Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 1 March 2023
Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Union Affairs
Impact of Brexit on Ireland: Discussion
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go dtí an cruinniú agus roimh bhaill den choiste fosta. Today's meeting will discuss the impact Brexit has had on Ireland's trade and connectivity with the European Union, and how Ireland's two largest ports have responded to the challenges they have faced. Ar son an choiste, on behalf of the committee, cuirim fáilte roimh na daoine atá ag déanamh ionadaíochta ar Rosslare Europort, Mr. Glenn Carr, agus a chomhghleacaí, Mr. Barry Kenny. Mr. Carr is director of commercial business for Irish Rail, a role that includes overall responsibility for Rosslare Europort. Cuirim fáilte ag Mr. Barry O'Connell fosta agus a chomhghleacaí, Mr. Michael Sheery. Mr. O'Connell is chief executive of the Dublin Port Company since 2022 and is chairperson of the board of GOAL.
All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of any person or entity. Therefore, if a statement is potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks and must comply with that direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members participating must be physically present on the campus of Leinster House. Any members wishing to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member partaking via MS Teams to confirm they are on the campus prior to making a contribution to the meeting.
I call Mr. Carr to make his opening statement.
Mr. Glenn Carr:
Rosslare Europort is the second busiest port in the country. It is a port of strategic importance, which has never been demonstrated so much as over the past couple of years. It now handles between 18% and 20% of all ro-ro traffic in the country and almost 600,000 passengers passed through the port last year, which is just 5% below pre-Covid levels. The significant increase in shipping services has come about post Brexit. For example, at the start of 2020 we had six services to and from Rosslare to just one port in Europe. Today there are 36. That has resulted in the EU freight growing cumulatively by more than 398% in the past two years. We now serve the ports of Bilbao in Spain, Cherbourg, Le Havre, Dunkirk and Zeebrugge. Rosslare is now the number one port in Ireland for EU ro-ro and passenger services. It is important to point out that these new services, established post Brexit, were essential for our exporters and importers and for ensuring supply lines were provided an alternative to the UK land bridge, which had been the preferred route pre-Brexit. The new routes have also been important for the new supply chains that have been established directly with the EU and on which so many of our exporters and importers now rely.
As we emerge from Covid this summer, we will see a substantial increase in passenger services to Europe. We expect to see substantial activity between Rosslare and the ports in Spain and France in particular. This has been very positive and further strengthens our links with the EU, particularly providing education, economic, social and other benefits for the towns and regions associated with these ports. We are very confident that, two years post Brexit, we are seeing a trend of rising demand and a continuation of that demand for services to Europe. Most recently, we introduced a new service to Zeebrugge with Finnlines, which is part of the Grimaldi Group. Last weekend it doubled that capacity with the announcement of a second ship on that route. It gives us confidence that these direct services will be maintained and, over coming years, will be increased through extra capacity and the potential of additional new routes.
While European freight has been extremely positive, trade with the UK has been adversely affected by Brexit. UK traffic cumulatively is down 36% over the past two years. It is very evident that a substantial shift in the supply chain between Ireland and the UK has now occurred. It will be important that all stakeholders work collectively to ensure sustainability of these routes, which are very important for our connectivity with the UK.
It is positive that both operators, Irish Ferries and Stena Line, which operate to Fishguard and Pembroke, have maintained their schedules, but there is no doubt freight has been challenged. There are positives on the passenger side, with the advent of duty allowance on those vessels. Now that we have come through Covid-19, we will see substantial numbers using those services, from a passenger perspective. Our view is that, in the longer term, freight between Ireland and the UK will remain challenging.
A lot of planning went into the port, both pre and post Brexit. There was a temporary border inspection post facility, which remains fully operational today, just outside the port. That was helpful during the initial stages of Brexit because it meant all UK traffic that may have been affected and European traffic could move away from the berths and traffic that was to go into the border control post was directed outside of the port. There was a smooth transition. As we look back, we know the issues that were expected at ports related to heavy congestion did not materialise. This was mainly due to the planning put in place by all of the ports involved, the rapid shift to direct services and having the direct service capacity and frequency available for industry.
There will be significant investment in Rosslare Europort, particularly starting off later this year. We have agreed with the Office of Public Works, OPW, that the border inspection post now needs to come inside the port. That is required by the EU. The current post is outside the port and the secure zone. Technically, we were under a derogation for that operation, which will change over the next few years. We have reached agreement with the OPW regarding the phasing of works to build a new facility, which will be substantial on nearly 12 acres inside of the port. It will be aligned with our master plan to ensure the phase of works to deliver the master plan over the next three to four years is done in a synchronised way to ensure the port operates efficiently and safely for our customers and colleagues working at the port.
The other important development we have seen with Rosslare Europort, particularly with Wexford County Council, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, and the work of the elected representatives in County Wexford, is that the connectivity of Rosslare has been moved forward. It is important the road and rail development into the port continues because we must ensure Rosslare is easily accessible and connected to all major cities and industrial hubs throughout Ireland, so the port can be fully maximised for the position it is now in.
While it may seem like a separate matter, Rosslare Europort is ideally located for offshore renewable energy, ORE. It has undergone an extensive review of the opportunity for offshore wind renewable energy at Rosslare. We are in the advanced stages of design, planning and funding for that project, which will see the footprint of the port almost double. Rosslare will play a critical role as the first port in Ireland to support the offshore renewable energy industry for critical offshore wind development farms in phases one and two in the Irish and Celtic seas. Also, the links we have established with Europe as regards roll-on and roll-off shipping activity are also beneficial to this industry, as many of the smaller components come in on ro-ro vessels. Our connections to so many European ports will be beneficial to that industry.
From our point of view, while the past two years have been challenging, they were also successful. We are one of the fastest growing ports in Europe. We are one of the only ports in Europe to have the three largest ro-ro passenger brands in the world operating out of it. There are big investments we need to get on with now, which will happen later this year. Those works will be completed over the next three years. There will be challenges within those works as we have to upgrade the entire port. However, there has never been a better time to ensure we get that done because Rosslare Europort will continue to grow and play a leading role. Offshore wind development is in progress and it is also worth pointing out that once that facility is built, the site will be multi-modal, meaning that once the heavy offshore staging, marshalling, pre-construction and installation of the turbines are completed, there will be a great facility for the east coast which will be both ro-ro and lo-lo. Dublin will face some challenges and Rosslare Europort will be ideally positioned to support Dublin Port regarding transfer of excess traffic. It can easily move down to Rosslare, as we have seen in the last few years with Brexit.
Personally, and on behalf of Irish Rail and CIE, I thank the Ministers, Secretaries General and their teams from the Department of Transport, the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Department of Health, the Office of Public Works, TII, Wexford County Council and the elected representatives of County Wexford and the wider south east for their continued support of Rosslare Europort over the last two years. We look forward to that support continuing as we embark on ambitious investment plans for Rosslare Europort to ensure it remains a gateway to Europe and the offshore renewable energy hub of Ireland.
Mr. Barry O'Connell:
Good morning everyone. I am not sure to what extent the committee is familiar with Dublin Port so I will take a few minutes to give members some broader context before I get into addressing the specific question regarding Brexit.
Dublin Port Company is a State-owned, commercial semi-State company responsible for operating and developing Dublin Port. It is the largest freight and passenger port in Ireland and is one of five major ports classified as tier 1 and tier 2 ports in the national ports policy. Dublin Port is also categorised as a core-comprehensive port in the EU's TEN-T framework. Of the volumes which passed through Dublin Port in 2022, 40% were exports and 60% were imports, with some of these imports being raw materials that would eventually become exports. It is estimated that the value of exports is approximately three and a half times greater than imports. This implies that Dublin Port is not only an important hub for domestic trade but also a central pillar of Ireland’s export strategy. The port handles almost 50% of all mercantile trade in the Republic of Ireland, with its share of volume driven by three key factors. The first is the location of the port relative to the main population centre of Dublin city. Second is the depth of water at the port, which enables larger vessels to berth, and the third is access to the national road and rail infrastructure. The port is located in the heart of Dublin city and the hub of the national road and rail network. It is a key strategic access point for Ireland and the Dublin area. A recent origin and destination study indicated that 73% of port volumes had an origin or destination within 90 km of Dublin Port. Shortening this radius, the survey showed that 61% of volume had an origin or destination within 40 km of Dublin Port. Dublin Port is therefore inextricably linked with the national road infrastructure which supports it and offers a very cost-effective and efficient way of transporting imports and exports.
In understanding the impact of Brexit on Dublin Port and trade volumes between Ireland, Britain and Europe, it may be helpful if I outline the main modes of shipping traffic and freight that come in and out of Dublin Port. The majority of freight handled at Dublin Port is unitised, for example, those big 40 ft containers we all see. In gross tonnage terms, this accounts for 81% of trade at the port. This includes ro-ro freight and load on lo-lo freight. Ro-ro freight can involve driver-accompanied or driver-unaccompanied freight, which will be an important point as I go on to explain the impact of Brexit. Lo-lo freight is moved in an unaccompanied mode, with containers stored at the port and then collected from depots by heavy goods vehicles, HGVs, or by rail. The balance of trade at the port includes bulk liquid, bulk solid and break bulk, as well as trade vehicles and passenger traffic.
In examining the impact of Brexit on overall trade flows in Dublin Port, it is difficult to isolate the effects of Covid-19 and, of late, the war in Ukraine. It is our contention that the single most significant influence on volumes since 2019 has been Covid-19. In terms of trading volumes, 2019 was a record year for the port, so we tend to use this as a reference point. When considering volume trends within the port, we know from history that there is a strong correlation with overall economic performance and, more specifically, the personal consumption index, PCI. PCI declined by nearly 12% during lockdown in 2020, while port volumes declined by 3.4%. This was also the year during which the main Brexit changes happened. There was no material disruption to port business at that time, which is why we contend that the main impact on demand and overall volumes was driven by Covid-19.
As economies began to open up towards the end of 2021, PCI began to grow and port volumes also began to recover to the extent that, at year-end 2022, unitised volumes were only 2.2% behind the record 2019 numbers.
If the stockpiling that happened at the end of 2019 in anticipation of Brexit is discounted, it is fair to say by the end of 2022 Dublin Port was back to its record 2019 numbers. Passenger and tourist vehicle volumes are also returning to pre-Brexit, levels, although once again the major impact on tourists and seaborne visitors was more likely due to Covid than Brexit. As an aside, despite recessions, pandemics and international challenges, Dublin Port volumes have remained remarkably resilient over the past three decades. Compound average growth has been running at 5% per annum since 1990.
While Brexit may not have been the key driver of volume reduction in the 2020-21 period, there was some loss of volume to Northern Ireland ports. Their share of ro-ro increased from 41% in 2020 to 45% in 2021. It is our belief that this was as a result of a settling-in period during which operators were adjusting to the new restrictions north and south of the Border. By the end of 2022, the Northern Ireland ports' share had fallen back to 42%, which indicates a more settled position. Dublin Port shares recovered from 46% in 2021 to 48% in 2022, while driving growth of 4% in an overall flat market. By contrast, the Northern Ireland ports' share fell by 5%. It is also worth noting, as Mr. Carr alluded to, that Rosslare’s share of ro-ro over the same period grew from 6% to 9%.
While Brexit may not have had a material impact on volumes since 2019 it has had a significant impact on the international origin and destination of freight, as well as the modes of transport deployed. Volumes on direct European ro-ro services for 2022 increased by 64.4% on the equivalent period for 2019. Increases were most notable on routes to Zeebrugge, Rotterdam, Cherbourg, Santander and Emden. Correspondingly, the ro-ro volumes with UK ports declined by 17.8%. There was a modest increase in lo-lo traffic from EU routes. It went from 29% of mix in 2019 to 31% of mix in 2022. However, the main shift in mode came in the form of driver-unaccompanied ro-ro freight, which grew from 47% to 51% of our mix. Due to the way it operates, this places additional pressure on the port’s capacity as it requires the units to be stored on site until collected for distribution. This is unlike traditional ro-ro, which goes straight through the port. Additional land is required.
Perhaps the most significant impact of Brexit as it applies to Dublin Port is the impact on land usage on the port estate itself. In advance of Brexit, the State authorities established a number of facilities in the port to manage new inspection requirements arising from Brexit. This involved Dublin Port Company allocating 14.6 ha of land to the Office of Public Works for these purposes. In addition, Dublin Port Company invested approximately €30 million in facilities directly associated with Brexit requirements. Notwithstanding the fact no one knew exactly what would happen in the lead up to Brexit, and that the transition was handled without any material impact, at least within the port, it is our view it is now time to reassess land usage and processes to balance the requirement of State services with the pressing needs of Dublin Port for capacity and the terminal operators and hauliers for efficiency. To put the land usage issue into context, the 14.6 ha of land allocated for Brexit is equivalent to approximately 300,000 ro-ro units, or 19% of our current throughput.
On efficiency, we believe digitisation of customs, regulatory and transit records has a key role to play in the port to facilitate a much smoother and faster transition of freight. Such a system is in operation in the UK, where 106 ports that account for 85% of all unitised maritime trade operate on a system that handles all data transfers between operators and government agencies. Digitisation is very much at the early stages of investigation. However, it should be pursued as a means of maintaining our competitiveness.
This statement outlines the key dynamics that we believe have arisen during the Brexit transition for Dublin Port. That is not to understate the impact Brexit may have had on other stakeholders, including the hauliers, whom I believe the committee will hear from later. Dublin Port will continue to be impacted by global events. However, the port has shown remarkable resilience over many years and we are intent on ensuring we fulfil our obligations to the State in enabling the free movement of trade with the UK and our European partners.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Carr and Mr. O'Connell for those comprehensive statements. We will get straight into it. Senator Chambers is first up and will be followed up by Deputy Howlin.
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair and I thank our guests for their attendance. The updates on how the ports are doing were interesting. When the vote happened in 2016, and everything following that, there were many predictions things would go badly for us as a country and at our main ports. That never happened, because of the work done at Rosslare and Dublin to maintain some sort of continuity, look after the haulage sector and to ensure the country's shelves were kept full. The concern at the time was we would not have bread on the shelves. We have come through that tricky period. It is great to hear talk of growth, new routes and looking to new opportunities. It is a positive space to be in and I wanted to acknowledge that, especially in light of the Windsor Framework announced two days ago. It is great to see we are moving to the next chapter, or so we hope. It will always be an ongoing process but we must get past the worst of it.
I will start with Mr. Carr to discuss Rosslare. My colleague, Senator Malcolm Byrne, whom I know Mr. Carr is very familiar with, tabled a Commencement matter in the Seanad this morning on the M11 and the need to see completion there. Mr. Carr has mentioned the eagerness of Rosslare Europort to see road projects are completed, so I wanted to mention that. He also mentioned rail connectivity. We are awaiting the all-island rail review and the publication of that report, which we hope will happen in the next number of weeks. The Minister was waiting for an executive in Northern Ireland. We may or may not have that soon, but in any event we know to an extent what is coming in the report, as is often the case. I am based in County Mayo and we have a big focus on the western rail corridor because we want to eventually link Mayo, through Galway, to Foynes and over to Mr. Carr in Rosslare. That is the ambition and the vision we have for the western region. We have connectivity to Dublin Port and that is great, but we want to have a link to our second-largest port over on the east coast. It is important to us and I would love to hear Mr. Carr's views on that. We are not talking about this happening in the next five years, but somewhere down the line.
Turning to Mr. O'Connell, I have had the pleasure of visiting Dublin Port on a number of occasions in the past few years and it is an impressive operation. Seeing what goes on and what the company manages to do is quite impressive. When I was there three or four years ago, there was talk about the constraints of the site and the desire to grow the operations of the port. There was mention also of new routes and more connectivity. How is the company planning to expand operations with respect to new routes and businesses given the constraints entailed by the physical capacity of the site? What is the long-term plan for that? It is great to hear the company is looking at amending processes there in light of the way things have worked out in the past couple of years. There were some teething problems at the start with the extra checks required and working with the haulage industry.
Mr. O'Connell mentioned digitisation. One of the recommendations of the Seanad special committee on Brexit was that we focus on it because it would make things move quicker. Where is that at? Mr. Carr may have a view on that as well. How advanced is digitisation in terms of the import and export of goods and is there anything the witnesses need assistance with from the perspective of the Government?
Mr. Glenn Carr:
I thank the Senator. The other side of my role is responsibility for the delivery of the rail freight strategy for Irish Rail. We have undergone a detailed consultation with industry in particular and it wants to see a shift from road to rail as part of its carbon commitments. We are working with a project team, consultants and industry to implement the strategy. We launched the strategy on rail freight last year. A key part of that is connecting to sea ports, as well as to strategic hubs placed around the country that have a multi-modal offer, in that they can provide warehousing and access to rail and road. The heavy trunking will be done by rail for industry and into the ports. We are just a part of a supply chain. Often our exporters are going around the world. Now we are seeing some of the trailers are going on rail across Europe. Having spoken to some big multinationals, we are an outlier at the moment.
The rest of the supply chain goes by rail much of the way, but not when it comes to Ireland. It is important that we move on this. We have an ambitious strategy linking Shannon and Foynes. That is already under way. Work has commenced there. We are also engaging with the Port of Cork. Waterford is already rail connected. We want to connect Rosslare Europort. Dublin Port is rail connected. We want to create an arc that goes from Rosslare, Waterford, Cork, Shannon-Foynes, right up to the west. We know there is a cluster of industries there whereby if we put in the right facilities, will actively move to use them.
I was in Castlebar recently. We identified and are working on a design in Castlebar, where there are major multinationals that employ many people. Their performance is being measured not just on the basis of their output but also on that of their carbon footprint. These industries need to come up with alternative supply chain options instead of using road transport. We eagerly await the all-Ireland review ,but we are actively getting on with implementing our rail freight strategy. We hope to place an order shortly for a considerable amount of new rail fleet. We will need that new fleet.
We are currently engaging with industry in regard to strategic locations. The inland port hubs will be key. Traditionally, they have been around motorways, such as off the M50 at Blanchardstown. We have to build facilities that are connected to rail because the supply chain is simply going to shift over to rail. Where we can, we have to provide rail transport that is easily accessible, efficient and at a price that makes it attractive. We have started that journey with the connection of Shannon and Foynes. We will connect to Cork. Likewise, with the offshore wind facility that will be multimodal, our plan is to take a spur line into that site. That will be a lo-lo and ro-ro facility. We hope to see the Wexford-Waterford line established. It is already there, but it will be reopened and will potentially serve for freight and passenger rail transport. This is all very strong, but we need to do it now. There has never been a better chance and a better time to get on and do it as part of decarbonising the transport system.
In regard to digitalisation we have actually signed a contract and are currently in the process of implementing what we hope will be the smartest ro-ro port in Europe. We signed a contract just over nine months ago with a major IT global company that is developing track-and-trace vehicle recognition. Digitalisation brings many efficiencies. From our point of view, it is about linking with all the stakeholders in the port. It is also about using technology to get more throughput because there is a finite amount of space at the port. We are inefficient, not in a bad way, because of the lack of technology to date. We are inefficient in how quickly we do what I am referring to. A simple example would be that hauliers have to queue at the dedicated booth of the shipping company they are going with. Over the next 12 to 18 months, they will be able to go to any booth and check in because the system will recognise their number plates, which will be linked to their bookings. It will recognise that they are authorised, have the proper paperwork and are allowed to come into the port. It will then direct them to where they should leave their trailers or park their trucks. That information will be forwarded to our machinery, such as tugs, in order to allow our people more quickly to identify a unit and put it on a ship. The full checks and balances will happen there. It is a complete track-and-trace system. We are well advanced on that journey. We are engaging with the State agencies. We have allowed our system for the provision of data to be transferred from Customs and Revenue. Streamlining for the whole green lane and red lane can be more efficient. We are big believers in digitalisation. Happily the journey is under way. There is not a common system across the ferry operators. Each of them uses its own system. Our system will lead the way and we are getting a good deal of interest from other ports throughout Europe that are looking at the system. There is a risk with being the first to do it. There is also great opportunity with being the first.
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Carr.
Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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Yes I know, I met Mr. O'Connell's predecessor a couple of times.
Mr. Barry O'Connell:
In regard to the first question on the capacity of the port, we are constrained by the size of the site. We have 265 ha. We make good use of those 265 ha. We are probably the most efficient port in Europe on the basis of average throughput. However, there are plans for three significant infrastructural projects as part of our Dublin Port Masterplan 2040 framework. One of those is on the verge of being completed as is. That is the Alexandra Basin project, which will strengthen our quay walls and deepen berths in order to facilitate larger vessels. We will then launch our MP2 project, which will also provide additional capacity in terms of berths and on the land side. Last but not least, our third and final master project is about to go to planning. That will take in the region of another five or ten years, and will develop the south side of the port to allow for additional ro-ro and lo-lo facilities. When all that infrastructure is combined, we should be in a position where we could potentially double our capacity between now and 2040. Our efficiency, which is very good at the moment, is going to have to continue to improve. To some extent, it is down to digitisation. I will not repeat what Mr. Carr said in regard to the movement of traffic. We are also looking at that. However, it will also require a rethink of the entire supply chain. We can be very efficient in the port. Unless the supply chain is able and willing to transport products to and from the port on an almost 24-7 basis, however, those products will be stuck in the port. It is a function of the entire supply chain.
The beauty of Dublin Port Masterplan 2040 is that it is a clear guiding line for us in the context of what we need to develop. There is also a downside in that it gives the impression perhaps that we will not run into capacity issues until 2040. In reality, we have capacity pinch points now because our volumes continue to increase. We are carrying out major construction works within the confines of the port, so we need that capacity. Our capacity does not allow for 20% of our volume being allocated to State lands. These are creating pinch points for us now, so we need the construction to go as planned. We need to take time to stand back and look at the land allocated to dealing with developments resulting from Brexit. We also need to look at efficiency. The latter is another element of digitisation to which Mr. Carr alluded. I refer to the amalgamation of State services and those of the terminal operators. The processing of freight can happen significantly faster than is currently the case. We are at the very early stage of investigating that matter. It should be something that would get State services and ourselves together. The other interested parties will want to make sure that happens. Otherwise, we will find ourselves at a competitive disadvantage relative to our neighbours.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank the representatives of both ports for their comprehensive written submissions. With the permission of the Cathaoirleach, I beg some indulgence because I have a keen and long-term interest in the Rosslare Europort. I will address my questions to Mr. Carr. From a constituency perspective, Deputy Haughey may well veer his focus towards Dublin Port. I had the privilege of visiting Dublin Port in advance of Brexit. I was very impressed by what goes on there. There are a number of questions I would like to ask Mr. Carr.
Prior to Brexit, the committee looked at its likely impact. We argued cogently and clearly that there would be a need for additional direct services from the Republic of Ireland to continental Europe. That was denied by the Irish Maritime Development Office for a time, which stated that the existing companies could do what was necessary. Our view has certainly been vindicated. The extraordinary increase to the number of sailings from Rosslare Port - a total of 36 - to new destinations such as Dunkirk is testimony to that.
I have a couple of questions for Mr. Carr in respect of where we are now. On the UK traffic volumes being down 36%, as he has presented to the committee, is that simply a dislodging of old land bridge traffic or is there something else at play in respect of the consequences of Brexit that we need to be aware of and that we might be able to address?
My next question is on the development in the port. The temporary border inspection facility outside of the port was never a viable entity. The notion that customs checks were carried out by telling trucks to pull up the road after a while was never going to be acceptable in the longer term, but it was an emergency situation. It is now going to be encompassed by the funding provided by the European Union through the Brexit adjustment reserve fund. I am very concerned about the timing of that. It has not commenced yet. We had both the Commission and the President of the European Court of Auditors before this committee and they were very clear in telling us this has a timeline and the works should be or will be completed by the end of 2024. We have not started yet in Rosslare. Will Mr. Carr give the committee a very clear timeline on the completion of the works that are being funded by the Brexit adjustment reserve fund? These works are the perimeter fencing, the alternative customs inspection facilities, lighting, marshalling and the other bits of it. When will it commence and when does he expect all of that to be completed?
On other investment, with all due respect to Government announcements and so on, I have not heard that a cent of money has been allocated to Rosslare Europort other than the 100% European funding. With regard to the master plan, what moneys will be invested, and when will we know the colour of the moneys that will be invested, by Irish Rail directly and by the State in ensuring we have a viable port to facilitate offshore renewable energy? We have done a great deal of work on this at the British–Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and it is quite clear from visiting ports like Belfast and Liverpool that they are ready now. To my mind, we do not have a port that is available now to facilitate offshore wind and we are driving like mad to increase the supply of renewable energy into the system, particularly after the atrocious invasion of Ukraine.
Mr. Kenny rightly said Dublin is a tier 1 port. Rosslare, although it is the second busiest port in the country, is not a tier 1 port. I am not clear about one aspect of that and it is a follow-on from Senator Chambers’s question. Is the restoration of the rail link to Waterford a material issue in gaining the tier 1 qualification for Rosslare?
We were a bit disconcerted to see the headline in my local newspaper, theWexford People, this week, “Rosslare Europort risks squandering the ‘golden gift’ of a major Brexit boom”, which paraphrases something said by the president of the Irish Road Haulage Association, who will be giving evidence before the committee. I will put the same question to him later. I would like to give Mr. Carr the opportunity, if he would like to avail of it, to respond to that and to the detailed newspaper article about the number of port operatives who are leaving or resigning in protest at working conditions in the port. I would be obliged if Mr. Carr might address that issue.
Mr. Glenn Carr:
With regard to the first question on UK traffic volumes, some of that would have been land bridge traffic but, from engagement with much of the industrial sector, it has told us directly that it has also moved some of its supply chain out of the UK jurisdiction and into mainland Europe. Historically, there would have been a concentration of central distribution with the link from the UK. Industry would have been sourcing from its central distribution, perhaps in the UK. Since Brexit, much of that supply chain has moved directly into Europe. On the actual trade between Ireland and the volumes we are seeing in certain sectors, because of the requirements, in particular in respect of the food, agri-ingredient and pharmaceutical businesses, which are all just-in-time businesses, the risks of checks and to the supply chain have to be managed, and the mitigating risk to take that away is to source directly from Europe and to go directly on sailings.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that freight permanently lost as a result of that happening?
Mr. Glenn Carr:
Those companies have revisited their supply chain. I will give the Deputy an example in which I am involved. We run a business called Navigator Freight Agency where we provide car parts for many of the car brands here in Ireland. Unfortunately, that industry is wedded to the set-up where the Irish market is treated by the big brands as part of the UK. All of the car parts today still come in from the UK, but every morning, we do not know if that truck will clear until it gets through the customs system. Every morning there are garages waiting for delivery of their car parts, where we have transport operators waiting to see what will happen. We have a warehouse in Dublin and in Northern Ireland. The risk in that can be seen. There could be 1,100 different commodity codes on that one trailer alone. If there is one commodity code that is not quite right and has not been input correctly, and if that input happens during the night or behind the scenes, many additional resources and costs and much additional risk will be involved. I can clearly see why many industries would have taken that risk away and would have moved out of the UK. Unless that changes, and the only way that will change is if the UK re-enters the EU, it will remain that way.
Mr. Kenny touched on this earlier and we will await the good news of the protocol, but I also think there was disproportionate traffic using the Belfast route. We will now see more of an alignment as to what happens with the red lane and green lane in Dublin and Rosslare and what will now emerge with the protocol. That might bring some traffic back down.
There are potential opportunities to grow activity, especially into Rosslare. We have four sailings a day out of Rosslare but there are only two sailings back from each of the two ports. Again, one of the great successes for Rosslare has been the creation of frequency as well as capacity because that is what the market wants. If there are only two sailings coming back out of Fishguard and Pembroke, I miss the last sailing out of Fishguard and I am not on time to get the last sailing out of Pembroke, I will go to Holyhead and to Dublin to make my journey shorter. The ports, shipping lines etc. need to look at the core product on offer to find ways of improving it. We have seen for two years now a consistent trend in traffic that was previously coming into Rosslare from the UK, and we have seen a dramatic increase in European traffic. I believe that will remain the case for the foreseeable future.
With regard to development in the port, the Deputy is correct that the Brexit adjustment reserve fund is being used, particularly to fund the works the OPW will be undertaking. We await the final phases of those works but my understanding is the tender is to be completed by 10 March. It is a process we have been heavily engaged in with the OPW but is not a process we ourselves are running.
To give the Deputy a context, when we were originally looking at and delivering our master plan, the decision was made about the border inspection post having to come back inside the port. The opportunity then came to utilise the Brexit adjustment reserve fund, which was the right decision. We have worked very closely with the OPW in regard to the phasing of the work and how that will be achieved. The scale of the build would mean that, if we were just to say to the OPW to go ahead and build it, we would have to shut down a very sizeable part of the port, and that is just not operationally possible. We have agreed with the OPW, and it has signed off on this, that very detailed phases of work will take place and be completed over the next two to two and half years. Some of that will be frontloaded.
I have no doubt but that when the OPW completes the tender, it will come back to us with that final phase of work. Until the procurement process is completed, my expectation is that we will see shovels in the ground this summer and people getting on with the work. The project is being led by the OPW. There are big benefits for the port in going down that road. We could have got on with our master plan but that would have meant us digging up a lot of the work we would have been doing in order for the OPW to gain access, particularly for a lot of the heavy construction work it would have required for its facility. The OPW will dictate the timeline for utilising the adjustment fund.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The president of the Court of Auditors has told us that the money must be spent to be reclaimed by the end of next year. Maybe I am putting my former ministerial hat, as Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform back, on but I believe it would be very wasteful if we missed the timeline for the recoupment of moneys.
Mr. Glenn Carr:
Some of that is outside of the port's control. I understand, having talked to colleagues in other European ports who are accessing the fund, is that they are fairly much in the same boat. We must remember that we have just emerged from Covid in regard to the construction industry and the availability of materials, etc. There is a tightness in the market across Europe in all construction that we are seeing at the moment and I do not think that we will be unique if that timeline is adhered to in terms of spending that money because I think other ports in Europe are having the same problem.
On the wider issue, there is an element that once the OPW work is done or while we are doing it, we must synchronise work in place. For instance, in 2022 our capital and maintenance spend was €2.5 million and this year we plan to spend €23 million. Irish Rail has secured our funding. It is in place and has been signed off by our board. We will see substantial expenditure on our side that is aligned, because it is important that we all work in tandem with the OPW and its works. The OPW wanted one contractor on site, which from a safety and operational point of view makes perfect sense, and we are getting on with the elements that will not interfere with that. Once the heavy OPW work is completed we will finish things off from our side.
Let me explain the magnitude of our commitment. Our capital plan is €23 million in 2023. I have no doubt but that this funding will spill over into some part of 2024. The plan has been signed off by our port and is in place for that funding.
On the ORE, we have a second master plan. The initial plan involved circa €150 million. The ORE facility will cost in the region of €220 million. We have made an application under the Connecting Europe Facility, CEF, call down for this year for studies. The Deputy is right in what he said. Currently, as we speak today, no port in the Republic of Ireland has the required facility for the next generation of ORE. He is right that Belfast has facilities but I contend that Belfast is quickly filling out. Equally, ports like Belfast and Liverpool must upgrade their facilities because what they have dealt with before is not what will be dealt with going forward.
We are going through planning at the moment. We are well ahead and await our foreshore licence in May to complete our site investigations. We will lodge a planning application in late 2024. We hope to be through planning in mid-2025. That is really important because these are very tight timelines. Our ambition is to have the facility built by the end of 2026. Our engagement with all of the major players in the sector informs us that they would need something operational from 2027 onwards. While there is nothing there today, equally all of our offshore wind companies are going through a process where they are going to an auction and going through planning. I do not want to say too much as I want to show respect for the planning process but we hope to get through planning.
On funding, a number of months ago we appointed EY to advise us on the funding model for the project. We are talking to a number of institutions on investment. As we speak the policy is that ports are not directly invested in but I think that will become a lot clearer in the next few months in regard to ORE. We will present a detailed business case for ORE by the end of quarter 2 and that will be based on our detailed conversation with the market, funders and developers. Our research will tell us the typical type of revenue we can expect and the investment that is clearly required. If there is a gap, then we will have discussions on the gap because we cannot afford not to have a port with facilities. The reality is that Rosslare Europort will need to be the first port ready for phases 1 and 2 because the majority of those wind farms will be in the Irish and Celtic Seas and as Rosslare Europort will be within 60 to 100 nautical miles, it is the closest port for those facilities. Therefore, it is important that Rosslare is utilised because that feeds into the supply chain and the efficiency that goes with all of that during the ORE.
In terms of the tier 1 issue, I believe that tiers are being re-examined. At present, for Rosslare to achieve the status of tier 1, it would need a certain percentage of the national tonnage in the country. Rosslare is just a roll on-roll off port. While we would reach the tonnage in that sector, the reality is that if all of the tonnage with bulk was spread across ro-ro and lo-lo, then we would not come anywhere near the percentage. The qualification currently for tier 1 was based on a certain tonnage and we do not hit that at a national level so the situation needs to be changed.
Will we get to that with ORE? I believe we will with the significant increase in traffic that we have seen. Is tier 1 important? It is, because there are certain pots of funding in Europe to access where you must be on a particular trans-European transport network, TEN-T. I understand that a tier 1 port, although Mr. O'Connell or Mr. Sheary might correct me, there is an expectation at an EU level now that ports are rail connected in order to qualify for a tier 1 port. It is important that we understand that aspect going forward when we look at infrastructure in terms of the ports because, without doubt, across Europe the red-hot ticket at the moment is rail freight and the biggest significant investment that we are seeing across Europe is going into the rail network. Ports need to understand and accept that if they want to get access to that share, they will have to be connected and provide that type of service.
Finally, to respond to the query about the newspaper article this morning, obviously we have just seen it ourselves but I can say the following. First, in regard to staffing at Rosslare, over the last two years we have probably gone from 70 staff directly, and I mean just with ourselves, to over 105 people. Our labour turnover is less than 4% and our average length of service is over 21 years. To me, if you are not a good employer then you do not get those types of key performance indicators. If the working environment is not good then there would be a high turnover in staff. We have also never had such a buoyant labour market so people have great choice. I think that there are a lot of companies that would be very envious of having a turnover of 4%. That is not to say that things are always perfect because they are not in any shape or form. We have been extremely busy and now operate 24-7. As Mr. O'Connell has said, we must operate 24-7. Also, we must be fit and very efficient in all of our costs because we compete against other ports in Ireland for business. We owe it to our shareholder to be a good employer but we must also ensure that we always deliver best value for money. We have agreed a process in terms of our industrial relations going forward. That has now been concluded and we will offer further positions for people. I suggest that our terms and conditions are at the higher end of what is typically found both the industry and wider society.
I understand the challenges faced by the members of the Irish Road Haulage Association. As alluded to earlier, a solution will be found when everyone works together. We have seen cumulatively a 53% increase in traffic at the port. We must not lose sight of the fact that while the port has been greatly successful, the situation must be managed and at times there are pinch points. It is somewhat exaggerated that there were queues down the hill as I think that happened on only two occasions, which were caused by different issues and late sailings.
We manage that, however, and we get on with it. This weekend was one of our busiest in the port and I do not think many things happened. Regarding services, we achieve a 96% turnaround approximately of ships that come in according to their service level agreement, SLA, with us. If there were concerns around our efficiency, I am not sure we would achieve a 96% turnaround. Of the nearly 370,000 vehicles that have gone through the port in the past two years, less than 1% of damage claims have happened in Rosslare Europort, as far as I am aware. We are not perfect, by any means, but we do a very good job down there and this is great credit to our people.
We have seen great growth in the port. This has not just been within Rosslare Europort itself but also in State agencies and the shipping lines. We are seeing a vibrant community emerge. The master plan, and the new port access road, is important in respect of taking these trucks away from the village. This is all in place. Would I like this to happen faster? I would. Equally, though, I want to ensure we do this right, safely and that in a few years I am not being asked different questions about why we did something and spent money in a rush, when we could have taken our time and ensured we did these things right.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Carr. The 53% increase in traffic is an extraordinary figure. I presume Deputy Howlin has asked so many questions that there are no more left.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have a few more but I will hold off.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Ó Murchú.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will find a supplementary to Deputy Howlin's questions and this is exactly where I am going.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We have 19 minutes left, so I ask everyone to be conscious of this.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will concentrate on offshore wind. We were all shocked when we discovered that none of our ports were, for want of a better term, fit for purpose. Mention was made of the plan for offshore renewable energy, ORE, and getting us where we need to be with that. We, and many others, have interacted with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan. Ultimately, what is always mentioned is that ports are private entities, etc. We do know, though, that there has been a loosening in state aid rules. Equally we have adhered to these state aid rules more here than, possibly, the French and the Germans have done.
Arguments can be made, then, regarding pushing this. I would like to get a general timeline from the witnesses regarding the plans and the possible hold-ups. Even in general terms, I would like to know what we are talking about concerning the money it may not be possible to get from private sources. On some level, this must be a major project for the State. Everybody, including the Government and the Opposition, talk about future possibilities and that we could be an offshore wind and renewable energy superpower to such an extent that we could change the dynamics of the energy market across Europe and globally. This is not going to happen if we cannot get out of port. How soon and to what extent can progress be made in this context and what has the interaction been with the State? The answers we have received from the Minister and others have not been exactly stellar in putting our minds at ease.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Ó Murchú. I call Mr. O'Connell to respond first.
Mr. Barry O'Connell:
It could be a quick answer before I abdicate and hand over to Mr. Carr again. Our involvement in offshore wind energy is limited simply because we do not have the facilities to allow for infrastructure development at the same scale as other ports are considering. We are facilitating the onshoring of such power through cabling, facilities, substations, etc. We do not, though, have any land available where we are commissioning the equipment for development.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is a no-go. It is just not big enough.
Mr. Glenn Carr:
We have been heavily involved in this context over the past 18 months. I look to industry in this regard, which will be the customer for ORE. It is just like Brexit, where industry, our importers and exporters, provided our customers. In the same way, the question now is what we need to do to support them such as getting more shipping lines in and getting this work going. We have spoken in-depth with representatives of the ORE industry. At this point, what I am sure of is that the facilities we are building in Rosslare Europort tick nearly all the boxes for what the industry wants. We must ensure we build a world-class facility that is fit for purpose, and not just for now but for the future. We have had companies in that sector engage with us and our design team concerning designing this facility. It is a big project. We must deepen the port. We must create additional berthing. Additionally, we must reclaim and create additional land. The build itself is not very complicated and will not take very long. We expect it to take approximately 18 months. As I said, we have a detailed plan that is on target to deliver our facility by the end of 2026. We must-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This is a future-proofed plan for a facility that will be fit for purpose.
Mr. Glenn Carr:
Yes, this is for the fixed-bottom approach. There is a lot of debate about floating turbines, but it is not possible to design something to handle floating equipment at the moment because the industry is so diverse in what it believes is needed. For the fixed-bottom method, in the Irish and Celtic seas, we know we have the right depth. This is a requirement. Out of the 7 GW being sought, and depending on how the projects are aligned, our facility would probably create 2.5 GW of the required turbines. We are talking about a lot of land being needed when these turbine blades are at least 120 m in length. These are big machines and they require land for construction. From our point of view, therefore, I am quite happy that we have the right product. Having said that, however, we must get through the planning process and get our foreshore licence in May.
There is industry growth worldwide in this area now. For example, regarding doing site surveys and booking barges to do this, these craft are in demand throughout Europe. This is the case to the extent that it is necessary to provide assurances to the owners that a foreshore licence has been secured and that these barges will be used in three-week windows. All this must be booked in advance. Irish Rail and our board have been greatly supportive in pushing us to take on risk. We must do so now, but it is managed risk. We are fully committed to taking our project up to the stage of applying for full planning permission. It will probably cost us €10 million to just go through this planning process, but we need to develop this project by the end of 2026.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That has been acquired by now.
Mr. Glenn Carr:
Yes, we have that. On the funding side of things, another debate is under way. There has certainly been a great deal of interest from the various institutions on these projects. We are engaged now in these conversations. As I said, we will have a business case completed by the second quarter of 2023. I believe this will be the first business case that has examined the opportunity and the revenue potential in this regard. It is a bit early to say whether there will be a gap here. If there is no gap in funding, and we can raise all the money on the commercial market, there will be no problem.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How long has the company given itself to do this?
Mr. Glenn Carr:
We intend to have this completed by the end of the second quarter of this year. If there is a gap in funding, one option is the sustainable energy fund, SEF, and we have made our application in that regard. Having said that, to qualify for this funding from the SEF, which is the 30% for construction, we must have full planning permission for the project. The project must be very mature. We have not got through the planning permission process yet. The risk, therefore, with the SEF is that by the time we have waited for that funding, if such funding is needed, we would not be able to access it.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The checklist will not be completed.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Has the company spoken to the Department or anyone else in this regard?
Mr. Glenn Carr:
Yes, absolutely. In fairness to the Department, it fully understands the landscape of our project. It is fully supportive. Equally, though, if I was in the Department, I would wait to see the detailed business case as well. It is important too that people do not react too quickly. Negotiations are under way, so we have to let the results of this process materialise. Our commitment, however, is to deliver the project by 2026. We are committed to doing this and to raising the required money where we can. This is, however, also a national project.
Mr. Glenn Carr:
There are greater benefits to be derived for wider society here. How we look at the business case will be important. This is because port infrastructure, traditionally, has been expensive and it is viewed over a long time. We are talking about constructing an asset that will be in place for the next 50 years. How we look at this project and how we fund it, therefore, will have to be done with this backdrop in mind.
The other positive thing for our facility is that it has a dual purpose. With the ORE, we will see a lot of activity in the Irish and Celtic seas in the initial years.
There will be the heavy lifting, the big construction phases and many jobs created during this phase and then there is operations and maintenance, which requires significantly fewer facilities. However, we will have built a facility that will be easily transferable to lift-on lift-off and roll-on roll-off. As was alluded to, if we look at this from a port national capacity perspective, Rosslare Europort will be primed to easily transfer 300,000 to 400,000 units out of Dublin Port which will be under considerable pressure and may not be able to do anything more at that point. The investment in Rosslare is not just for offshore renewable energy. It is critically important for ORE but it is also a very good investment in the longer term port capacity for the country and our supply chain.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is future-proofing across the board.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Carr is happy enough. There has been significant change in planning laws, with the establishment of the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, the framework and all the rest of it.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy asking Mr. Carr if he is happy enough, or is he telling him he is?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, I am asking whether Mr. Carr believes the sector is in the right place and if he is reasonably happy. I imagine he would much prefer that the planning process was faster and better, but is he happy in general terms?
Mr. Glenn Carr:
We need our foreshore licence in May. The test of that will be whether we get it in May. If we do not get it in May, our project will come under pressure from a timeline point of view. Having said that, if we do not have our licence in May, there is likely to be a delay for all projects. I do not expect that to occur, however. We have had very good engagement with all of the stakeholders and agencies. Everybody is collectively working in the one direction. It is taking a little time to get there but I expect to see rapid growth and very strong movement. Last week, we signed a memorandum of understanding with the ESB. We have, therefore, two State agencies coming together. The ESB has recognised that if we can build a facility, it will use it and, equally, it has a number of projects in the Irish and Celtic seas it hopes will get through planning. That is all positive.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Of course it is. We need to make sure we have the grid infrastructure in place.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Carr's first worry is the foreshore licence and then ensuring the company can avail of it.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am being moved on, which is unfortunate for everybody involved.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.
Seán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I am interested to see all the statistics on trade flows following Brexit. We have got statistics from the economic committee of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, BIPA, as well as the Seanad Special Select Committee on the Withdrawal of the UK from the EU. Interestingly, Mr. O'Connell indicated that Covid-19 has been the biggest determination of trade within the port and so on. I will ask about trade flows and the Windsor Framework, which has been launched. I guess it is too early to assess how that might impact on trade flows or will the ports consider that issue? That question is directed at both witnesses.
On land usage at Dublin Port, from a constituency point of view, I represent Dublin Bay North, where the proposed infill of 52 acres and the reclamation of land has been an issue of major concern to my constituents going back to the early 1980s. The constituencies adjacent to Dublin Port keep an eye on what the port is doing. It is very important for the economic life of the city and the country. I note the projects to be rolled out in the Dublin Port 2040 master plan. What does Mr. O'Connell have to say about the 14.6 ha of land which was handed over to the Office of Public Works? This needs to be reassessed. What is the land being used for? Is it being fully utilised by the State? What efforts is Dublin Port making to put its case for getting some of that land back?
Is Mr. O'Connell satisfied that the road infrastructure at Dublin Port is satisfactory? I am thinking of the Dublin Port tunnel, in particular. Is he satisfied the tunnel is operating well? Are there capacity issues and does more need to be done with the road infrastructure for Dublin Port?
Mr. Barry O'Connell:
It is very early days for the Windsor agreement, but I have taken the opportunity to speak to my counterpart in Belfast and to some of the terminal operators on this side of the water and across the way. The consensus seems to be that the trade has found a natural settling place over the past two years. Operators do not believe it will have a material impact on further influencing ships and volume relative to where we are at present. That is the short answer. I guess the answer has to be short because the detail has yet to emerge with regard to how the agreement could impact in another way.
With regard to land infill, further reclamation of land is not intended. We may infill some of our existing berths but we will not extend beyond our current footprint. We have stated that in the latest master plan. We will be developing within the 265 ha we have. We have been engaging with the State's services and the OPW, individually, on the 14.6 ha to see what solutions we could come up with. They are getting very little usage. That is the issue. When they were set up originally, of course, nobody knew what would happen. In hindsight, we probably over-specified it but hindsight is a 20-20 vision. It worked and everybody was thankful for that but there is an opportunity to relocate some of those services. We have the State warehouse, which is one part of our property. We also have an inland port of 44 ha that could be relocated to an even larger facility outside the port. The others could be streamlined within one building where all the services could network and perform the checks required.
We are dealing with the various State services individually, which is difficult because we have to get agreement and, to be honest, everybody is mindful of their own space. We are trying to move this along in such a way that we can free up that land, which would add approximately 20% to our capacity. It would be very important right now because we have existing pinch points.
We are continually working on the road infrastructure. We are happy with the way Dublin Port tunnel is working. We have also shared our master plan with the relevant authorities and they are confident they can handle the capacity increases that will arise as a result of the increase in volume. Within the port, we are continually working on upgrading the quality of our roads because some of them are badly in need of repair and changing layouts to make them more efficient for truck movements and flows.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank members and the witnesses for the presentation. I will let Mr. Kenny off the hook today. When he appeared at a committee previously - it must have been nearly 20 years ago - I asked him about trains to Donegal. I did not go home from that meeting feeling too bad about the issue. Are we in a different place today from where we were 20 years ago when it comes to rail? Mr. Carr answered that question to some extent in pointing out there is nearly a requirement on ports to have some sort of rail freight.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I will put it on social media. We will play Mr. Kenny's clip from 20 years ago and then play his response today.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Maybe it was ten years ago.
Mr. Barry Kenny:
It may seem like 20 years ago given how grey I have become. The fact is we are in a completely different space now with regard to the support there is for the role of rail in passenger and freight. The all-island rail review is being developed in that context. We have a very clear strategic framework for how rail will develop on the island and we look forward to its publication. We have never been in a better space with regard to increasing the role of the existing rail network and the potential for expansion.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Kenny, Mr. Carr, Mr. Sheary and Mr. O'Connell for their comprehensive presentations and answers. We appreciate their attendance.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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In this session we will continue our discussion of the impact Brexit has had on Ireland's trade and connectivity with the EU. Ar son an choiste arís, on behalf of the committee cuirim fáite chuig Mr. Eugene Drennan agus a chomhghleacaí, Mr. John Nolan. Mr. Drennan is the uachtarán of the Irish Road Haulage Association, a position he has held since 2020.
I apologise to members in advance. I have to read out another note on privilege. Before we begin, all witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a statement is potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Before I call on Mr. Drennan to make his opening statement, I will explain that we had a presentation from representatives of Rosslare and Dublin ports prior to this session. Mr. Drennan met them on the way out. Two figures from that session stood out to me, namely, a 26% reduction in trade to the UK and the extraordinary figure of an overall 53% increase in traffic at Rosslare Europort since Brexit. That is completely relevant to the work the Irish Road Haulage Association is involved in. I know Mr. Drennan has a comprehensive presentation.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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We have read your script and there is a lot of information in it. We will put it on the public record so it would probably be good to have more engagement. Mr. Drennan can open and dip in and out of his speech.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
We are very happy to be here. We thank the committee for the invitation. I know many of the faces at the committee from other lobbying engagements and delegations and trying to get different things done over the years. I am a long time at this. At the outset, we in the Irish Road Haulage Association welcome the new look and easements that have been given to the Northern Ireland protocol and the great work that has been done on it. As built into my speech, it is necessary for all commentators, especially the elected ones and the State to separate the political from the commercial. In our statement we will focus more on the commercial impact of the protocol and what we seek in order to move forward.
I am the president of the Irish Road Haulage Association. Mr. John Nolan is a long-serving member of the management team and is the secretary of the association. The introduction of Brexit has faded to a degree for the public but it is still part of our lives all day every day and has caused us much grief. Covid-19 and Brexit disrupted freight and the movement of goods. The changes brought about by Brexit remain significant and enduring. Licensed hauliers are to the fore in dealing with the outcome and consequences. We are the people who have to take longer routes to the Continent, queue at the checkpoints, produce the declarations, endure extra expense in administration and deal with the various side effects of Brexit and with increased costs in the main thrust of bringing freight to and from Ireland. To put it in perspective, we have endured delays of up to four days. Hauliers and drivers have experienced disruptions.
This is due to the many checks imposed by the different agencies who do not have an integrated, efficient approval system. We have the possibility of being delayed by these agencies. This delay is then multiplied by two for the UK side if a haulier is travelling to or through the UK. These impacts are coming at a time of unprecedented challenge for our members, with a mix of driver shortages, hugely inflated operating costs, extremely stiff competition and the regulatory regime which seems to target the compliant rather than the non-compliant.
A strong, competitive, dynamic and versatile indigenous national road transport fleet is imperative for Ireland as it is for any island because of the nature of islands. As an island state, Ireland requires a reliable national haulage fleet to keep the wheels of commerce moving. The disruption inflicted by the pandemic and Brexit have emphasised just how important a function Irish Road Haulage Association, IRHA, members play in the efficient and timely delivery of goods throughout Ireland and to our major trading partners Any interference in the efficiency of our haulage sector will lead to shortages in the availability of basic goods, damage to the interests of trade and industry and significant interruption to our international mercantile trade.
I will detail some of the biggest changes Brexit has brought about for our sector. In many senses, the changes that Brexit has brought have been revolutionary for our sector, primarily as a consequence of the changes in direct connectivity between Ireland and continental Europe. For instance, before Brexit there were four operators between Ireland and continental Europe, offering 17 sailings per week. Post Brexit, there are in excess of six operators offering more than 70 sailings per week. This accommodates more than 180,000 roll-on and roll-off journeys that previously used the UK land bridge and are now a direct ferry journey to and from continental Europe. This is certainly well in excess of the six additional sailings suggested as being sufficient by a body of the State, the Irish Maritime Development Office, which had statistics but these were flawed.
With direct ferries to the Continent now the norm rather than the use of the UK land bridge, there are a number of significant impacts for hauliers. The cost of getting to the Continent is higher, with an average cost increase of more than €300 per journey. That average cost takes account of the cost of diesel and the cost of going through the UK. The driver shortage is exacerbated by the fact that drivers are now at sea for between 18 and 48 hours a week. This has changed the pattern of driver hours to 36 hours, plus sailing, and 20 hours to 35 hours driving in the totality of hours drivers are allowed to work or to drive. Some 60% of loads are now travelling to the Continent unaccompanied to reduce costs and to use drivers and vehicles more effectively. This has increased the need for additional trailers, given the amount of time the trailers are at sea. There are also significant restrictions for drivers due to cabotage limitations, tachograph restrictions and mandatory closures of many EU countries' roads to HGVs during the weekend or part of the weekend. The absence of capacity to backfill empty trailers, which has become more relevant in the UK recently, places significant additional costs on hauliers which need to be met.
Brexit has introduced lasting cost, logistical and operational challenges for licensed hauliers. A question worth asking at this point is whether Ireland was well prepared for Brexit. At this juncture, are there measures we can take to improve connectivity between Ireland, Britain and Europe? This is very important in light of the events of recent days. The Brexit stakeholder consultative committee did some great work in preparing our ports for the impact of Brexit. However, there are lessons to be learned. We need further integration and upgrading of systems across Departments and Government agencies to reduce the administrative workload on the road haulage sector and produce better efficiencies.
Regarding delays at the ports, we need the Departments and agencies to review the processes to alleviate delays. For example, communications to drivers needs to be terminal specific. We also need to see checks that are risk-based rather than reactive and we need to see the State use robust technology to reduce delays and red tape and improve connectivity. Specifically, we would like to see the use of any IT arrangements governing goods travelling between the ports in Northern Ireland and Britain applying to the ports in the Republic of Ireland.
There are a number of measures and initiatives that would assist connectivity and trade if embraced by the Irish and EU customs. The pre-Brexit trans-European transport network, TEN-T, route was the UK land bridge. The TEN-T comprises the longer road corridors of Europe, part of which is the Ghyvelde corridor area in northern France. This corridor needs to be extended from Calais to Dunkirk and Cherbourg, where the direct ferries arrive from Ireland. As a result, it could include all of Ireland's 1,000 km of motorway, along with Dublin and Rosslare. That is the totality of TEN-T.
The impact of EU-UK negotiations on freight movements across the Irish Sea will need to be kept under review to ensure obligations and requirements do not end up being imposed on licensed hauliers arriving at ports in the Republic of Ireland which are not present for hauliers arriving in Northern Ireland and intending to bring their goods south of the Border. We are aware that some significant distribution chains in the Republic of Ireland were being serviced from Northern Ireland ports because of the absence of checks or more simplified checks at these ports heretofore.
Considering the importance of Britain for Ireland from a trade supply chain and road transport perspective, we also believe a permanent public-private body should be created at the Irish level to monitor the situation, send early warning signals and make recommendations to both the Irish Government and the specialised committee on road transport created under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. As the most representative industry organisation, the Irish Road Haulage Association would be interested in being part of such a body. In addition, it is of strategic importance that Ireland is represented permanently on the specialised committee on road transport under the co-operation agreement to increase efficiency of the Irish input. The Irish Road Haulage Association could also be granted an observer status as we are one of the main bodies representing the industry.
To address ongoing challenges posed by Brexit, the Government should review the existing checks imposed by the relevant authorities at Irish ports to determine if a different approach can be implemented, which would reduce daily red tape and costs. This has never been more significant than in the light of this week's news. If the State facilities at ports are not needed, then the land should be handed back to the port so that it can be used for the transit storage of goods, for parking for hauliers and serviced as waiting areas to get to different parts of the port. From what I have just said, I am supportive of what the management of Dublin Port said previously, if not on all points, then certainly on getting the land back if it is not needed. We need to look at measures to re-establish the level and extent of connectivity between Ireland and Great Britain. A new seamless approach to transiting through Britain needs to be implemented instead of the reduced services and increased delays that exist at present. This is particularly important for fresh food and other fresh goods There also needs to be a review of the IT platforms being used by the Irish statutory authorities to increase dependability, reduce delays and ensure reliability. We also need to maximise the use of IT to provide proper risk-based approaches to checks and inspections. The recent agreement between the EU and the UK on sharing information should be extended here. We should adopt a consistent approach to addressing the challenges posed by the Border with Northern Ireland. Users of ports in the Republic of Ireland should be in a position of equivalence with licensed hauliers arriving into northern ports with goods destined for the Republic of Ireland.
In summary, the Irish Road Haulage Association believes Brexit has had a significant impact on connectivity between Ireland, Britain and the EU.
We can and should do more to reduce and mitigate these impacts, and we hope this committee will seek to ensure the State authorities remain active to ensure the negative consequences of Brexit on the transport of goods between Ireland and the EU are minimised to the greatest extent possible.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our witnesses for coming today. Mr. Drennan stated that the regulatory regime targets the compliant rather than the non-compliant. I am interested to hear more about what could be done to target the non-compliant and relieve the pressures on compliant businesses.
Mr. Drennan mentioned the huge increase in the number of direct sailings between Ireland and mainland Europe and stated it has led to a €300 increase in costs per journey. Does he see the number of direct sailings changing any time soon? The market responded to demand at the time. Does he see it changing as the challenges of Brexit are ironed out? Does he see a return to using the land bridge in the future and a reduction in the number of direct sailings?
I am always amazed to hear various industries talk about the shortage of employees and the challenges they have in getting workers. At the same time, we have a serious challenge with economic migrants coming into the country. Many people coming from particular countries would dearly love an opportunity to work. That is why they come to Ireland. Some may say that some of them are circumventing the rules by presenting as an asylum seeker for six months in the knowledge that they will be able to work after that. Are there any countries we could have visa arrangements with to help Mr. Drennan's industry overcome the shortage of workers, reduce the number of people seeking asylum or other forms of international protection and reduce the pressure on the State?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
I am glad to see our years of lobbying the Deputy when he was working in the area of transport have not gone astray. It is nice to see Senator McDowell again. I will not tell the State secret of where we drank pints together.
Regarding pressures on compliant rather than non-compliant businesses, there is definitely a wish in the protocol, as reported in the The Irish Timesyesterday by Simon Carswell, who is well-respected, that under the new agreement, the new EU-UK data sharing arrangements will use commercial data on trade flows rather than the international customs process. In Ireland we are married to the customs union code. We cannot vary from it. There is no flexibility. It is never taken into account that people have a record of compliance. However, the concept of a trusted trader is extended in the protocol. Ease of movement is built into it but we do not have that here. Revenue chases down businesses to various degrees. We keep our money in a trader account number, TAN, account. Should we owe money on some goods coming through and should our TAN account not be topped up or be short by as little as €5 or 5 cent, we are not allowed to move. Mr. Nolan had five trailers held up in the port one weekend day since Christmas. He had to bounce five trucks and bounce his driver without a trailer to Wexford and take him back on Monday. The total amount due was less than €200 and on one trailer it was less than €5. There was no trust. A well-respected, licensed, tax-compliant haulier could not be trusted to move. That is what we mean.
On the change of market, the difference in cost and whether I see it changing, I do not in the immediate future. However, the trends will change for the southern ports, especially the Wexford ports, in how we do business with the UK because of the easement in the North. Those routes are already challenged by a reduction in the use of freight, especially in the low season in the winter and by the increase in direct ferries sailing from Rosslare. There is a challenge there already, and anything that changes that may result in the loss of one of those routes because of numbers. As alluded to by the previous presentation to the committee, which I picked up, evidence of or statistics on where freight flows have come to and where they have renewed and returned to have been published in recent weeks. That code statistic is slightly flawed in that it is being compared with the past two years. It was all skew-ways anyway. It should have been compared with our higher usage before that. Do I see movement on it? Not unduly immediately except on the English routes affected by Brexit. However, we need all routes. We have now developed the direct routes but we also need to keep our traditional routes to the UK open, as we are an island, because it gives us much more connectivity. It is far better for trade and for tourism. If we can keep our other routes open and an easement of the old land bridge going through the UK, we would have a little competition that would help to stymie the €300 increase or hold it at bay. It is expensive in comparison with other routes around Europe and with the price we paid previously. It gets passed on to our producers and manufacturers.
On the shortage of drivers and the economic migrants, the Irish licensing system and the agreements between countries are the problem. To try to get a test and bring drivers into employment and experience has been very slow. For migrants who are already here, if they are able to work and ready and able to get a licence, they would certainly be employable, even if only at the lighter end of the commercial business such as vans and parcel delivery, to start in safety. The work is there. The problem is the delays in getting tests. The criteria for getting a licence have been difficult enough, but in May, new criteria are coming from Europe. They will be imposed on Ireland. Someone who has a licence for lighter vehicles and comes in for a commercial test will be able to move directly to bigger freight if they are suitable and have the training. They will not have to go step by step through all the grades. That should lead to some easement.
Also on the migrant issue, specifically with respect to Ukrainians, in early 2019 I started to write about the possibility these people would come. A governmental exchange of criteria would be needed to be able to accept the quality of driver training in one of these other countries. The Road Safety Authority, RSA, would have to approve the criteria, RSA representatives would then have to visit that regime and recommend it, and then the RSA would want them to sit a test when they would come and for them to go through the regulatory systems here. The big problem that was coming, and it was coming before the war, and we wrote to them and alerted them, was that there was no Government for ours to exchange with. It was not possible.
Regarding people from other countries coming here as economic migrants either by circuitous routes or even with a visa, we put forward a proposal recently that we could recruit some who have a driving background or who would be interested in coming with a visa, get them to do an English language course, and they would be allowed to work 25 hours a week as part of the criteria, and in the meantime they could go through the licensing stages in the education and training boards, ETBs while they were here. We would know who we would have, what we would have, communicate with them in English and see their value. These students would either pay to come here or would come by arrangement. That would ensure the ETBs would have a body of people to keep the courses alive with enough places left for whoever needed to be trained here. It would give certainty in numbers doing the courses and give us a chance to see who they were and if they were suitable.
Then, they can come through the proper channels of coming here under an employment visa. There has been slow take-up on that and we have not progressed that very well.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any particular countries Mr. Drennan has in mind for that proposal?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Yes, primarily those where drivers might have driven on the left before, those where there is a reasonable level of English and those who want to come here. Primarily, the people who want come here are from Argentina because of some old connectivity and some of our own coming home. Deputy Harkin is very good at history and she will tell you all about the flight of the earls. There is also the Philippines, because they will bring family members who would be very suitable to help the State in other ways. There are the EU trade agreement countries, around Ukraine and Russia, such as Moldova and Ukraine itself. I am forgetting one of them. There is of course India, which has good English speaking and they drive on the left. The progress on that is very slow. The progress of making the connectivity with either the other countries or the progress of seeing whether the ETBs can take in people who wish to apply and who come to be educated in English, and whether we can progress that. We badly need movement - that is for sure. The driver shortage is very relevant. Everybody is screaming for it and I know of two or three drivers. In some sectors, it is getting close to a failure to get the work done, such as in the areas of milk collection or seasonality like that in which you get a big flux. This is a driver's market, and in fairness, many Irish drivers do not want to on ferries and they do not want to be sailing for 48 hours per week. It eventually gets very tiring. There is not a lot of help to the employment regime. We have suggestions around that for help from the French. I can go into that now or later in the meeting.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Drennan and Mr. Nolan, both of whom are true experts in the issues we want to address. I want to touch briefly on three areas. Mr. Nolan may feel free to interject as well as Mr. Drennan.
My first question is on Mr. Drennan's comments on the Windsor Framework, which we are all grappling with. I was in Brussels yesterday. Mr. Drennan makes a very relevant point, which is to separate the political from the commercial. In truth, we are so fixated on getting a political solution and on getting institutions in Northern Ireland up and running that we have been willing to be tolerant of commercial impacts on us. I do not think the full impacts have been fully teased out yet. This includes the Stormont break, on which I repeated asked questions yesterday as to whether there was a separation of rules or a disapplication of trade rules in Northern Ireland. What are the implications of that for the Single Market and for the Republic of Ireland, which has an open border to a market that was not applying Single Market rules? I think the expectation is that we will put this in, in the hope it will never be used but that is always dangerous.
My particular questions are on the post-Brexit situation. Some of the evidence we got from the work we did on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, BIPA, from the hauliers on the UK side was that there was a significant dislodging of southern corridor and central corridor freight to the northern routes if the goods were destined for Northern Ireland. Goods, for example, from the south of England that would normally take the Rosslare ferry or even the Dublin ferries and then move north into Northern Ireland are now taking a much longer route. This is much less fuel efficient and much less environmentally efficient. Does Mr. Drennan think that is a permanent feature or will it now change under the new accords?
My second question will touch on the driver shortage issue. I do not think we should fixate on solving an employment issue with foreign labour as our preferred option or for that image to go out. I would be interested for a comment and Mr. Drennan might not have time to do it now but is he saying there are ways he could make it more attractive for Irish workers to be involved in driving in the haulage business in respect of terms and conditions? Does he have any propositions or proposals in that regard? As far as is practicable, we should be providing employment for Irish citizens who want to be involved in work in Ireland.
Mr. Drennan spoke of the reduction of sailings. A point made by the previous presentation we had was the lack of facility for hauliers because Rosslare has four UK sailings per day, but to two separate ports. This means there are only two sailing from Fishguard and two sailings from Pembroke. If you miss one, you might have to go to a different port. Is there an argument - and it is not a matter for us but I would be interested in hearing about it - to have one southern port, either Fishguard or Pembroke, and for the other to maybe concentrate on something else? Would that make that southern corridor route more efficient from a haulage perspective?
My final question is about something I saw this morning because I am an assiduous reader of my local paper. I saw that Mr. Drennan has made the front page of my local paper this morning regarding comments he made in relation to Rosslare Europort. The headline on the local paper was that Rosslare Europort risks squandering Brexit golden gift.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Mr. Drennan is not only extensively quoted on the front page, but on page 9 as well.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No, Mr. Drennan is fully clad. We are all conscious of newspaper headlines. I put that to Glenn Carr, who set out the timelines for the investments, as well as the current real difficulties even with getting quotes for investment, because of the volatility of materials in the post-Covid-19 world. I am interested in hearing Mr. Drennan's perspective on that headline. Maybe he did not expect a headline in the local paper when he made that comment.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
No, I did not. In response to Deputy Howlin's question on the easement in Northern Ireland, as well as the separation of the political and the commercial, I just hope this State has plan B. That is what I will say on that. The easements we have seen include the extension of the trusted trader system, simpler requirements for process, super-reduced data, solutions for the movement of freight of all types of parcels that will run freely, UK standards, a single general certificate only over one load and identity checks eventually being reduced to 5% or less. Of course this will have implications. Mr. Nolan is the expert and he will come in here on that. He always speaking about how loads from middle England, as well as from south and east of it, are flooding through Northern Ireland. The settling of the statistics recently, which I just quoted to the Deputy are from the last two years. Before that, however, the shift from Dublin has happened and there is nothing in this that will bring it back. It will shift further.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that regarding Stranraer and Belfast Harbour?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
It is a matter of time. The time of the shipping will have an impact on how you come up the road, as will the distance, the length of time at sea, the connectivity of the tachograph and the hours you can do it in. It is mainly Belfast that has the throughput of shipping and the port. To answer that fully, I will let Mr. Nolan come in on movement of loads, because he is the big trader in the UK.
Mr. John Nolan:
Mr. Drennan references a plan B. What I have always said with regards a plan B is that there needs to be an agreement between the Irish and the British with regard to the freight of sanitary goods. Basically, the veterinary people on either side need to agree on a list of products where the checks can be minimised from where they are at the moment. There are a lot of products that are common to Northern Ireland and southern Ireland that stay on the island of Ireland. They are of no risk to the Common Market or common trade area, yet, the inspections that are required to bring them into the Republic of Ireland will now be severe when compared with bringing the same goods into Northern Ireland. Something needs to be done about that. This is why I say the Republic of Ireland should get the same easements Northern Ireland gets on some veterinary goods. This will be to protect the common trade area, as well as to make the goods flow into southern Ireland as easily as they can now flow into Northern Ireland.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
There are lots of other goods and the cheap and cheerful have to come as well. We must be relevant here - mainly on the outbound but, to a degree, the cheap and cheerful go out with the loads. Cheap and cheerful means the volume products such as concrete, wood and timber for Coillte. All of these products do not have big margins. There is a big market for those goods but we need to hang on to that competitiveness. If those vehicles travel outward, it is very difficult to get them back in. We are experiencing big difficulties in getting the return load due to the volume of trade lost, the tipping of the balance because of all of the checks and balances and the slowing up of things.
Will it be a permanent feature? It will unless the State has a plan B to take the economic indicators quickly to bring in something for us. We are saying here today that we certainly need it. Other than that, this will remain permanent and flow that way. Steel from Wales should be coming into Rosslare. It can now flow freely as a product into Northern Ireland with no tariffs or quota and a different VAT regime for sale, and rightly so, under the agreement. Where are we going to shop for steel? The duty on alcohol matches excise in the UK.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is Mr. Drennan saying that if an Irish company wanted to buy steel, it will buy it from Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland company will simply source it in Wales, ship it to Northern Ireland and then sell it without cost into the Republic?
Mr. John Nolan:
There are tariffs and quotas on steel and when quotas are exceeded, the tariffs cost 25% so Northern Ireland will now not have that 25% on British steel whereas the same steel coming into the Republic of Ireland will have that supervisory quota. Quotas work on a "first come first served" basis. It is without the quota at the start of the month while at the end of the month, when the quota is exceeded, your product is immediately plus 25%-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am trying to get my head around this. That is because Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and the UK market. If somebody was to buy it from the Republic and source it in Northern Ireland, that tariff would be payable.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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But if it was intended to move from Northern Ireland to the Republic, it would be payable.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
When we had a controlled Border, we smuggled everything. Now there is no Border and we can shop freely in the North. Is it not going to make its way down here? It would be a big test of credulity to believe that would not happen. As I said about alcohol, excise duty is different in the UK along with a lower VAT rate so of course it will be cheaper in the North and it is in our memory. We remember coach companies running shopping trips to the North. Is this likely to happen again? Deputy Harkin's area is not too far from the Border. It is an easy journey so we believe traders in these towns will be affected. If we see signs of that, we need plan B. We should make sure we have a plan B, have it thought out and ready to go, look at the indicators and take action. If we get the easements down here, it would be a big help.
Mr. John Nolan:
I do customs in my other world. When I educate people about the paper process and what they have to sign, for every ten inquiries I get, five will materialise in people actually signing the forms, of which three may become a physical load. I must then ask where the other seven go. I never get that answer. The paperwork is always off-putting to people.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Regarding that paperwork and the reluctance around it we see, one thing is very simple for the export trade, namely, the need for authentic original veterinary certificates, dedicated documentation by a member of the Civil Service or an inspector around the ports or the declaration. All our food-producing plants, which account for a big mass of exports, have inspection people from agriculture in them or, if not, have very good health and product controls so they can be trusted. You load it in Wexford or Sligo and seed it up strongly and transfer the details by IT so that is solidly packaged and sealed up. Why do we then need all the certification? Why are they not trusted and let flow as accepted goods and listed like that for the vast bulk of our exports?
Mr. John Nolan:
Regarding imports, there will be a big problem when Great Britain starts to exercise controls from Ireland to the UK. What would help here is both sides recognising electronic health certificates. At the moment, the rule is that the physical piece of paper must be present. Great Britain is trying to get agreement with the EU on electronic health certificates but that has not yet been agreed. It would be part of what I referred to earlier as a veterinary agreement. It would be the thin end and one of the many things to be done in that process. A health certificate adds a delay and possibly a figure of approximately £500 or €500 per load. Those are the figures.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
It is very expensive. This is the first day we have asked for this. Regarding easements, letters have been sent to the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Taoiseach, Maroš Šefovi and Ursula von der Leyen. We asked that anything of UK or EU origin or a composite of both would be accepted if we agree and be freely allowed in here as long as we do not repopulate it into the land mass of the EU. That is our original trading. They are the goods we have always dealt in. The quality and acceptance of what they are, what they are made of and who manufactured them is well known. They are household names. We need something like that in plan B if we go to it.
Regarding not being too dependent on foreign labour, we are not. We have tried three regimes. We have three strands to how we approach it. We are trying to keep our existing drivers and conditions as best we can. We have tried to bring in drivers from their traditional background, namely, farming and tractor usage. Paul Jackman from our management team has put tremendous effort into the ETBs to set up a traineeship and to have this seen as a type of college course because younger people today and their mothers in particular want their children to go to a college so we have gone down that route in training them. We have held lots of hands and have tried to progress but it is tough going. Take up is not what we would like but we have tried that. We would much prefer Irish people to come to the fore because of our area, language and ease of movement but it is not there. This is why we use a two-pronged approach. One is we go through all the visa applications and try to get these inter-governmental connectivities but it is not happening. We have been at this for five years. We have no Ukrainian drivers who are on the road yet. They are here and we have appealed for them. The countries that have agreements with us do not suffice and are not suitable for the most part because they are wealthy economies for the most part.
As I said, the ability to speak English and the issue of easements would help. We need to teach people English and ensure the education and training boards have enough personnel to keep the courses going and allowance is made for a reasonable number of Irish people to attend the same courses and training so that they are put through. Colleges have the problem of whether to run a course and whether and when they will have people. They then have to manage their employment regimes to have people to teach them. The best we have seen is the Cavan and Monaghan Education and Training Board because of the influx of trucks and training up there. Some Sligo people come over and some go to Sligo. It is very proactive in the field in trying to encourage people. It is a hard battle to encourage people into it, however.
Supports and traffic coming into different ports was referenced. Would it help and be more efficient or hold the thing up? No. What would help immensely is to try to change the times of the ferries coming and going to Ireland. For the most part, they all leave and arrive in Dublin at one time. Rosslare Europort some years ago changed its sailing times and it has led to great efficiencies. The port is not blocked up with two ferries at one time. There is a choice of times. Ireland has enough connectivity with ferries coming and going to have a ferry leaving England every two hours. If we were amending it, the choice for us would be around which port we go to to suit tachograph rules and efficiencies. For tourism, however, which is not in our remit today, it would mean that English people could come here in daylight hours at a reasonable time and not be stuck in a port with children very early in the morning or in the middle of the night. That does not lead to a nice fit. It would be great. We are not seeking to tear up the rule book or change it. We have three of the shorter sea ferries to Holyhead leaving Dublin Port between approximately 8.45 a.m. and 9 a.m. One should leave at about 6.30 a.m., or whatever arrangement we come to, and the next one should leave at 8 a.m. or 8.30 a.m. That is not a big gap but the spin-off from merging that to suit the Rosslare ferries throughout the day, with a little bit of separation on the choice and throughput, would be that the service line to Ireland would improve immensely.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Drennan have proposals for changes on the Cherbourg-Rosslare route?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Yes, we have. I have written to the president of Normandy and the French ambassador on this. On the Cherbourg-Rosslare route and the direct ferries to the Normandy ports, we need extension of the northern corridor along from Calais, which is called Corridor de Ghyvelde. When we go to Calais on the old land bridge route, we can travel into the Benelux countries - the low countries - and on into Germany every day at any time. It is a concession road from many of the rules. We need that to extend to the ports where the direct ferries from Ireland arrive. I have said this many times and I met these people when they came here-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is it the same for Dunkirk?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We need it extended to the Normandy ports-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----to improve tachographs.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
We need to have the same rule. We are easily picked off. The fines in France for driving on a Saturday evening or Sunday can be between €2,000 and €5,000. We are only trying to get to market. We are only up at the northern tip; it is not the main recreational area of the bulk of France. It is not to the south. We are not trying to get through France. We are just trying to slip in so that we are at market in Germany-----
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
------or the Polish border on Monday morning.
The other concession we are seeking, which is major but simple in my book, is that part of the ports we arrive into with direct ferries would either be physically or virtually designated as part of Ireland. The French allow the English through the border control in Calais where part of the Calais port is deemed exempt for border force reasons and the movement of people. The French gave the English part of the port to ease the burden of controls and for efficiencies. That has been the case for 25 or 30 years. We want this because when a trailer travels to one of the direct ferries unaccompanied, the French treat the Irish haulier picking up his own trailer with an Irish load as the first movement of cabotage. Therefore, we are examined and we are only allowed one other movement. Then, we have to leave the country. We have drivers at sea. If that was virtually or partially designated to be accepted as Ireland - it could be the size of this room or a postal address or whatever - it would be for regulatory reasons.
There are other rules that kick in in the posting of drivers, the tachograph rules and the length of time a person can spend in a country. They kick in and we have to leave once every two weeks, at least. It would stop drivers having to sail 18 to 22 hours into Rosslare to pick up a trailer to sail out again. They are nearly on sailing trips and luxury sailing trips more than they are driving. Our proposal would lead to cost efficiencies as we would not have the driver charge or the front of the truck or tractor unit costs on the meterage for the ferry. The efficiency of the timeline of delivery and all sorts of general efficiencies are evident. Although the French helped us politically in all our negotiations around Brexit and what-not, again, it is about separating the political from the commercial. They are very slow to come to the commercial world in case we infringe on their businesses.
On the green agenda, the French are interested in intermodal trade by picking up the trailer and taking it by train. That is very relevant. It is also about having inter-arrangements with hauliers here. All of that is good for a portion of the business but for much of our business, we need timely delivery and surety of delivery. We must have the trailer returned efficiently and we must have safety on damage. Companies here want us to accompany very valuable goods and they want those goods to be under our control. We cannot farm them out to a third party.
Where those efficiencies are in place and there is intermodal connectivity to the port, we can look at it. We use this for fruit coming out of southern Italy and southern Spain, which is seasonal, if the train is efficient and connected to the port. That is the mode that is in place and we will use it. Even at a higher cost, the efficiencies are in that, and there is also the safety of carbon. There is only a portion involved in it, but there are savings on those two regulatory items in the cost of fines. Drivers do not want to be stopped and fined and held up by the gendarmerie or English policemen all over the place. We have to mind them as best we can. It is very relevant.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry for interrupting.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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This is very interesting but I am conscious that we have 30 minutes left.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It would be interesting to hear Mr. Drennan's final thoughts on my earlier query.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
My apologies, Deputy Howlin referred to my statement on missing a golden era, which was mentioned in the Wexford People. I said that because we are two years in now. Iarnród Éireann, the old CIÉ, had been in charge of the port. It was one of the mainstays of making money for it and it was profitable throughout the years. The infrastructure is still lousy and we are two years in. I was in Zeebrugge in the last two weeks and I will be there again tomorrow, and I also visited Dunkirk. Members should see the phenomenal rate of improvement taking place in those ports. Zeebrugge is overwhelmed by electronic cars coming in from China. There must be 100,000 cars in the totality of the port. One company which asked me to go out there is caught with 12,000 cars. The port had to apply to the local authority to be given another area of ground. While it is assigned to the port, it is still the property of the local authority there. It applied to the local authority and was given permission to use it. The subcontractor came in and hardcore was laid. The yard was completed within two to three weeks and the whole process took three months. We are two years in and we still have not seen an improvement. Cars arriving in Rosslare are being parked in muck. We cannot get drivers to arrive in time for ferries. It is a controlled process. Neighbours and local people in Rosslare are rightly complaining. Much of the ground owned by the State and its agencies near the port for customs and agriculture purposes is not used other than when the boat arrives. Some alleviation could be done in that port by the Office of Public Works.
I was taken to task in a whisper when going to the port. I was told it was the OPW's fault because it was the lead. That is nonsense. It is always somebody else's fault. Forget fault. I am not talking about fault; I am talking about progress and getting it done. If it is the OPW's fault now because it has been allocated it, what happened over the past 50 years? Shape up and get on with it.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to continue to discuss the particular issues raised with regard to France. Is the main part of this related to France protecting its industry? A certain part of it is because it wants to force movement to rail from an environmental point of view. Obviously, this will not suit with regard to a significant amount of what we are speaking about. Are these the main reasons? Mr. Drennan said he has written to the President of the Regional Council of Normandy. Does the regional body have the power to deal with these particular issues? What engagement has Mr. Drennan had with the Irish Government or anywhere else with regard to moving this on? I can imagine this is somewhat difficult.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Like a lot of things, it is a slow burn. I had engagement with the President of the Regional Council of Normandy. His name is Hervé Morin. Perhaps his family came to or from Wexford long ago. He came here with two trade delegations from France and Normandy. We went to the French commercial promotion events. I said it was time for him to do something for us if he was that proactive. The volume of trade is 180,000 movements a year and many of these go into Normandy. They are delighted with it. They are over the moon. They never saw that opportunity previously. It will lead to tourism. This is the practical back up that we need. Of course the psyche of the French is to protect their own and they are very big into that. The environment may be a little bit of a smokescreen. There are those who would like to see everything going that way. The totality of the Irish road haulage sector and the licensed sector would be approximately half the size of a very big fleet in France. We will not have anything identical to the trade.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You are not putting out anyone's lights out.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Not at all. It is open for them to come here and compete for that business if they want it. I bring the relevance of this to any meeting I go to. We must remember that no meat factory in Ireland ever refuses a farmer's cattle on kill day. This must be moved on the same day. Efficiencies have to be introduced. The French will not be sitting here waiting for the kill or deciding when an Irish farmer will bring the cattle to market. We must be here and we must go with it.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How do we get this issue moved on?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Mr. Morin has more or less kicked it to touch. I have written to him again. I have also gone to the French ambassador and the commercial section at the embassy. They have sent it to Paris. It could be like St. Paul writing to the Corinthians. We might wait a long time to get the letter back.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It has gone to Paris.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is with the central government.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
It is with the central government. I have also raised this with the Irish Government. We have been involved in Brexit, sub-committees and the ten-year plan for freight. We have been involved in the practical issues around this. We have been in and out of the Department of Transport very frequently over the past two years. I must pay credit to the people in the Department for opening up their door and encompassing us. It is a new day for them learning from us. We have raised the issue everywhere we can. I am not shy about speaking to politicians. There is a photograph of me with Deputy Michael Healy-Rae at our conference. It is framed with the caption "Are you right there Michael, are you right?"
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, it was designed without taking this into account.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was introduced to deal with a particular problem.
Mr. John Nolan:
Correct. It was to deal with the herd of eastern European hauliers swamping out the German and French transport industries. This is a side-effect of it. The combined transport directive is going through the EU at present. We are looking for an easement in this to facilitate what we are trying to achieve. We have created the island nations group and it comprises Ireland, Cyprus and Malta. If Deputy Ó Murchú speaks to a haulier from any of these territories he will hear they have the same problems and that the same rules are penalising transport to and from their countries. The EU recognises this but it is an injustice of the Common Market. The EU knows it is an inconvenience but it is slow about providing exceptions. We are looking for exceptions for island nations.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Nolan is not speaking about big players numbers-wise.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
The island nations group will be in Europe again in the end of March. With the establishment of the group we had a furore about how to define an island nation. Some countries have islands and the question was asked as to whether they are entitled to be considered. They are not. Where the land mass of a state is an island, it is an island nation. The rest are states that have islands.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is 100%. The Irish Road Haulage Association has sought technological solutions for various issues. We all know Brexit was a terrible idea. We know the Irish protocol was a mitigation and so is the Windsor Framework. I would not be facetious if I said one obvious solution to deal with the island of Ireland would be to end partition but I do not think we can deliver that in the next two weeks.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, but it is a solution and eventually we will get to that point. Will the Irish Road Haulage Association representatives state explicitly what exactly they are speaking about? On some level they are almost dealing with the island of Ireland being treated in the same way as how the North is being treated. We all get the idea of streamlining health certificates and whatever sanitary checks need to happen. I want the witnesses to be absolutely explicit on their asks. I imagine some of them could create difficulties with regard to the protections of the Single Market. We can hardly have a secondary border between Ireland and the rest of the EU or within this State.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Nolan give a few examples of what foods he is speaking about?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Senator McDowell would know much better than me about this. The complication is that bringing a box of corn flakes from Birmingham to Belfast is UK transport. If we open up the notion of this same box of cornflakes coming from outside the EU into the EU there is a difficulty which my colleague has mentioned. As soon as we start bringing goods in without checks to the Single Market the fear is that people will say we will have to have checks on goods going from the island of Ireland into the rest of Europe.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Even in the trusted trader regime in the Windsor Framework there are checks to be had.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We do not want checks on goods going from the island of Ireland into the rest of the Single Market. That would be a disaster for us.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Extend that to having no border and the flows coming in. How do you stop that going out to the EU market? Either we are trusted or we are trusted. There is a better chance of this being under better control coming through trusted traders here, for which the market is designated. Where is the equivalence of the EU and the balance to trade if we have two splits on the one island?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This is not the first time the IRHA has brought up this issue. What has the engagement been at governmental level and, beyond that, at European level? I imagine there is an element of fear and trepidation.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Yes. That is why I prefaced my words by saying we have to split the commercial from the political. At the time of Brexit and its impact, the emphasis was all political. It was "they are leaving" and "they voted leave", we had all the reasons and all the politics went on. There was no great consideration of the commercial side of this. All the commentary was "they are losing their market", "they are going to be in trouble", "they have left", "give them a kick in the bollix", "they are out of here" and "drive on without them". Our intertrade and the fact that we are trading with our biggest customer, the fifth richest in the world, is now so impacted, and we are paying too high a price-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The IRHA had always said that, and it said that it completely changed the means by which goods came into Ireland in the sense that, even when hauliers from Europe would have come here, collections would have been made in Britain, where, let us say, of that 100%, 10% was for Ireland. That was being got at a cheaper rate so it was collected in Britain and, to a degree, that system worked. Even the workarounds directly to Europe were-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Drennan was clear on that. I think we would need a submission from the IRHA on the specifics as to what it is looking for. There might be a need to do a piece of work on that. I can see, as I said, certain caveats in this regard, but we are all into streamlining, wherever it happens, that makes business easier.
The other point Mr. Drennan made-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will finish up. In the steel tariffs scenario - and on some levels the IRHA is proposing a workaround in respect of the set of circumstances - a company in the North buys in steel and does not have the tariff difficulties. It has the preferable VAT rate etc., so it lands there, and then, if someone from the South goes to buy that steel-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is it.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is it. Mr. Nolan is not under any-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is no need-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is it. Mr. Nolan is saying there are probably workarounds-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----and I imagine that at that point they probably will be dealt with.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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These are the anomalies and the difficulties created by the fact that we have two states on one very small island.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
We have a new regime that allows for significant tolerance on one side of this. I have no problem giving the easements in this offer to Northern Ireland and the unionists. I am on record as long ago as two years ago as having no problem with that. We tightened down for connectivity with Ireland. Our trade is on the commercial business side. The rules and regulations were too tight and did not encompass the wrong side of the scrum position, our trade with the UK historically or the vast size of it. Connectivity tightened down far too much. I have had a van going with copies of the Wexford Peopleto the London diaspora every week for 35 years and I have always brought home new teachers and nurses and their suitcases at a very reasonable cost. They might have a bed or a couch.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is no wonder Mr. Drennan gets his front page.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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This is definitely an education, Mr. Drennan. Was there a latter part of your questioning, Deputy Ó Murchú? You can come back-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I always have more questions but I feel I am-----
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. We are running out of time.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I hope our star pupil, Senator McDowell, is listening very attentively. He looks to be very interested in what is going on here and may have a question at the end.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Harkin.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I better get my skates on.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Drennan. It is nice to see him too. He has made us tease out the differences between the political and the commercial today, and that is no harm. He has covered a huge amount of ground and, to some extent, I will go back over it, but I have just a few points I want to make and a few questions I want to ask him.
He spoke about the pre-Brexit TEN-T route and how it needs to be changed, and he has spoken about some of the work going on here. My simple question on that is what moves the Irish Government is making to make that a reality. It is all right for Mr. Drennan to talk about it and for us to discuss it here, but TEN-T routes are decided between governments and the EU. Are there any real moves on that? That is my first question.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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It certainly is, and we certainly need to gather such momentum, from the discussions we have had today.
As for my second question, Mr. Drennan spoke several times about the need to use IT and to have integrated systems but, to take two of the IRHA's proposals linked together, he asked about a new public-private body at an Irish level that would operate an early warning system for both the Irish Government and the specialised committee and suggested that the IRHA might have observer status on the specialised committee. Again, what is the progress on that? What would be the impact of both those things happening, particularly from the perspective of having some sort of integrated, efficient approach?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
That is so relevant. As for the impact of this, it was part of the original agreement that we would have an EU-Irish or EU-UK body overseeing it. That or another body should be called in to be there to monitor these easements now. As for the progress on them, how they are adapted and so on, we are not party to that. I cannot answer that for the Deputy. If it is not that body, it should be whichever other body. I am sure whoever negotiated this has some ideas after all the negotiations, and they may need to back up their play, but I hope that, commercially, they have a plan B in case we see distortion in trade. Deputy Harkin's constituency is Sligo-Leitrim. I talked about the drink on the buses. Those people are near enough the Border that it would be an easy transfer up there.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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It would be a day out.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Speaking of steel, one of the things I thought about - perhaps this is not the right place to ask this, but I will throw it out there anyway - is that if the steel is coming into Northern Ireland, there are no tariffs, and then, if those companies want to tender for, let us say, infrastructural projects here, what are the implications? This is not really to do with transport but it is just another point that has occurred to me. It is not so much that the Irish companies would go North and perhaps get their steel at a certain price but also that Northern companies would act. Certainly, around where I live, they tender very often and are very much involved in many infrastructural projects. That is more a comment than a question.
Mr. Drennan spoke about a seamless approach to transiting the UK. Will he briefly tell us how it is now and what further challenges he thinks there will be if this agreement goes through?
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
I will address the first question on steel. I cannot answer the fullness of steel because we have not seen the full detail. Perhaps there is a product-by-product tariff or some arrangement. I do not want to given any false information but it is an example of the possibility of what may happen.
On seamless travel going through the UK, the TEN-T route and helping to protect traditional routes, we have people who will have a half load of beef or anything for somewhere in the UK, so then they must use the route onward and it can be tough going to use the route from the UK through Calais. As the Chairman will be aware, on the west coast there is a particular issue and it is tough going for people with molluscs and fresh fish.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
Quite a lot from Donegal, or what is left of that trade, cross Northern Ireland, travel into Scotland and then must drive down the country. There is quite a mixture of stuff, which has been relatively straightened out.
In terms of France, general loads go through the UK but this type of goods, namely, fresh goods, must get to market. The T1 form or customs documentation must be finalised in the port of arrival in France. We have commitments from France to terminate. It used to be a town called Boulogne-sur-Mer. Through our negotiations with the French, we were given a facility in some of the ports we use from the UK into Calais or one of the others but the deficiencies there are very bad. We have had trouble with our customs here where they tell they have terminated the T1 form. The officials will say everything is okay and the truck driver can go but will not sign or stamp the form. However, if you pay €25 at the filling station up the road, which has an agency, then that is terminated immediately.
To be seamless, if we are allowed now into the UK IT system, and if the movement of goods is evident and obvious to everybody, then we should have seamless passage from Dover to Calais when we have to use that route. The UK and the EU have it so why are trucks being stopped and delayed if they have a trusted trader or whatever arrangement? We should have a pretty seamless system. Here, in the arrangements to date about seamless efficiencies, we were very poor in the development of IT for Brexit at the start. It was won on tender and developed by another country, which did not seem to have a grasp of the totality of trade between Ireland and the EU, and Ireland to the UK. In the last two years the IT system has broken down a dozen times. There was a major outage before Christmas, which caused mayhem because it is overloaded.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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Yes, I remember that.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
It is nonsense. So much could be put on a trusted list or whatever way we go or be taken as being, for example, timber or desk chairs and there is no money in this for anybody so there is no need to have this massive control of these goods. Maybe you could have the odd check to make sure they are what they say they are and is what they say it is on the tin. With that totality of control or development, anything that moves must be put on a mutual recognition agreements, MRA, declaration. It goes on a groupage load, which is an amalgam but not a unit load for travelling. A groupage load is an amalgam of all sorts of different products. The amalgam of those products is gathered together in what is known as a PBN or pre-boarding number, so this is what it says and this is how it travels. We then developed it further that the ferry companies at the ramp-up, and we could have it earlier than the ramp-up because we say we are travelling and if we are not travelling then cancel, it but they would not accept until the ramp went up on the ship, but that is then headed for Ireland. The IT system says the load is coming, we have said the load is coming and have said what is in the package. The load will not be looked at in Dublin Port, especially around weekend times, until arrival. We have trucks coming into different places, which is another reason we need an overlook at the usage of the facilities in both Dublin Port and Rosslare. We are going from one terminal to the next terminal and to the next terminal because they did not decide where we have to go but that is controlled by customs. It should be designated in real-time IT to the truckers who leave the ship. They have got it all and it is all there and that movement makes us illegal. We either take the chance because it is a short movement or park up in the first one we go into because the combined rest for a driver is included with the voyage. Once you only use one movement on to the ship and one movement off it then it is completed when we go into terminal 11. If we have to go to the next one, even though it is a short distance, say from here to St. Stephen's Green, then the move is deemed illegal and we can be charged up to 28 days later, and the English are very good at picking us off now and fining us £1,500. So those are the efficiencies in the use of IT, and seamless.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, we have only five minutes left.
Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
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I have loads more questions.
Mr. John Nolan:
Transit from Ireland to France was always delayed. By contrast, France to Ireland was quick because the Irish IT system was always better than the French IT system. As a haulier, if you are doing a transit, if you are going to have a difficulty then it is always travelling from Ireland to France because of the possible Dover delays that we have all seen in the press.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I shall allow two final questions by Senator McDowell and Deputy Verona Murphy, and the delegation can wrap up the meeting.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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What would a hardworking Irish truck driver doing continental work expect to earn in the EU?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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To pick up on the IRHA's asks, I think it is fair to say that Mr. Drennan made the statement about the Irish Maritime Development Office, IMDO.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In conjunction with what is on the front of today's edition of the Wexford Peoplenewspaper, that was a flawed report. The matter has never been addressed and that is why we are behind the curve with Rosslare's infrastructure. Is that fair to say? Also, it must be recognised that the tachograph laws are a science in themselves and were never considered in terms of Brexit traffic flows although trade was considered but not how that trade is moved by road transporters, who are governed by tachograph. Drivers do not do overtime as there is a strict rule about driving time and that mainly is what dictates movements on shipping etc. but this was never considered as part of trade flows and that is where the real downfall occurred. Please address my questions and I am afraid I must leave.
Mr. Eugene Drennan:
The IMDO report is definitely flawed. It was cold statistics that were taken from a time that was not relevant before the actual movement. When Brexit came, and it was going on long enough to have it corrected and we should have been better prepared, it was not ready. We, the Irish Road Haulage Association, guaranteed the two people who brought the first of the extra sailings into Rosslare that we would give them our business to try to get it launched, and the rest of the direct sailings followed from that. They are a private entity. We were approached by two men and we were sworn to silence for a while but we were ready to go. The vested interests, who were at it already, had all the reasons why not and all the blockages that were there, and then marry that with the fact that the State did not get the right information and was not ready to go.
On the tachograph, the Deputy is correct about the flows. At the inception of the tachograph back in 1973, and I am sure Deputy Ó Murchú will love the following, the only one who spoke for the island of Ireland and took interest in it was the late Rev. Ian Paisley. The reason he did that was the Northern Ireland hauliers at the time and the stronger people there had a good hold of his ear, and he was educated about the matter and he knew a little bit about this matter.
On influences, the French, central European states and French unions had a big influence on the matter. The French unions are a law unto themselves and had a lot of restrictive practices, which had an influence on what happened here. What did not come in on the tachograph, and we are still fighting over it, is the island nation status. As I say to everyone, we should be recognised as an island nation and island nations need extra extensions of central European laws. Even though the economics of it are there and, for the most part, are to protect the Union but being an island nation brings a lot of challenges. Now, and this is going through the Irish Road Transport Union, IRU, at the moment, they are opening up the hours of driving for bus operations and coach drivers. Covid has revealed this to us. There was flexibility during Covid and we had no major crashes or upsets on the roads. I have sought that there will be a flexibility of two hours for the returning trucks of island nations to make the ferry. Such a provision would be such a great easement and it does not just throw open the whole laws.
We are not looking to destroy what is already there. However, they are about to allow coach drivers drive extra time. The man driving the person and who is responsible for human life will be able to drive for longer than the man carrying the suitcase. It does not make sense. I thank the Deputy. Would it be possible for me to get a copy of the Wexford People?
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Eugene Drennan agus le John Nolan as an díospóireacht inniu. Táim fíorbhuíoch as na sonraí agus an eolas a tugadh dúinn inniu. We are really grateful for the information and the detail. We are seven years into Brexit, and by the sound of things today that conversation will continue.