Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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This is very relevant in light of the fact that it is the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide. A range of countries have acknowledged it as genocide. They include Canada, which did so in 1996; Vatican City and Italy, which did so in 2000; and Switzerland, Argentina, the Netherlands, Chile and Germany. The European Parliament passed a non-binding motion on the issue. I realise it is a sensitive issue for the people of Turkey but we must remember that one of the first people to acknowledge it as genocide was Turkey's great leader, Kemal Ataturk, who acknowledged in the 1920s that what happened was not just a tragedy, as has been said by others, but genocide. As the Pope said, it was the first genocide of the 20th century. Unfortunately, it was the not last.

I ask colleagues to support this motion. I note that other countries have not had the courage of their convictions, have been lobbied and have said that it is sensitive. It is 100 years later. A wrong was done. Women and children were massacred in a crime against humanity that was by any definition genocide. Ireland, which knows a lot about suffering, should acknowledge the suffering of others. We are not alone if we support this motion. Many countries have supported the motion and I ask colleagues to support it.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I am no historian but I am very familiar with the arguments about the death of so many Armenians. I know it is a very emotive issue. There is a relatively small and compact Armenian community in Ireland. I have met members of it at celebrations. They have some religious leaders here in Ireland and they would argue very strongly that they do recognise it as a serious political issue. I have heard some of their academics speaking in Dublin who were incredibly open-minded about the massacres and deaths that occurred and how one arrives at a solution to the historical complexities of whether it was genocide or how one classifies it.

My only interest in this is in possibly getting a brief from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Unfortunately, I did not know the motion was coming up. I would like to do some research on it and contact some of these Armenian academics who do not support the simplistic flag waving that it was genocide and do not believe this view is a solution to the long-term historical problems that occurred in that period. I am asking whether it is possible to get a briefing and if I could be allowed to do some research regarding Armenians I have heard speaking on this issue in Dublin in order to broaden the debate rather than have a two-line simplistic notion that we have the historical facts right.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the last speaker. The era and the question deserve some consideration and a brief from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade would be helpful, particularly in co-ordinating the thinking on the issue with a view to identifying how best to put in the international arena the issues and the massacre that took place. We should be advised by the Department concerning a description of the tragic event because the Department is the body dealing with this issue internationally.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I support the timely motion put forward by my colleague, Senator Daly. We have just passed the centenary of that awful atrocity. The New York Timesrecently noted that Armenians say that up to 1.5 million Armenian Christians were systematically slaughtered in eastern Turkey through mass killings, forced relocations and starvation. Many historians and legal scholars have called the Armenian killings genocide, including Raphael Lemkin, the Polish Jewish jurist who came up with the term in 1944. The Armenians have lobbied extensively for this to be accepted. I know that the genocide will be observed by Armenians worldwide.

It is interesting that the European Parliament has passed a motion referring to it as genocide and calling on Turkey to acknowledge this very fact. Speaking in the European Parliament, Elmar Brok, a German MEP, underlined what he called the moral obligation to recognise and commemorate such massacres. He said "my own people committed genocides" and that "hundreds of thousands of Armenians died at the hands of the Ottoman empire's henchmen". It is particularly appropriate not just because it is the centenary but also because of what is happening. We just had a discussion here with the Kenyan ambassador about the genocide taking place across the Middle East. We should send a strong signal that genocide is unacceptable. In recognising this, we are putting it up to Turkey to also recognise it. If countries fail or are in denial about this, it is unacceptable and does not nothing to counter extremist, radical thinking which a lot of this emanates from. I am happy to support the motion.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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My colleague, Deputy Ó Snodaigh, had a question down for the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade yesterday.

The reply from the Minister stated: "The Irish government has never taken a position on this issue, believing that it is not in a position to adjudicate on this contentious matter, involving the consideration of a number of legal issues and an assessment of the actions and intentions of many parties during that time." That is an appalling position to adopt. It is denying history and does not help in any way to get an understanding of what happened in Armenia. It is a pathetic answer given that the UN has agreed that what happened meets the criteria of a genocide. As my colleague has said, the European Parliament has passed five motions recognising it as a genocide. A total of 24 countries have officially recognised it as a genocide, including 12 EU countries.

If we do not accept what happened in the past then we cannot learn from the mistakes and move on. Again, Ireland has no problem in recognising the Holocaust as a genocide, the Rwandan genocide or the genocide in Darfur, and rightly so. The question is, why not in Armenia? It is not as if it happened 500 or 1,000 years ago. It happened 100 years ago. There are accurate oral and written accounts of what actually happened. Anyone who reads the evidence at length cannot deny that genocide happened.

Throughout the world victims of genocide ask first for recognition of the crime committed against them. That is usually the process. It is essential as part of the healing process that we discuss it. We need to support them in this recognition. There will be no further trials. The killers got away with the mass murder. It happened 100 years ago. However, I believe it is one of those open wounds that needs to be healed. There needs to be recognition between Armenia and Turkey in respect of what happened. In itself, that would bring those two countries and the whole region closer together. This is positive step that Ireland could take in adopting this resolution.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I support the motion too. It is simply recognising the fact that, unfortunately, there was a mass slaughter of 1.5 million people going back 100 years. Unfortunately, our motion will not change things, but it is important to recognise when wrongdoing is done. There was absolutely wrongdoing on a mass scale. An overwhelming majority of a parliament that is representative of 28 independent states is voting strongly in favour of the motion. This is simply recognising the fact that absolute wrong was done. Whether it was done 100 years ago or today, it has the same validity as wrongdoing. We should mark such wrongdoing and condemn it.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I believe it is a positive motion. I do not know what other word we could use for the murder and slaughter of 1.5 million people except "genocide". It is known in the history books and in political discussion as the Armenian genocide.

Ireland has had to face up to the wrongs done in this country in the past. It is part of that process. The word used in the reply - adjudication - was most unfortunate. What is there to adjudicate on? The facts are there. We are not making a comment about anyone. We are simply acknowledging an empathy and sympathy with the Armenian people. The Turkish reaction when the Pope made a similar comment last week was unfortunate. I support the motion. It is long overdue.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Chairman, I have to press the motion because it is important. This is the 100th anniversary. Next week is not the 100th anniversary. Of course it is a sensitive issue. It will remain a sensitive issue whether it is this week or next week.

I had the pleasure and honour of serving on the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs with our President. I am sure he has an opinion. I would not dare to venture what that would be, but I think many of us could guess what it would be. The facts are there. We know how the system works in this House. I am asking my colleagues to abstain if they cannot support the motion so that it can be passed. The reply from the officials is not going to change. If the Minister, who signed off on that reply, believed it deserved attention, he would have given a different reply. The reply is not going to change.

There is nothing offensive about it. What we are acknowledging is the suffering and loss of the Armenian people in a genocide that has been acknowledged by the European Union and others throughout the world as a genocide. Others, for political reasons, have chosen not to acknowledge it. The statistics say 1.5 million people but the fact is it was a genocide. Therefore, I will press the motion.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Chairman, we have-----

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Chairman, we are not here as a elected members of the committee to be led by the nose by the Department. This is a straightforward incident in history on which the members of the committee can take a view. Some may not want to condemn it and some may wish to condemn it. I am in the latter group. I do not think the Department's views are relevant.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Lest there be any doubt about the willingness or otherwise of members of the committee to condemn atrocities that took place, whether 100 years ago or otherwise, I am keen to reiterate that I and, I imagine, my colleagues will not be found wanting when it comes to the condemnation of any such atrocities. I believe it is fitting, though, in the circumstances and given that the reply was not adequate and did not fully address the issues - I was in the House at the time yesterday - to request a brief from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade before we decide to proceed on a particular motion of this nature, which may well be resented by some.

There is a need for recognition of what took place at that time and we need to adopt a particular position on it. We do not need to do so for political purposes or anything else. We need to have an up-to-date evaluation from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on its intentions in this regard. Let us keep in mind that previous Administrations in this jurisdiction have avoided the issue. We should not avoid the issue, we should deal with it. However, we should deal with it on the basis of the most up-to-date report from the Department and the Minister.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Are we saying the reply given yesterday was not an up-to-date report?

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Anyone can Google it if they do not believe what was said in the reply, Chairman.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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For the benefit of members, we are not beholden to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. We are elected Members of these Houses. We represent the people. The people-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is the issue. Members do not-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is well aware that the motion was before the committee but it chose not to brief members. It gave a four line reply to the death of 1.5 million people in a genocide 100 years ago.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The best it could do in the Dáil - the House of the Irish people - to a question by an elected Member was that the Government has never taken a position on the issue, believing that it is not in a position to adjudicate on this contentious matter involving the consideration of a number of legal issues and an assessment of the actions and intentions of many parties during that time. It is the worst reply I have ever seen on any matter. It is a terrible-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Department had its opportunity.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The Department had its opportunity. The motion was tabled. If the Department chose not to brief members, that is up to it but members are quite willing and able to brief themselves. The motion has been available for a week.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The next time the Department might give a comprehensive reply.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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On a point of information on procedure, I was very familiar with Dublin City Council's approach to taking decisions on a motion, after which one could not debate it for a further six months. If we vote on the motion today, are there restrictions on when the matter might come up again for further debate?

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It is the same system. In the light of that information, it is important for everyone to recognise that if a vote is taken and the motion is defeated, it cannot be debated for another six months.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Whether it is defeated or not is entirely up to Deputy Eric Byrne.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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If Senator Daly is arguing so strongly in favour of the motion, surely he would like us to vote in favour of it? In that case, would he not defer the discussion for a week?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Eric Byrne can abstain if he wishes.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It is up to Senator Daly.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No, it is entirely up to Deputy Eric Byrne.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will vote on it.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If the Senator does not want to discuss the matter for another six months.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We can write to the Department and ask the Minister for a reply and see whether the response will be any different in a week's time. I can guarantee this-----

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It took me six months to prepare research for a previous motion.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The motion is not agreed.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Could we ask the Department for the briefing?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, we do not all have the same concern. The motion was very clear that the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade recognises the suffering and loss of the Armenian people this year, the year of the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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That is what the Fine Gael and Labour Party members voted against.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We can arrange it next week.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Let us call a spade a spade.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The Government is involved in too much spin.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The Chairman is spinning so much he does not even know when he is doing so.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Senator does the same himself.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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A few contortions as well.