down where I am. There are two areas in particular that were never used for public performances and now every festival and event sees a public performance there. It does, therefore, depend on the local authority. What towns are missing, though, are covered stages. Regarding addressing summertime solutions or festivals and events involving putting on outdoor productions, I would like to hear Mr. Croffy's thoughts concerning whether it would be overkill to suggest the idea of municipal districts being given funding or resources to source their own outdoor stages that could be erected overnight for performances? Would he think this would be overkill?
Mr. Colm Croffy:
No, it would not. During the Covid-19 pandemic, two schemes were announced by the Department in respect of temporary public realm infrastructure to address those gaps in terms of staging and stage coverings. I am also aware that under the previous round of LEADER funding, several forward-thinking companies in this context got clusters of villages and community development hubs to group purchase marquees, awnings, stages, public address, PA, systems and lights so they could share those facilities on a round-robin basis, provided some municipal district or central storage point and caretaker access was provided. This is the future. Not every community arts group is going to own their own photocopier here in 15 years. We will have to learn that sharing is not just for "Sesame Street".
Regarding the pressure on venue usage in places where they are sparse, and I would have thought Clonakilty would have had several venues, I am thinking of Monksland, a large suburb of Athlone, which has one school, 8,000 people and not even a synagogue. I can offer the example of the Netherlands in this regard. Over the past four years, the Dutch authorities received a gift of 1,200 churches from the former Dutch Reformed Church, and that may very well happen here in time as well, where several synagogues may be returned to the State and repurposed for a variety of things.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, and a lot of churches as well.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We are under some time pressure and we have two members who have not contributed yet. I call Senator Carrigy. I cannot afford him the full six minutes because we have to suspend.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late. I was struck by the comment made about drama here in Leinster House. Some people think there is already a drama group here and we would not need to set one up.
Regarding outdoor spaces, this is the way to go. During the Covid-19 pandemic, several community groups in County Longford, where I am from, bought into this approach. We now have several outdoor spaces in place. I like the idea of something being kept centrally in the municipal district of the county council that could be moved around to various local areas if a performance was being put on, rather than going down the route of having significant capital spending, which would not be possible for every group. Where there are larger populations, we do need performance spaces as well as facilities for groups to practise in before putting on performances. At home in County Longford, I hear a lot about this point. We have many small drama groups in many local communities that struggle sometimes to find places to practise.
I am blessed. We have a wealth of talent in County Longford. We have a fantastic musical society in St. Mel's which has been operating for more than 40 years. I love attending every year and I will be back again next year. I forget now what the group will be doing, but it was only announced recently what that performance will be. We are also blessed to have a fantastic theatre like the Backstage Theatre, as well as the exhibition space in it. There is also a brilliant adult and youth theatre group. Additionally, there is the Evolution Stage School, which operates throughout the midlands but has a school based in Longford town. Hundreds of kids are learning various dance, song and music routines and putting on fantastic shows. These are the youngsters who then filter up into the musical society, the Longford Variety Group, etc. There are also dance schools. I think we have the Shawbrook and Peelo schools of dance in County Longford. For a small county, I we fight above our level with the amount of talent we have. A great deal of work is going into many voluntary organisations. Many people are putting in the effort to train people and put on fantastic entertainment for us throughout the year.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but I inform the Senator there is a vote in the Seanad, just in case he was not aware. Senator Carrigy can use his remaining minute, and then the witnesses can answer in his absence.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Yes. There used to be the 1% arts fund for community or arts projects in the regions. It now seems to be gone. What are the views of the witnesses on this fund being brought back? Would it be something they would support? About ten years ago, I undertook a project at home myself under the auspices of that fund. Approximately 1% of the cost of a capital project was spent in an area and it was possible to identify an art project in a community. This seems to have stopped. What are the witnesses' views in this regard? I think it is a mechanism that should be brought back into operation.
Ms Anna Walsh:
I think it is still in place. The difficulty has been in actioning and implementing it.
Dublin City Council has reopened discussions about how that 1% for arts could be used for housing for artists or providing studio spaces for them, and to make those integral to developments. It has been difficult to get it put in place.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Or leverage for putting pieces of art in place more so. That practice seems to have stopped.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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How important are arts centres and theatres to address the chronic need for artists' workspaces? Is there is a role for them to play? Is the Arts Council supporting venues to create these workspaces? Senator Warfield helped me to draft that question. I would be lying if I said otherwise.
Mr. Padraic McIntyre:
As part of the development of Townhall Cavan, there are three studio spaces on the top floor. Two are for visual artists and there is one audiovisual studio. These have proved very popular. We run bursaries for three months, so there is money, through both the arts office and Townhall Cavan, as well as the space for the artists. They work there for periods of three months. The problem the arts office has come up against in the context of bigger bursaries relates to procurement.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the procurement of space?
Mr. Padraic McIntyre:
I mean the procurement of artists, because the county council regime for procurement is quite strict and does not always fit the artistic agenda we are trying to facilitate. Under e-tenders or whatever, more established artists or international artists can come to Cavan for six or nine months because there is a larger pot of money on offer. However, artists in general are not very good at tendering under these processes. We have run into some problems with that. We could draw down money from different schemes, between the Townhall Cavan and the arts office, for artists, but sometimes it is tricky to get that procured, for want of a better word, because it is not a load of gravel we are trying to buy.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Three months seems to be the best option.
Mr. Padraic McIntyre:
At the moment, three months is the best. Because of problems with accommodation, it seems to be very local and has worked well. As a result of the fact that it is three months, there are many artists involved. We are putting four through each studio every year, so that is eight in total. They are local artists. If we want to reach out to an artist in Dublin who might have no space and who absolutely wants to come to Cavan, he or she will come and see the studio. The money we are offering is fine, but then he or she will have no place to stay. Paying rent in either Dublin or Cavan is proving problematic. The workspaces are there; the accommodation is more problematic for us.
Mr. Colm Croffy:
A possible solution to a metropolitan issue like that is the Croí Cónaithe scheme introduced by the Government in the past 18 months. In east Galway, County Roscommon and north Clare, many artists have taken run-down rural premises. They use the mews or the stable to the back of the premises as their crafting kiln, studio, exhibition space or dance studio, and live in buildings at the front. In Galway city, there is huge pressure on artists in the context of trying to get studio space in order to rehearse or produce. They are coming out to Gort, Connemara and Oughterard. The a necklace of villages outside Galway is enjoying a huge house bounce from the Croí Cónaithe scheme, the pressure on the urban environment and rising costs and prices.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Heartfelt thanks to the witnesses for coming in. I found the discussion incredibly interesting. Senator Byrne gave an interesting statistic before we started, namely, that after the GAA, drama groups and musical societies have the biggest membership in our communities. That is an incentive for politicians to get behind them, but also just for the sheer joy that they bring to communities of all shapes and sizes throughout Ireland. It is extraordinary. On foot of this session, we should, as much as anything else, acknowledge the volunteers, amateur actors, amateur make-up artists and amateur set makers who put so much work into what they do. I thank the witnesses for attending.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. I am sure the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Niamh Smyth, would be happy about that