John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and those in the gallery to turn off their mobile phones, because they interfere with the sound quality and transmission of the meeting. If they are on the desk, this interference is picked up.

I advise witnesses that you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give the committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 163 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Ms Noirín O’Sullivan, Acting Garda Commissioner, and I ask her to introduce her officials. As this is her first time here as Accounting Officer, I wish her well.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

I thank the Chairman. I am joined by Mr. Cyril Dunne, chief administrative officer; Mr. Michael Culhane, executive director of finance; Superintendent Con O'Donohue, who has responsibility for the Garda National Traffic Bureau; Assistant Commissioner John Twomey, who has responsibility for traffic; Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan, from the Department of Justice and Equality; and Mr. Ronan Gallagher, from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses are all welcome.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

As the Chairman has stated, the committee is examining the 2012 appropriation account for the Garda Síochána Vote. The appropriation account records gross expenditure of €1.46 billion in 2012. This represents a 6.7% reduction year on year. Salaries and pensions accounted for 87% of expenditure. Total payroll costs were just over €955 million, including €203 million on allowances and €42 million on overtime. Overall, there was an 8% reduction in spend on pay. Pension payments to retired members of the force in 2012 were just under €318 million, up 3.5% year on year. At the end of 2012, approximately 13,400 Garda members and more than 2,000 full-time equivalent civilian staff were employed.

Along with those for the Health Service Executive and Army pensions, the Vote for An Garda Síochána is one of those that require a Supplementary Estimate each year, as I have outlined in Chapter 5 of my report. Relative to the total gross expenditure provision in 2012, the net increase that was provided through the Supplementary Estimate was modest, at approximately 1.5%. However, Supplementary Estimate adjustments were made to all the Vote subheads in 2012, and some of these were significant. For example, €43.2 million was spent on postal and telecommunications services in 2012, compared to an original provision of €34.7 million, which was a 24% increase on budget. Spending under the transport subhead was 30% greater than originally provided for. As I have pointed out in Chapter 5, no explanation of such budget variances was required in the appropriation account, since Note 3 only focuses on variances relative to the final appropriated figure. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has accepted my recommendation about this. As a result, the accounting policies for appropriation accounts have been amended so that from 2013 on, explanations will be provided in Note 3 of each appropriation account for all significant subhead budget variances, including those met through supplementation.

The committee may also wish to note a change in the presentation of information on payments related to compensation cases made from the Vote. These amounted to almost €16.6 million in 2012. In the past, the information was given in narrative form in Note 6, and was difficult to absorb or to analyse. A tabular format for the information is now used in Note 6.4, which I believe is a clearer and more comprehensive disclosure of the information. It includes a breakdown of compensation awards and legal costs.

The committee is also considering Chapter 8, which reviews the management of outsourced safety cameras. This deals with issues that are tangential to those dealt with in Chapter 7, which reports on the operation generally of the fixed charge notice system. That chapter has been examined previously and is still open before the committee. In July 2005, the Government approved a proposal for outsourcing for a network of speeding detection cameras. An Garda Síochána began a procurement process in 2007, which indicated the likely cost of the contract would be higher than originally envisaged. The estimates of revenues from the operation of the contract were also revised down. A contract was subsequently agreed with the successful tenderer, the GoSafe consortium, to provide outsourced speeding detection cameras for a period of five years, beginning in November 2010. Chapter 8 outlines arrangements for the management of the contract.

A number of graphs in Chapter 7 give an overview and context for the first two years of operation of the GoSafe contract. Figure 7.2, which is on screen, shows the number of speeding offences each month in 2011 and 2012. There was a significant spike in detections in February 2011 when GoSafe deployment ramped up. There was a noticeable downward trend in detections in the last quarter of 2012. Figure 7.3 analyses the number of fixed charge notices issued in each six month period in 2011 and 2012. What stands out is the trend decline in the number of detections by GoSafe cameras. This contrasts with the steadier rate of detection by Garda-operated speed cameras over the same period. GoSafe vans were initially deployed in 518 selected zones where high collision rates had occurred in the years 2004 to 2008. Figure 8.2 presents data on the number of fatal collisions in these zones and non-GoSafe zones. This indicated that a significant reduction in the incidence of fatal collisions in the targeted zones had already occurred, before the GoSafe cameras were deployed. The report notes that the zones were adjusted in March 2013 when the number of hours that GoSafe cameras are deployed for speeding detection was also increased.

The budgeting and accounting for the GoSafe contract is unusual. Since the inception of the contract, a nominal provision of €100,000 has been made in the Vote each year for the contract cost, even though the spend is anticipated to be in excess of €15 million a year. The nominal amount is included with other provisions in subhead A6, which provides for communications and other equipment payments. On the receipts side, the Estimate has included €100,000 a year in respect of receipts from fixed charge fines. Late in the year, as part of the Supplementary Estimates process, the payments and receipts sides are increased. The implication of this approach to budgeting for GoSafe transactions is that there will continue to be a technical supplementary estimate on the Garda Vote each year, even if the overall Vote budget is managed tightly.

When the GoSafe contract was approved by Government, it was envisaged that the receipts from the detections would be more than enough to cover its costs. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform sanctioned the proposed contract expenditure on that understanding. The outturn has been quite different, with less than 30% of the contract costs being recovered from detections in 2012. The shortfall in receipts from GoSafe detections is met by fixed charge notice fine receipts related to other detected offences, which would otherwise have been paid into the Exchequer. I recommended that a revised sanction be sought from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to regularise the GoSafe transactions on the Vote account. I note that the initial five year contract is due to finish before the end of this year. A formal review of the operation and cost effectiveness of the contract would therefore be timely.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it in my capacity as Accounting Officer for the Garda Vote to discuss the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Annual Report 2012 and in particular Chapter 8 concerning the management of outsourced safety cameras. I have furnished the committee with a briefing document on this matter and, as such, will keep these remarks brief, as requested.
It is important to state that the outsourcing of safety cameras has played a critical role in reducing road deaths and improving the safety of our roads. Since its introduction in November 2010, the safety camera project has in a targeted, systematic and transparent way led to a reduction in fatal collisions and improved speed limit compliance rates in the zones in which they are located. For example, in the five years prior to their introduction, approximately 30% of fatal collisions annually occurred in particular zones. In 2013, there was a 40% reduction of fatal collisions in these zones – this was a saving of 23 lives. In addition, survey data from these zones in 2011 showed that average compliance rates across all speed limits was 81%. By January this year, the compliance rate was 95% - or a 17% improvement.
To ensure that these improvements are maintained, the designation of areas of road as speed enforcement zones is kept under constant review and collision data is analysed to identify where they will be most effective in influencing driver behaviour. The location of all 727 speed enforcement zones nationally is available to the public on garda.ie. These safety cameras are operated by GoSafe under the direction of An Garda Síochána. An Garda Síochána has responsibility for the scheduling of monitoring and survey sessions, with the superintendent at the Garda National Traffic Bureau, GNTB, having responsibility for ensuring oversight of the day to day running of the project. This takes place in the office for safety camera management, OSCAM.
OSCAM monitors the performance of GoSafe daily across a range of areas. Any issues with individual safety camera sessions are notified by GoSafe to OSCAM on a daily basis, which allows for any potential issues to be dealt with quickly.

Regular meetings are also held with GoSafe management to ensure compliance with the contract in areas such as key performance indicators, service performance, roster performance, and court performance. This approach ensures that the GoSafe contract is fully monitored and upheld by An Garda Síochána. GoSafe is contracted to provide 7,475 hours of monitoring and surveying per month. Since June 2011, GoSafe has consistently exceeded the contractual requirement and all shortfalls in session hours prior to that date have been recouped by the State at no cost. In total, more than 275,000 hours of enforcement have been completed by GoSafe since the project’s launch.

The safety camera project is achieving its overall aim of reducing speed-related collisions and, therefore, saving lives. Less than ten years ago, in 2005, there were 396 road deaths. In 2013, there were 190 road deaths. While, regrettably, the number of road deaths did increase in 2013, it still remains the third lowest number of fatalities ever recorded. While it is never easy to speak about the loss of life and death in monetary terms, this reduction in fatal and serious injury collisions has also generated savings to the State. As stated in the Road Safety Strategy 2007-2012, the ESRI estimates the cost of a fatality at €2.28 million and that of a serious injury at €305,000. The total cost of fatal road collisions in the period 2000–2005 was €4.704 billion and the cost of serious injuries was €4.659 billion.

The safety camera system has proven to be one of a number of effective enforcement and education methods employed by An Garda Síochána during the past ten years to reduce road deaths in this country. Working in close collaboration with our partner the Road Safety Authority, An Garda Síochána is committed to continuing this work to make our roads safer for all.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the acting Garda Commissioner for her opening statement.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the acting Garda Commissioner and her team. On subhead 3, what was the reason for the 24% increase in the cost of telecommunications?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

The executive director, Mr. Culhane, will respond to the Deputy's question.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The increase in cost under that particular subhead relates to the contractual commitment entered into by An Garda Síochána in relation to the introduction of the TETRA radio system.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Was that not foreseen?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It was foreseen, but the funding provided under that subhead did not cover the full cost of the contract plus other items in that subhead such as telephone lines, lease lines and mobile communications.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It seems quite excessive.

On An Garda Síochána's GoSafe contract, while I appreciate the acting Garda Commissioner's remarks in regard to saving lives and understand how important this is to all of us, in terms of European comparators, driving behaviour, roads infrastructure and cars in Ireland have improved and, as such, we cannot be certain that the improvement in road deaths and so on is down to the camera project. Given that the project has run over budget - it will come in this year at approximately €12 million over budget - and the fact that the number of penalty points being awarded is not at the level we would like, is it wise to continue with the GoSafe project? It appears to me that there is a better return on investment from the Gatso vans operated by An Garda Síochána.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It is important to point out that GoSafe and the safety cameras are only two aspects of our roads enforcement strategy. In terms of value for money, and certainly in terms of lives saved - as I said, it is difficult to speak about any loss of life or serious injury in monetary terms - it is working. One of the reasons for the reduction in receipts is that the GoSafe and Gatso safety cameras are achieving the objective of increasing compliant behaviour. The objective was always to reduce speed-related collisions and, as a consequence, to ensure that fewer lives were lost, but it was also to ensure more compliant behaviour. One of the reasons for the placing of information about positioning of GoSafe cameras on garda.ieis to ensure people know where they are located, because the focus is on ensuring responsible road user behaviour as opposed to catching people, thus ensuring there are fewer detections. There are other aspects to the strategy. We also have Garda robot vans and covert and overt methods of roads traffic enforcement. GoSafe is only one pillar, but it is achieving its objectives in terms of ensuring more compliant behaviour, as a result of which receipts are down. It needs to be taken in context in terms of where we are going.
In regard to European averages, current levels here are the third lowest ever recorded on our roads. I believe GoSafe has been a positive contract. With regard to renewal, the Deputy will be aware that the contract will be reviewed, and it is anticipated that it will be renewed at the end of its contractual period. We maintain a constant review of it month-on-month and year-on-year to ensure it is achieving its objectives.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It would appear from some of the figures provided that the GoSafe vans are detecting only one in 40 drivers as speeding, while the Garda Síochána vans are detecting higher numbers of people doing so.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes. One of the reasons for this is that the positioning of the GoSafe vans is made known to people, while the Gatso vans are used as part of our other enforcement strategy in areas where the GoSafe vans are not deployed and, therefore, the detection rates are much higher. This speaks to the fact that the GoSafe vans are achieving the objective in so far as they are encouraging people to reduce speed.

Looking at the statistics, currently the average compliance rate is 81%. In 100 km/h zones, it is 99%, which is very positive. My colleague Superintendent O'Donohue, who has day-to-day responsibility for the management of the system, will explain the difference in more detail.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

The GoSafe vans are deployed based on analysis of five years of collision data on a rolling basis. Last year, the number of zones monitored increased from 518 to 727, which was achieved through the removal of some of the original zones and the addition of new ones. These 727 zones are in areas where approximately 48% of all fatalities occur. We now propose to reduce the number of zones monitored. To clarify, with regard to the reduction by 40% in the zones, this is based not on the national figure but on the percentage of road deaths. For example, of the 190 deaths that occurred last year, 17% occurred in zones. The percentage in respect of the figure for previous years was 30%. We do not factor in the overall reduction in road deaths across Europe and in Ireland. While we take that into account, our baseline figure is a percentage of our yearly figure. In this regard, we are successful.

The robot vans are deployed to other areas of the road network. People are not made aware of their location. They could be located in areas of high traffic volumes at different times each day. GoSafe is a 24-7, 365-day operation. These vans are also located in rural areas. Members will be aware of the significant percentage of deaths that took place for many years during the early hours of Friday, Saturday and Sunday mornings. GoSafe is operated based on trends in particular areas on different days of the week and different times of the day. In terms of policing, the 727 zones account for 2.7% of the road network. However, this is a significant percentage based on the level of collisions in those areas. The number of fatalities in these areas is disproportionately high. There has been a significant improvement in these areas.

As stated by the acting Garda Commissioner, the remainder of our enforcement strategies are based in the other 97% of the road network. For example, if a robot van is placed in an area previously monitored by a GoSafe van, we do not make people aware of it. This is often done on busy roads with huge volumes of traffic. It is important to get the message out and to remind people to slow down. They do not have the same knowledge of what we are doing in these areas and, as such, the impact in terms of compliance is not the same. However, it is does have a gradual effect. It is this consistent approach in small areas that has brought about the changes, thus reducing the number of fatalities and injuries.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Am I correct in my reading of the information provided that it is proposed to add an additional 320 GoSafe zones?

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

We are constantly reviewing them and we are due to review them again as we move through the contract.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

There was an increase from 518 zones to 727 zones last year.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Some were taken out, as I understand it.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Driving behaviour would have improved.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

We examine trends. With GoSafe we apply weighting in camera deployment, so not only would we examine the 727 zones, we would consider the compliance level within those zones and fatality numbers. If there has been a fatality, we review the number of hours of enforcement put into that zone for following months. When we started the contract we considered rostering on a monthly basis but that has now been changed to a weekly basis in order to give us more flexibility. There is a weighting for new zones and where there have been serious injuries or fatal collisions. These are factored in to ensure that even within those 727 zones, we can prioritise certain areas that need greater enforcement.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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How did we get this so wrong? The original cost of €11 million or so was meant to be collected in fixed-charge fees or penalty notices.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

At the outset of the project in 2006, we dealt with projections on the level of compliance. With regard to international comparators at the time and even now, the average compliance rate internationally is expected to be approximately 50%. Our compliance rate much exceeds this and we initially achieved compliance of 81%. In the various zones now, the range is between 86% and 99%. The level of compliance would not have been predicted and the result is that receipts are down. On the positive side, compliance and safer road user behaviour are more evident.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I accept that but part of our job is to examine the costs.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Absolutely.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The original projection was €70 million and €4.6 million was brought in last year. It cost the Garda Síochána another €11 million not allocated in the original budget. It is an incredible variance and the figures are quite a distance from what they were supposed to be. How did that happen?

Mr. John Twomey:

This is the first time this type of contract has been used anywhere and the outsourcing of enforcement to mobile safety cameras is a unique approach, as in other jurisdictions fixed cameras are used. We use a mobile camera that offers greater flexibility and as compliance improved, we had the flexibility that we spoke about earlier. Calculations were based on what happened in other jurisdictions and the estimated reduction of 50% in the level of enforcement. It was a best guess at the time and there were heavy caveats in the original tender outlining that this was a new and variable factor. We were moving into the unknown in terms of estimating any costs or cost savings.

The key issue for us is the saving of lives. That is why safety was used as a factor at the outset rather than speed. This was not about speed detection cameras but safety cameras because we wanted people to slow down. We told people where the sites are and they know that if they exceed the speed limit in those locations, they are more likely to be killed or seriously injured than anywhere else on the road network. Those places are clusters where fatalities and serious injuries occurred. There are many elements attached to the issue and the key indicator from a road safety perspective was whether lives were saved. It was difficult to introduce an estimate as it was a unique operation.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Could we achieve the same objective now by putting in fixed cameras on roads where people know there are cameras?

Mr. John Twomey:

The flexibility, mobility and agility of the various camera systems complements the other elements of our enforcement campaign. In other jurisdictions-----

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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From a cost-benefit perspective, could the same result be achieved from a fixed camera? It would have just one initial cost.

Mr. John Twomey:

The compliance we achieved was far greater than what was achieved in other jurisdictions, which would go to supporting the initiative behind the scheme. On average, other jurisdictions achieved in the region of 50% compliance but our rate was far higher.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I presume that with technology and the quality of cameras improving, this might be an issue that can be examined in future.

Mr. John Twomey:

Absolutely. When the contract is renewed, all these issues will be back on the table for consideration.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Twomey. We are not where we would like to be with the processing of fixed-penalty fines. There are 70% of people who pay them upfront and do as they should but approximately 20% of people never get fined by the time the process is finished. There has been much talk about this and work done. My understanding is the Garda Síochána process these fines and take them as far as court. Some people never get a summons and if they do, the process would not get to the penalty points stage. Would it make sense to consider outsourcing this? Does the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform have an opinion?

Mr. Ronan Gallagher:

Generally, outsourcing the likes of fines collections is being considered across various areas of the Civil Service with regard to getting better compliance rates. It would ultimately be a matter for An Garda Síochána to decide if the option would suit its operations. In terms of general policy, outsourcing such elements is an option.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Has the Garda considered that?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes. As a result of the fixed charge processing system report produced by the inspectorate, a revised policy has been implemented since last June. We have implemented the matters specifically relating to An Garda Síochána. There is also a criminal justice working group which comprises all constituents, including the Courts Service. It is considering a number of available options and those which will come with the 2010 legislation, including the third payment option. That will certainly open a number of options to achieve the required options.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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What is the status of the Schengen project and the major investigation management systems? They are in the 2012 accounts.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Up to 2012, significant inroads were made with the Schengen and major investigation management projects. Currently, we are revising some of them. The major investigation management project was identified as having a number of "building blocks" and we have managed to implement two of those. We are in the process of looking at how we can continue on that path with current finances. I can get the executive director of finance, Mr. Dunne, to expand on that.

Mr. Cyril Dunne:

I will deal with the major investigation side first. Initially, we were going to deliver the project over six phases. These were major investigation management, focusing on the document and content management side; exhibit tracking; informant handling; intelligence management and search for intelligence; investigative analysis; and enterprise search. When we examined the cost of splitting it in such a fashion, we identified a better delivery approach, where we focused on informant handling and intelligence management first so we could deliver them early on. That was also driven by some of the recommendations coming through from various reports, particularly from the inspectorate side.

The first phase of the major investigations project was started in 2010 and we have that solution in place for what we call the national source management unit, with the "source" being an intelligence source. We developed that over six months and it has been deployed in all those units within the Dublin metropolitan region. We completed roll-out to all the other regions in February 2012.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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What was the outcome?

Mr. Cyril Dunne:

To answer that I would defer to my operational colleagues.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

The outcome has been very positive. It has streamlined the system a great deal and provides us with robust audit trails and good oversight and accountability mechanisms. It has been a very successful outcome.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is good to hear that.

Mr. Cyril Dunne:

The second phase commenced in March 2013 and that is focused on the implementation of intelligence management and a system to make sure we have absolute oversight and control on that. Again, that is to support specialist units in An Garda Síochána. It looks at capture, analysis and particularly at dissemination of intelligence, because intelligence is no good unless it is made available for use. That second phase also involves the implementation of document and content management or the automation of the paper, for want of a better way of putting it. That element within the system is currently in what we call functional design and we expect it to go live before the end of this year. There is good progress on it. Obviously, all of the developments in these areas are subject to funding and we manage the delivery in the best way we can. We believe it is progressing well.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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What about the Schengen project?

Mr. Cyril Dunne:

We have not progressed that to the same extent. One of the prerequisites for us to actively participate in what are called the non-border aspects of Schengen is that we will have to put in place necessary computer systems, but that will take approximately 12 to 24 months from the point where we start on the delivery of the project. With regard to where we are to date, we go through a proposal process as part of the procurement process. We have identified a preferred supplier and we are in the process, with the Chief State Solicitor's office, of putting a contract in place to ensure that we have absolutely tied down the delivery and what needs to be delivered as part of that-----

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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What is the proposed outcome of the Schengen project? What do we hope to achieve?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It is to enable better transfer of information and intelligence between member states. It will provide a law enforcement tool to allow dissemination and sharing of intelligence in more real time. At present, we do that through our Interpol office. There is an Interpol and Europol office based at Garda headquarters where we do that. It provides an electronic solution to further enable that, but it is even working very well at present.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Is there a lot more movement of non-Europeans in Ireland?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes, there would be. It allows for more streamlined sharing of information.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Acting Garda Commissioner and her colleagues. My questions are not so much about the traffic element but about the general Garda Vote. The number of gardaí is approximately 13,000 at present, down from 14,000 in 2011. How has the reduction of approximately 1,000 gardaí impacted on the ability of the Garda Síochána to do its job?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

The current number is just below 13,000. The introduction of the new rosters last year has greatly helped us to cluster those resources. It has allowed us to focus more on the deployment of personnel and, particularly at the cross-over of the units, it gives us more people to put on the street. However, it is something we keep under constant review. At present, the rosters have certainly helped us in terms of looking at where people are placed and then being able to cluster the resources to maximise the operational efficiency of the people we have, and also to feed into a high visibility policing strategy.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is the current position, but how has the reduction of 1,000 members of the Garda Síochána impacted on its ability to do its work? Ms O'Sullivan mentioned the compensating factors, but the force is still down by 1,000 members.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It has certainly given us the opportunity to look at the way we go about doing our business, and it has given us the opportunity to look at where we must prioritise in doing our business, that is, where the operational requirements are and prioritising those operational requirements. That has led us to the revised roster system we have introduced. We are going through a review of that at present to ensure it is continuing to do what it was provided for. We have been very much focused on that.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I get the impression that the loss of 1,000 members of the force has not impacted on its ability.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

No, I would not say it has impacted on our ability.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What were they doing if they are gone and it has no impact?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Obviously, the more people one has, the more one can do. However, I do not think it has impacted. To give an example, our detection rates and our ability to investigate crime have not been impacted by it. Even with regard to the subject of road traffic, obviously because we have lost people the numbers dedicated to road traffic enforcement had to be reduced, nevertheless it still means our enforcement activities are up.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would not make this point but I will put it to Ms O'Sullivan. If the numbers were cut by another 1,000 and the Garda just did things more efficiently, would it be as good a force then as it is today? I do not understand how the Garda can lose 1,000 members and its service is improving. Was it not well managed up to now? Could further better management, rostering and so forth compensate for another reduction? I would not make that point, but it is a logical follow-up to what Ms O'Sullivan is saying. Where is the point below which one should not go?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We are very close to the point below which we should not go. It is not because we lost 1,000 people that we are doing our job more efficiently. The operating environment has changed considerably, and the environment in which we are working and operating has changed considerably as well. We must continuously review and adapt to meet those changes. At present, the people we have are deployed in such a way that we are achieving maximum effectiveness from them, and we will keep that under review. As I said, we are engaged in a review of the rosters at present and the outcome of that will help us to continue to improve on where we deploy our people as well.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Ms O'Sullivan's reference to rosters brings to mind the Haddington Road agreement. How many members of the force were impacted by the pay cuts in that agreement? In other words, how many people were on a salary of over €65,000, which is the figure at which people had their salary cut? What were the savings from that cut? What other savings have resulted from the Haddington Road agreement?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Perhaps I could ask my colleague, Mr. Culhane, to respond to that.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What are the savings from the Haddington Road agreement in 2013 and the projected savings for 2014 and 2015? What is the target year-by-year and how is it being achieved?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We have the schedule.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Ms O'Sullivan would distribute the schedule after the meeting.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Absolutely.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The target for 2014 is €29 million. In terms of members who are earning more than €65,000 per year, the central measure that is being introduced there has a target saving of €2 million. That was a centralised measure that was implemented, but based on our evaluation of the number of people we have who are receiving in excess of €65,000-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does the witness have that number?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

I do not have the exact number but it will yield savings of €1.3 million. I can get the Deputy the number of members.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What was the €2 million mentioned earlier?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

We were given the target of €29 million by the centre, of which €2 million was allocated to that particular measure. Having done an analysis of the people who are in receipt of salaries in excess of €65,000, we have estimated that the measure will yield a saving of €1.3 million, which is €700,000 short.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is 30% to 40% below the estimated savings.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes, approximately.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is it expected to achieve all the estimated savings under the Haddington Road agreement that have been given to the Garda?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

What we believe to be achievable across a number of measures is in the order of €16 million.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is from the $29 million figure.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps this is a broader question, so I will make an observation. If that is indicative of the savings the Haddington Road agreement is delivering in such a big section of the public sector, €16 million out of €30 million means it is only achieving marginally over half of what we have been told the savings would be.

I make the observation that this is something we must examine across all sectors. These savings may be indicative of other sectors and it raises an issue across the public sector that only 50% of the targeted savings from the Haddington Road agreement, €29 million, will be achieved. I am not criticising the savings but targets that were brandished when selling the Haddington Road agreement.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

A number of measures in the Haddington Road agreement take time to implement so we may not achieve all of the savings for 2014 but in subsequent years we expect to improve the percentage.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What was the target and what was achieved in 2013?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

From recollection, the target was €15 million, of which we achieved approximately €9 million.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is well over half but a long way short of the actual target. Has this been built into the Estimate for the year? When the Minister announces the Estimate on budget day, will this cause difficulty? The Department has been asked to find €29 million this year and can only achieve €16 million. Where will the other €30 million be achieved? Will it involve a Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It is part of the Haddington Road agreement. The Garda Inspectorate is also conducting a review of measures within the Garda Síochána that may identify additional savings. I would not rule out the figure yet. Work is ongoing in terms of new measures to be put in place to achieve the savings target. If there is a shortfall, we must address it through the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. That will be part of the ongoing discussions with the Department of Justice and Equality.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Culhane for that information but it raises a worrying issue about savings across the public service.

How many Garda stations are open? Over 100 were closed. How many are open and how many have members of the Garda Síochána living in the accommodation?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

I am not sure we have that exact data available to us today. We can get a note on it.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How many stations are there?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

550.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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An inquiry was announced recently by the Government, with an independent panel of seven barristers examining complaints into Garda activities. Has the Garda Síochána been involved in this? Has it been given the list of 200 complaints and does it know what is being investigated? I do not need to know the details of any of the cases. There are 250 cases concerning the Garda Síochána some of them go back through the years we are talking about. Does the lack of resources contribute to some of the issues and to some matters not being investigated fully, resulting in people not being happy? Has there been a reinvestigation or is it being done externally? What right of access have the people who will carry out the investigation to confidential Garda data information?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

I am aware a panel of experts has been appointed to examine a number of complaints received in a number of areas. I know they exceed 200. We are not directly involved in the process at this time but, in regard to any information required from the Garda Síochána, we will fully co-operate with the panel of experts and make available to it any information to assist in the work.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Garda Síochána allowed to disclose Garda information to external people?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes, if it assist their inquiries.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to procurement, I see in Vote 20, on page 3, reference is made in the report to 50 contracts, totalling €5.3 million, that were not procured in line with government procedures. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to it. Some 11 of them were extensions of existing contracts and one can understand rolling on contracts. Some 21 of them, amounting to €2.1 million represented cases where local procurement arrangements were not in line with Government guidelines. That is an average of €100,000 in each of those 21 cases. I think the Acting Commissioner says she has corrected it now. What is the biggest item where local arrangements were not in line with national procurement?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The largest items that were not procured in accordance with public procurement procedures related to medical services for persons detained. From recollection, the expenditure is approximately €1.9 million. It occurs where persons detained require medical services. A local doctor is required to attend in road traffic incidents. Where a doctor is required to attend, the local doctor is used. The fixed fee paid is in accordance with a Department of Finance circular. The issue was in terms of procuring medical services and whether it was strictly in compliance with public procurement procedures and it was determined that it was not. We are in the process of putting in place contracts to procure the services.

The other item concerns the towing of cars involved in road traffic accidents or are causing a problem on a road. We use a local tow wagon operator to tow away the car. To ensure compliance with public procurement procedures, we are putting in place contracts across the country to ensure the contracts are in place as a result of a public procurement process.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Where there is a car accident, the Garda Síochána must be able to phone someone and get the truck out there within 20 minutes. I understand that. Were there no approved rates of €20, €40 or €100 an hour in place for the contractors? Was it up to the local superintendent to ask the service provider to send in the bill?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

No, rates were negotiated in advance. Given the nature of the business and the volume of the business put through the local contract, we expected a discount on the established rate.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The next matter concerns receipts rather than expenditure and is covered on pages 16 and 17 of the Vote. The first concerns the receipts from banks in respect of cash escorts. Some €4.3 million was expected in 2012 but only €2.9 million was received, a decrease of €1 million on the previous year. Is less cash being carried? Why is there such a reduction? What is the figure now?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

We have a memorandum of understanding with the Irish Banking Federation for recovering the cost of providing cash escorts. We have full cost recovery and the amount is due to the volume of escorts and the number of shipments of cash. In 2012, there was a timing issue in respect of the moneys received from the Irish Banking Federation. It was delayed and the 2013 receipts have increased as a result.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What is the approximate figure for this year?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

We have a target of €3.8 million, from memory.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does that include air support and fixed wing aeroplanes as well as ground support?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The memorandum of understanding covers the Garda Síochána vehicle escorts and does not cover air coverage, if any.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is air coverage.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

That is an operational matter.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will provide some colloquial knowledge. I live on the old N7 and every Thursday morning at 9.45 a.m an aeroplane does a circle over my house because it is following the route of the vans coming from Sandyford to Limerick. It has been like clockwork for the past 28 years. It may not be there this year but for the past 25 of the past 28 years there has been support. I can set my clock by the timing of the vans and the air support. Was it paid for?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Perhaps I can assist with the air support question. All bank escorts are risk assessed as are cash movement escorts. The deployment of personnel, the escort and the type of escort is based on risk assessment. Unless there is a specific reason, air cover is not normally provided.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not there at the moment.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

No.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Ms O'Sullivan talked about banks. Does the Garda charge An Post and the credit unions? Post offices have people delivering cash every other day for children's allowance and pensions. Does An Post pay, or is that free-----

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It was agreed at the time that, because An Post was a State organisation and was moving State money to pay, say, social payments, we would not charge for moneys being delivered to An Post.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What about credit unions?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

I am not aware of any shipments to credit unions.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They may get it locally from the banks or something.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

They may do, yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Receipts from firearms have gone down again. That leads me on to the question of how many licensed firearms there are. How many unlicensed firearms does Ms O'Sullivan believe there are? There is a lot of gun crime and I presume licensed firearms are not involved in all of these cases. From the number of firearms the Garda picks up as a result of crimes, what percentage have been licensed versus unlicensed?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We would not have the exact figures here but we can certainly get them for the Deputy. I suppose the general use of firearms would not normally be licensed firearms. I suppose something of which we are very conscious in terms of people who have licensed firearms is ensuring that they are safely stored and secured to mitigate against any risk of their being stolen and used in crime. We can certainly get the Deputy the exact details of the numbers. I do not have them readily available today.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Garda receives a small amount of income each year from a percentage charged to insurance companies for the collection of insurance premiums. I think I asked about this previously. Is that for uninsured drivers? How many uninsured cars does Ms O'Sullivan believe there are? From the Garda's random checks, what is the percentage of uninsured cars? Is the Garda a collection agent for some insurance companies? Does it get a fee? Will Ms O'Sullivan explain what that figure is?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Maybe I can get Mr. Culhane to explain that.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

I will cover two questions. In regard to the firearms, there are approximately 220,000 licensed firearms. Following the change in legislation-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Where are all those firearms? I know farmers need them and people in gun clubs. That is a lot.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

I suppose it is farmers and gun clubs-----

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It would be various individuals. As the Deputy said, it would certainly be farmers and people with an interest in rifle sport. A variety of people would require licences. There is a very rigorous process through which people go.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Could an individual have four or five licences for different guns?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How many people have firearms licences?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We would probably have to do some more analysis of that and it may not be readily available to us, but certainly, if the Deputy is interested, we can do it.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Back to the insurance-----

Mr. Michael Culhane:

If I could just clear up the issue of firearms fees and the variation from year to year, the legislation changed and there is now a three-year licence. There is a peak year in which a large number of licences are renewed and then there is a tail-off over the following two years. That would explain a substantial movement in terms of receipts. In terms of the insurance moneys, we do not actually do what the Deputy mentioned. That is a charge that we recoup from the insurance company for administering payroll reductions on its behalf.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Culhane explain that again?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

For example, if one wants to subscribe to an insurance company for, say, critical illness, one can make a deduction through one's payroll for convenience. Obviously, the financial shared services in Killarney manages that process, in terms of deducting the money from one's payroll and paying the money over to the insurance company. For that, we receive a small fee.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is an internal staff issue. It is not a matter of collecting money from uninsured drivers.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

No. It has nothing to do with that.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How many uninsured cars does Ms O'Sullivan believe there are? She must have some estimate.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We do not have it readily available today but we can get that for the Deputy.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We mentioned communications costs a while ago, but I see the Garda mast income has gone up by €1 million in the year, from €0.5 million to €1.5 million. What system is in place? What company is it paid to? Is that not an OPW issue? Does it not own the stations?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The OPW has put a centralised contract in place. If I remember correctly, it is with a company called Vilicom. Based on the number of masts we have, we get a proportion of that income, which is received centrally by the OPW. From recollection, I think we get approximately 33% of the total moneys collected.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, because a number of the masts are located on Garda stations.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Correct.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Which company is it for? Is it for Vodafone or-----

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It is a central contract put in place.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Garda is not directly involved.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The company, Vilicom, manages all of the masts and it collects the revenues from each of the mobile telephone operators.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Was there some arrangement in place where the Garda got free mobile telephone calls for official Garda use?

There used to be some arrangement whereby, in return for the companies' use of the masts, the Garda did not get bills for official mobile telephone calls. Is that arrangement in place?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Initially, when masts were put on the Garda stations, there was an arrangement with O2 under which we had approximately 1,000 mobile telephones for which, effectively, the operator covered the service charges. That has obviously ceased. We do not have any free mobile telephones from any operator, so we are paying directly for all of our mobile telephones. There is a centralised contract put in place by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and as part of that framework agreement we use various operators for our mobile communications.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Given that a company was covering the cost of the official mobile telephone calls and now it is not obliged to do so, was there an increase in the fee payable to the Garda because the company was saving in having to pay for the mobile telephone calls?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Will the Deputy explain the question again?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There was an arrangement in place under which the Garda received income from a mobile telephone operator for having the masts on the Garda stations. Part of that arrangement was that the mobile telephone company covered the cost of mobile telephone calls and did not bill the Garda for them. Mr. Culhane has now told me that the second part of that equation does not arise anymore. Was there a corresponding adjustment in the contractual arrangement to compensate for the fact the company does not provide free mobile telephone calls any more?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

If I recollect correctly, I think that arrangement ceased many years ago. The cost of mobiles was deducted from the rental payable by O2. The net sum, whatever was remaining, was paid to the Office of Public Works as the contract was with the Office of Public Works.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Approximately how many gardaí have official mobile telephones?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Currently, I think there are approximately 2,000.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Gardaí use the one they have-----

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The TETRA radio.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Was there some issue with regard to having excess quantities of those because of the reduction in Garda numbers? When the Garda Síochána appeared before the committee previously, was there not talk of trying to sell off excess quantities of those radios?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

As far as I am aware, the contract is with TETRA Ireland. It is for 15,700 licences. That is not just for hand-held devices; it is also for radios in cars, on motorbikes and so on. To reduce our expenditure on the Tetra radio system, in order to fit it into the budgetary provision, we wished to reduce the number of licences to live within the amount of moneys we had available in the Vote.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Culhane will understand my asking the following question. There is a receipt of payment in the accounts for non-public-duty services rendered by gardaí of €4.125 million in 2012. The breakdown of that figure is as follows: €1.954 million for covering sporting fixtures, €738,284 for concerts and festivals, and €1.4 million for other events. Will Mr. Culhane explain how the billing system works for concerts and festivals? It refers to non-public duties because they are private events. It could be the Electric Picnic in my area or something in Croke Park. Will Mr. Culhane explain the billing system?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

In accordance with section 30 of the Garda Síochána Act, if a company or an individual requests police services, if the Commissioner is satisfied that the company can pay for the cost of the services, those services will be provided.

There is a HQ directive which sets out a rate per hour per member, depending on the rank, when we have a clearly defined event space. Where events are happening in an open area, which is subject to a licence from the local authority, it directs that the event organiser should contribute or pay for the costs of the policing operation. The policing operation in that instance is not just merely policing the event space itself but there is also a very substantial traffic management plan. In that instance we seek to recover the cost of the traffic management plan as well as the policing cost associated with the particular event space itself.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Was that particular condition, that the applicant would pay for the policing of the open area as well as the area immediately in the vicinity of the stadium, included in the recent licence issued for the Garth Brooks concert?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The Deputy would have to ask the Acting Garda Commissioner.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes, that is correct, it was included.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does the charge adequately cover the rate per hour? What is the rate for a regular garda, as I am sure the salary and overheads must be taken into account?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

I am speaking from recollection but as per the HQ directive it is approximately €70 per hour.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is good from the point of view of the force. Could Mr. Culhane list the types of events for which the Garda Síochána would be paid for policing the event? Does it include sporting fixtures, such as the all-Ireland and Munster finals of the GAA, the Tour de France and other sporting fixtures?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Absolutely. Sporting fixtures and major events that come to Ireland, such as the Volvo Ocean Race, as well as any concerts, a matter which is topical at present or any other major event that is organised.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is there an additional charge to cover anti-social behaviour that may result from the extra events being on? Perhaps some concerts would require higher policing levels depending on the type of music being played, for example, the tragic events that arose when a Swedish group played in the Phoenix Park? Does the Garda Síochána conduct a risk assessment? Does it have a different level of policing for that type of concert versus the more sedate ones, that we all hope will go ahead shortly?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

In terms of determining the policing requirement for an event, there would be very early engagement with the event organisers. There would be very early engagement in looking at a number of risk factors: the area in which the event will be held; the type of clientele that the event would attract; and if the concert or event had been held previously, we would look at the experience of the police force in the area in which the event had been held. A number of factors would be built into the assessment and an agreed policing plan would be put in place with the event organisers.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Garda Síochána decide on the policing plan and the promoter accept the recommendation of the Garda without negotiation?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Absolutely. The number of police required to police the event would be determined by An Garda Síochána in consultation with the event organises but the Garda would determine the policing plan.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am from Laois and a couple of months after the Electric Picnic, the local newspapers are full of stories about drugs. In addition to the uniformed policing, does the Garda Síochána always have plain clothes staff searching for drugs? Does the Garda charge for plain clothes gardaí or is that a private matter the Garda does without alerting the event organisers?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It would depend on the event, but the overall policing plan would include both covert and overt types of policing.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Would the organiser have to pay for the covert policing as well?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It would depend on the event plan and the numbers that would be determined for the event. Some of them could factor in the undercover gardaí as well as the uniformed gardaí.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Acting Garda Commissioner happy overall with the way events are policed?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In the instances, where there has been a tragedy, and I mentioned what happened in the Phoenix Park, what kind of reassessment does the Garda conduct after such an event? People do not suggest it is the fault of the Garda when things go wrong, but what steps are taken to learn from the event and improve on the procedures?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

After every event and every operation, not just after major events, we conduct a debrief and a review. We look at what went well and what went wrong. After the incident in the Phoenix Park, to which the Deputy referred, there was a very comprehensive debrief and all the lessons learned from that event were adopted not alone by ourselves but by the promoters and event organisers.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I extend my sympathy to the family of that person and to all those involved in that incident.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Absolutely.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On the same point, is there a list of events and what has been charged for each event available?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes, I believe there is and Mr. Culhane will help us with that.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

The procedure is that either the local chief superintendent or the district officer would look for sanction to undertake a non-public duty event. Subject to the requirements for the non-public duty event, a fee would be agreed with the event organiser. There is a list of events and the fee chargeable against each one.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that list published? Could the committee have a copy of that list?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes. There is a summary of the receipts under each category or activity associated with non-public duty events published in the appropriation accounts.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Culhane furnish the committee with the list of what was charged against each event? Would the likes of the Curragh and Punchestown be similar?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes, I cannot recollect all of the individual events but certainly -----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there exempted events? Does every event that requires that type of policing incur a charge?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

We recognise charitable events. If the objective of the event is to raise money for a charity, we do not charge for that event.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

There is a charge for commercial events.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms O'Sullivan and the committee would appreciate if we could have a copy of the events and the charges applied in each case.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Acting Garda Commissioner, Ms O'Sullivan, and her colleagues to the meeting.

I wish to raise the Garth Brooks concerts and the issue in terms of Croke Park. Was the Garda Síochána consulted by either the promoter or Dublin City Council?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We were consulted at a very early stage. As I have explained to the Deputy's colleague, we would have been consulted at a very early stage. If Deputy O'Donnell would like, I can ask the assistant commissioner who was involved in it, to speak directly about it.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I would appreciate that, in light of the fact that it is a significant issue in Irish public life at present.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy asking about the three concerts or the five concerts?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am doing my public function, just like the Chairman.

Mr. John Twomey:

We are involved in the planning and the preparation of the event management plan. We are not involved in the decision of the issuing of the licence, but we are a notice party in the context of the event safety and the management plan. When the application is finally submitted to the licensing authority it is then forwarded to An Garda Síochána, to the local chief superintendent for the force to be satisfied that the plan will enable the event to go on safely for people.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When the application went in from the promoter to Dublin City Council, was it passed to An Garda Síochána for consultation on the issuing of a licence for five days of concerts?

Mr. John Twomey:

The management plan, that is how the event would be run on each day, was submitted to the Garda Síochána.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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From Dublin City Council?

Mr. John Twomey:

From Dublin City Council.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As part of the licensing application that went in?

Mr. John Twomey:

The work probably started maybe ten months ago - once an event becomes known publicly or planned - and we would have held a series of meetings with the -----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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On this specific concert?

Mr. John Twomey:

On all specific concerts.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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At that stage, was it the understanding of the Garda Síochána that it would be a three-day or a five-day concert series?

Mr. John Twomey:

I do not have that detail with me but I can say -----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is a major issue, Chairman.

Mr. John Twomey:

---- we did work with the organisers

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I do not wish to dwell on it too long. It is just to get a flavour of it.

Mr. John Twomey:

When the event is known, a management plan is prepared. The preparation of that plan is done in conjunction with the local gardaí and, indeed, other agencies that are involved in the running of these events - the local authorities, various other interest groups, the health service, etc. Anyone who has a role in ensuring that this is run safely is involved. It is in accordance with the code of practice. There is a code of practice in place for how these events are run and there are certain obligations and commitments on the event organisers, and we are involved in that planning. Following that consultation process and that planning process, which might take somewhere from six to ten months, an application is then made and the result of all of the work that is done in the previous ten months is submitted to the local authority. It then comes to us formally for us to say we have been involved in a process and we are satisfied with the plan as it is proposed.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, there is a number of persons involved. The views of the residents around Croke Park are significant and their concerns must be taken on board. When it came to the licensing process over the past number of months, was the Garda satisfied with what was being proposed? Was there interaction with Dublin City Council regarding that there may be difficulty over a concert being held over five rather than three days? Bringing it down to the practicalities, in simple terms someone looking in would say that this is a huge event, both for Dublin and Ireland. There would be bus operators bringing fans from the length and breadth of the country to the concerts. There are people living around Croke Park as well and it would be a considerable imposition on their daily lives. Was what was being proposed sustainable, both in terms of the logistics of managing such an event over a five day period and the impact it would have on the immediate area, in particular, on the residents? What were the Garda's observations on that at the time?

Mr. John Twomey:

There is a difference. We are not involved in the decision relating to the licence.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.

Mr. John Twomey:

We are involved in the event management plan, which speaks to whether the event can be run safely, and we were satisfied that the events could be run safety. Deputy O'Donnell is right in what he says. It does create a huge imposition on the residents of the immediate area and it is a difficult situation. From the point of view of the running of the event and the operation of the event, we were satisfied that the event management plan that was in place-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Which was a five-day plan at that time.

Mr. John Twomey:

It was a five-day plan. We were satisfied with the plan, that the events could be run.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Has the Garda had any further engagement with Dublin City Council on the issue? Currently, are there any consultations under way?

Mr. John Twomey:

We have no involvement in the issuing or the awarding of the licence. It is only in the event management plan.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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From a safety viewpoint, was the Garda satisfied?

Mr. John Twomey:

Yes. That end of the process is finalised.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We wish those involved well, that a resolution can be found to the satisfaction of both those who are attending the concerts and those living in the immediate area.

I will move on to straightforward issues. An issue that arises often - I represent a constituency that has both urban and rural areas which is Limerick city and east Limerick - is that the Garda cars are clapped out and old. I hear that from rank and file gardaí when a situation arises where a car reaches a certain milestone, which, I think, is 300,000 km, and it is taken off the road. In some cases, such cars are not replaced and instead of a car covering one area, it is now covers two. Would Ms O'Sullivan indicate the number of cars the Garda has, the number she would regard as the optimum for the Garda needs, the cost per car, the new cars purchased and the age of the fleet? Would she give an overall perspective of the resources An Garda Síochána would require to put a Garda fleet in place that is fit for purpose? It is an enormous issue, particularly in rural areas and sprawling urban areas both of which I would have throughout my constituency. This is a practical issue. I ask that Ms O'Sullivan give the position, warts and all, and state exactly what she would like.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

I suppose it would depend on who one would ask what they would like. This year, €4 million has been set aside for the fleet and to date 142 cars have been purchased.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Would Ms O'Sullivan repeat that?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Some €4 million is the budget for this year. There are two elements to it. Obviously, we are trying to replace some of the fleet that is now reaching that 300,000 km that Deputy O'Donnell just spoke about, but also prioritising and looking at the composition of the fleet that is required. A little like my answer to the Deputy previously, these are matters that we keep under constant review to ensure that the fleet is fit for purpose and that the composition of the fleet meets policing requirements, quite rightly, as Deputy O'Donnell states, both in the urban and the rural environments which are quite different.

What I could do, if Deputy O'Donnell wishes to go through the exact composition of the fleet and the-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If it is not too long.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

I can get Mr. Culhane to go through that and we can give an overview of the composition of it currently.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is really it. It is bottom-line stuff, really.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

As at the end of June, the fleet was 2,466 vehicles. That was composed, in terms of categories, as follows: cars, 1,730; vans, 393; motorcycles, 153; four-by-fours, 103; and other, 87, which includes trucks. At the end of December 2013 and 2012, purely for comparative purposes, the fleet was 2,407 and 2,414, respectively. One can see that, over that two and a half year period, the fleet is remaining at approximately 2,400 vehicles. In terms of the age of the fleet, currently, 75% of the fleet is over two years old. Of that, 66% is over four years old.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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More particularly, what is the average mileage on the fleet? Am I correct that once they get to 300,000 km, they are no longer usable?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The mileage is just as important. Is it kilometres or miles?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It is kilometres.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The kilometres are just as important as the age. Does Mr. Culhane have an average?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Age or engine kilometres?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The average kilometres up on the fleet. I want to get an indication on having to replenish the fleet. Does Mr. Culhane have any indication of that?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

I do not have the average kilometres across the fleet. Ideally, we would like to replace approximately 20% of the fleet per annum. One is looking at in the order of 400 vehicles.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Roughly, what is the cost per vehicle?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

A fitted out standard patrol car is in the order of €25,000.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Would one be looking at roughly €10 million per annum?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes, €10 million.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Culhane feel that the fleet replacement is at approximately 40%? It is effectively 60% under budget on an annual basis. Would that be reasonable?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

For the current year. However, in terms of 2013, we had a budget of €10.1 million and we had the opportunity there to make a significant investment in the fleet. That would have addressed a large number of issues. We were fortunate enough then.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many cars were retired from the fleet this year?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

In the first six months, 190 vehicles were retired.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many were purchased in the year?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

If I could step back a little, at the end of 2013 we bought 305 vehicles. It takes a while to commission those in the fleet in terms of fit out and those 305 vehicles are coming on stream. We have another 100 on order which are due for delivery at the end of this month and into early August. We also purchased 20 motorcycles as well. We are talking about 420 or 430 vehicles in total.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Did Mr. Culhane stated 190 vehicles were retired in the year?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

In the first six months.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That amounts to 230 net new vehicles. Am I correct in saying that the Garda is really only keeping pace? Are there approximately 400 vehicles on average coming off the fleet per year?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Four hundred is on the high side. It is in excess of 300. It depends. It will vary a little bit from year to year, but it is in excess of 300.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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My final question on that is for both the acting Commissioner and Mr. Culhane.

What is the under-provision in terms of Garda vehicles? This is a significant issue on the ground because in areas where gardaí patrol in a vehicle once per night, people would feel much more secure if they patrolled twice per night. What is the point at which one could provide this level of comfort to members of the public?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We are very conscious of the impact that the unavailability of Garda cars has on local communities. As Mr. Culhane stated, in relation to the recent provision of the cars and the ones that will come on stream after the fit-out, we have prioritised these into many rural areas and looked at where the priority needs are in terms of the vehicles. This is very much the way we are working and the plan at the moment. In the longer term, as I stated, we are looking at the make-up and type of fleet that we need and I hope we will have the projection by mid-autumn.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many Garda vehicles are due to come on stream and when will they come on stream? Ms O'Sullivan referred to a figure of 420.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

In excess of 200 vehicles are to come on stream. Of the 305 vehicles that we purchased in December 2013, 114 have been allocated. That leaves-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Have they all been purchased?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes; they were purchased and paid for at the end of 2013.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Why are they so slow to come into operation?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

There is a commissioning time to get the vehicles on stream. The fit-out of vehicles is a relatively specialised industry so there is a limited capacity available to us. We are getting them out as quickly as possible.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are sufficient resources available to have gardaí quickly driving them when they come on stream?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I read with interest recently about the small areas policing programme, which is essentially about having gardaí on the beat. The scheme is operational in Dublin. However, a great deal of good work is being done by An Garda Síochána in Limerick. In large urban sprawling areas people like to see old-fashioned policing, with gardaí walking around an area, meeting people and nipping problems in the bud by having a quiet word here or there when somebody misbehaves. This is the most effective type of policing. What are the prospects of the small areas policing programme being rolled out nationally? This type of approach could have phenomenal benefits in Limerick. One can introduce all the technology in the world, but it is much better from the point of view of intelligence alone to have two gardaí on the street speaking to children, observing what is going on and getting to know people in an area. Will the programme be rolled out? I ask Ms O'Sullivan to outline her thoughts on the matter.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It is a very welcome initiative. As the Deputy correctly stated, in all areas, particularly urban areas, all the cars and technology in the world will not beat human interaction. One needs this level of engagement at a human level, where gardaí can meet and speak to people. It benefits young and old people and everybody in between. Many older people in rural communities and some in urban communities are lonely and welcome engagement with local gardaí on the beat. Likewise, as the Deputy outlined, it helps when one has young people who can be diverted from crime at a very early age and a sense among people in a community that they know where problems are as they arise. In terms of the principles and level of engagement the small area policing project brings, we will certainly review that and look at rolling it out into both urban and rural communities. It is not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the timeframe for the roll-out of the scheme?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We will certainly have the programme reviewed towards the end of this year. Going into next year, we are looking at that level of community engagement, as we discussed earlier, in terms of making sure that gardaí on the beat are focused on that engagement. In some rural areas cars are necessary to have that reach-out.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When will the annual plan for 2015 be produced?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

In October.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Could this initiative find its way into the plan?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

That is what we hope, yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms O'Sullivan for the openness she has shown on the issue of the Garth Brooks concerts. I also appreciate the human problem these concerts create for those who live in the area, and I understand their concerns. This is a legislative problem. We need to find a mechanism that allows a fresh application to be made. In addition, we need stand-alone legislation for concerts, including a right of appeal for promoters and residents. The system must be seen to work for the betterment of everyone. I hope the engagement that is taking place will yield a benefit and allow the concerts to proceed with the blessing of residents of the area.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Deputy like to wish the Taoiseach success in his negotiations on the issue?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That goes without saying.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It may impress him when he is making decisions later.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

This is one of the areas we are very conscious of. We mentioned it earlier when talking about the non-delivery of fixed charge notices. The criminal justice working group has been established to look at the recommendations from the fixed charge processing system inspectorate report, and that is a matter that has been prioritised by the working group in terms of the registered delivery of fixed charge notices. The change would be the introduction of a presumption of delivery via enactment of Part 3 of the 2010 Act. This would help address the issue and enable a speedier service.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes, I think so. Mr. O'Sullivan from the Department of Justice and Equality co-chairs the working group, so he could update the Deputy on the position in that regard.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

The working group is looking at a provision in the 2010 Road Traffic Act which changes the presumption with regard to delivery. This would mean that if there was a certificate of delivery, the presumption in court would be that a person received it. He or she would then have to be able to provide active, positive evidence that he or she did not get it. The context is that at the moment the Garda must essentially prove that a person received the notice, which is impossible.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

Yes; essentially, we are changing the burden of proof. The road tax office tells us that very few people contact it to say they did not receive a road tax disc in the post. It uses the same address that is used for serving fixed charge notices. The hope is that the burden will shift. The working group is looking at other reforms aimed at trying to address and improve this matter. The registered post issue can be considered in that context, but it is one of a number of issues that are being looked at.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan:

The main timeline is linked to the introduction of what is known as the third payment option, an issue that will also be helped here. We hope we will be able to agree a plan to roll out the information technology required to implement the third payment option. While we might reach agreement on that this year - I hope it will be soon - there is a long lead time to deliver this IT plan. It would take at least a year to do that.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Absolutely. There are a lot of complexities involved in the whole area of serious or fatal injuries in road collisions. If it would be helpful, I will invite Superintendent Con O'Donohue, who deals with the RSA on a regular basis in respect of this matter, to explain some of the issues I am raising.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

From 1 January 2014 we improved the data that is provided to the Road Safety Authority. A number of changes to the data that it had requested were rolled out as part of a project on 1 January 2014. This also means the RSA is getting the data in a more timely fashion than previously. Allied to that, on a regular basis, about every three or four years, the Road Safety Authority and its predecessors have come to look at a sample of Garda files. They get down and dirty in terms of the actual investigation files to see what they can elicit from those files in terms of the causation factors. Recently I met the RSA's research manager. There is a proposal to start another research project within the next couple of months. Our files are open at all times to the Road Safety Authority to come in and analyse them. It will be going to tender, as the RSA does not have the resources to carry out this significant job, which is exactly what the Deputy is saying - getting down and dirty into the files to see exactly what were the causation factors for particular accidents, whether it was a combination of sleep deprivation and alcohol or drugs, speed, or the condition of vehicles. Currently, the RSA gets data from our PULSE system; essentially, the PULSE system records that a collision occurred and gives the headline issues. It always has that.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

Off-hand, I cannot tell the Deputy about the alcohol-----

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

It is recorded. In regard to seatbelts, I am aware that in 20% of the fatalities people were not wearing seatbelts.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

I understand.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

We certainly-----

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

In terms of blood alcohol count, as I said at the outset, sometimes it can be difficult, particularly if people have been fatally injured in road collisions or require medical intervention very early on. That is a priority. Research is done by the Medical Research Bureau, also which has responsibility for analysing the blood alcohol content of samples. As Mr. O'Donohue has said, we see that speed is cause of many fatal road collisions and serious injury collisions; also, non-wearing of seat belts and the use of mobile phones. Coming into the autumn period, there is a lack of awareness by pedestrians in terms of dark clothing and stepping off footpaths. Sometimes cyclists wear earphones and iPods. There are many causation effects other than blood alcohol content, but that is being monitored.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

There are a variety of contributing factors to most collisions, as alluded to by the acting Garda Commissioner. Some of them are very unusual. The Deputy mentioned that legislation was passed. The reduced blood alcohol limits, mandatory alcohol testing, the safety camera project and all the various initiatives taken in recent years have reduced the very high level of road deaths that obtained ten years ago.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

We are now at a stage at which the number of fatalities will bottom out. The best countries in the world, unfortunately, still have road fatalities. At some point the number will bottom out.

Mr. Con O'Donohue:

There will always be a blip. Sometimes they cannot be explained in terms of an overall trend. We were surprised that in 20% of the fatalities last year people were not wearing seatbelts. That is one that jumped off the page, with everyone asking, in this day and age, why 20% of people were not wearing seatbelts. Speed is still a factor. With the change in the economy, as things start to improve we are getting more vehicles on the road. I spoke to Road Safety Authority about that issue and asked if it is an issue we need to research. Would fuel sales indicate that we are getting more vehicles on the road and more mileage travelled? As a consequence, there is likely to be an increase in the number of deaths and serious injuries. The Road Safety Authority, which has a research function, has not come back to us on that yet, but it will. Certainly, we are working with the Road Safety Authority and the National Roads Authority on the engineering issues. All the time we are sharing and trying to get information. As to 2013, whether it was a blip or whether the number of fatalities is beginning to level out, we still have to keep striving the reduce the number. We are aware of the tragedy for families with one fatality, so we will never be satisfied. At the same time, we all know we will never reach zero, although that should be the ultimate aim.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Unfortunately, no more than for road deaths, any death is a death too many, no matter how it is caused. The increase in the homicides is not attributable to organised crime.

It is certainly attributable to a greater propensity to violence and "familial" interactions - I do not like using the term "domestic" - as opposed to other types of interactions such as organised crime. There is something to be done here in regard to responsible behaviour and awareness.

While the homicide rate is up this year, there is a detection rate of 67%, which I see as positive. I do not like to talk of homicide in these terms, because even one death is a death too many. We want to prevent deaths rather than detect them.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Certainly there is more of a rush to violence not just in terms of deaths, but in terms of serious injury and people acting without thinking.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I want to turn now to procurement. How is general procurement, be it vehicles or servicing of vehicles, managed? When the Garda is purchasing a service or goods, does it have a panel of businesses it uses? Also, does it vet the company or individual chosen in terms of reliability and suitability for dealing with the Garda?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes. We have a rigorous procurement process in place. This process is in line with the Government's central procurement guidelines. I can ask Mr. Culhane to talk the committee through the process step by step, if that would be helpful.

Mr. Michael Culhane:

In the context of the fleet, the purchase of vehicles is handled through the Office of Government Procurement. It has a framework contract in place and we purchase vehicles from that contract. In regard to the maintenance of the fleet, we got sanction to tender for the maintenance of the fleet and now, having gone through a public procurement tender, we have a contract in place for maintenance. Similarly, we have contracts in place for tyres, towing of Garda vehicles and for petrol and other fuel.

On vetting, because we use regular commercial enterprises, we do not necessarily vet every supplier in the context of the goods or services they provide. That would not be practical.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Garda ever refused to deal with someone who was successful in the procurement process because of what might be termed "operational reasons"? If a business wins a contract, it has obviously gone through the process successfully and been vetted. Has there been any instance where such a business has not been used as a supplier?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

There may be an occasion where when a business goes through the procurement process, something becomes apparent that makes it inappropriate for it to be used, for operational or security reasons.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would the inappropriateness relate to the individual or the company?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It could be either. It could be something specific to an individual or to a company or its dealings with other companies.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, even after securing the contract, something may become apparent and then the Garda will not go ahead and use that individual or company. Is that person or company informed of the reasons for not being used?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

They might not be informed of the specific reasons, but they would be informed they were not going to be used?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How would that information be conveyed to them? Would it be by word of mouth or would the Garda write to them?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It would depend on the specific circumstances.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The number of members of the force is now down to less than 13,000 and the acting Commissioner has said the Garda can fulfil its full obligations with that number. This might come as a surprise to some people around the country, because they constantly hear of the non-availability of gardaí for some reason or another in regard to reporting incidents and getting a response. For example, the Garda has had an input in creating by-laws, but often when it comes to policing and implementation of them, the explanation is often given that the Garda does not have the manpower to deal with them. Is this something she has come across or is she familiar with that view?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Not specifically in regard to the by-laws. However, up to the redeployment of personnel using the new roster system, we were conscious that gardaí needed to be clustered together in order to provide greater visibility and greater outreach to communities. As I explained earlier, it is part of our focus to be able to engage with communities at a different level and to ensure members will be able to respond to incidents as they arise. This outreach is an important part of our policing strategy.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Committee members spoke about road safety and deaths on the roads, but recently we have seen another issue in regard to roads - the racing of sulkies and accidents and unsocial behaviour caused by this activity. What is the Garda response to that? Are there specific laws or local by-laws applying to that and can the Garda engage with those involved and stop that activity? In some areas, it seems that is not the case and those involved seem to be able to carry out this activity without any concern for the law. This is of huge concern to local communities. Without casting any reflection on the Garda, the response currently is such that this racing continues and dead horses have been found on the public road after this activity. Why is this happening? If the force is engaging with the community and has the ability to deal with this, why does an activity such as this continue?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

I am not aware of the specific area the Chairman has mentioned. However, I know there have been a number of occasions when sulky races have been "intercepted" by gardaí. There are various laws we can use to deal with the racers and the racing. If the Chairman has a particular area in mind, we can look into it for him. There is various legislation available, in terms of roads regulation enforcement and of public order and safety, we can use if necessary.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, even without by-laws, there is legislation that can be used to deal with these issues.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes, there is a variety of legislation available.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not raising this because of a particular area, but I have seen this activity on YouTube videos and have seen reports on it in the papers from different parts of the country. Some of the reports are shocking in their descriptions of how animals are treated. The same individuals seem to be back on the road the following day and this activity seems to go unchecked. If I was involved, I would probably end up being arrested, but some people seem to be able to engage in this activity without ending up arrested. That is the concern I and local communities would have when we see these videos, which are available publicly, and see these accounts reported nationally in the media. These activities are a source of concern for pedestrians and people who use our public roads.

We talk about safety on the roads but it is not just a question of people who drink and drive and have accidents, but the unlawful behaviour of people on the roads that causes serious problems for other road users. If the law is there and the 13,000-strong force is capable of dealing with it there should be a focus on this. Some stations do not even have scanners to scan the evidence to pick up the chip. I would have thought every station should have that equipment. I looked them up on the web and they cost only €200 or €300.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It is something we can consider. In respect of animal welfare gardaí work closely with local animal rescue authorities, particularly in dealing with horses. There is close cooperation and liaison between the gardaí and local animal protection services.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If one telephones and makes a complaint to some stations they will say it is not an issue for them but for the local authority or for the services for the prevention of cruelty to animals. It goes round and round. Recently, I read that they were asked to scan the horses and they did not have a scanner. That should be examined and fines in accordance with the legislation could be applied, thereby bringing in further revenue to the State. Local authorities will complain that bringing cases costs them a great deal but the fines are never paid. There is a breakdown somewhere in the system of applying the law, whether it is a question of legislation or of the gardaí pursuing or not being able to pursue the case because they lack the power. If that is so and there is a weakness in the legislation I encourage the Acting Commissioner to come forward and point it out so that some of us in this House might pursue it as a matter of policy because of our concerns. I would like the Acting Commissioner also to look into the scanner issue.

How much did the Garda spend on the missing persons unit? Is there one? If so, how many gardaí are involved in it? What is the progress to date? There is a significant number of people still missing, such as JoJo Dollard.

I have yet to see an ongoing public profile of that or other cases to try to jerk someone’s memory or conscience to come forward with information. Although it is said that there is regular contact with families in these circumstances I know that is not the case. The HSE plays no role or part in counselling these families. How much does the Garda spend on the missing persons unit? Why does it not take a case, such as the JoJo Dollard case, and reconstruct it publicly and encourage people to come forward on an ongoing basis, as the National Center for Missing and Exploited children in Washington DC would do?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes, we do have a missing persons bureau. I do not have the cost of running it readily available but it is important to put it in context to say that when a person is reported missing the local gardaí become involved and the missing persons bureau collates the statistics for the number of missing persons and manages any interaction needed to coordinate that work. When a person is reported missing the investigation remains live until the case is closed. It is not closed until it is solved.

We have set up a network of family liaison officers whose job is to liaise with the families of the people who are missing and those who are injured by crime. There is very active investigation of missing persons. We have a network of missing persons and a national missing persons day when families of lost ones can come together.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any ongoing engagement with the centre in Washington or through the foundation – is it the Jerry McCabe Foundation?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

There is a foundation in the United States.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Garda Síochána provide funding for members of its force to go to America for appropriate training on this?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Members of An Garda Siochána go to various places in America for training but not specifically in respect of missing persons. We do liaise a great deal with the various missing persons bureaux all over Europe and America.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Garda consider profiling one of these cases in such a public way as would draw attention not only to the case but to the issue of missing persons, as they do in America with notices on milk cartons and flyers and so on?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We have explored several options. We have profiled several cases publicly, to raise awareness but also periodically to review them and ask people who may have information or who can assist to come forward.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Garda have a budget to do something like that each year? Or does that have to be set aside in the year to meet the publicity costs?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We could do it within our operational budget.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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According to these accounts, the Garda – or is it the Department? – allocates €124,000 a year to the medical aid society. What is that for?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It is a subvention for the Garda medical aid society. Mr. Culhane will explain how it breaks down in detail.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it €124,000?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes. It is an annual grant to the medical aid society, which covers the medical expenses of members who contribute to that fund and who are injured on duty. Subject to the outcome of a court case, the member reimburses the association for the medical fees. It may take several years for the case to be brought to a conclusion. The grant of €124,000 or €125,000 per annum helps defray the costs of the society, subject to receipt of audited accounts and a tax clearance certificate.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who would examine the tax clearance certificate and the accounts for the year? Does that go to the internal audit committee?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It comes to me.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would that be subject to examination by the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It is certainly within his scope but I am not aware whether he has audited it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the secretary to that organisation appointed from the Garda Síochána to the job on full pay as a garda? How does it work?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

As far as I am aware, when a position is advertised a member of the Garda can be seconded to the society. I would have to check the salary base and who pays it once the person is employed by Garda medical aid. We could send the Chairman a note on this, if that would be helpful.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, please. In respect of the accounts, what would be the rate of pay for the secretary of that organisation?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Culhane indicate the rate of pay for the secretary of that organisation?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

I do not have any details on what the payment is or if there is a payment attached to the role.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Culhane not receive the accounts?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

Yes, but I do not have the details in front of me and cannot give the Chairman that information.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We can include it in our note to the committee, if that would be helpful?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It would. The delegates might also indicate in the note whether the individual who is secretary of this society and is presumably paid the appropriate rate of pay as a garda is also in receipt of a separate payment for his or her role as secretary. In addition, will Mr. Culhane check who pays the assistant secretary and whether there is a pension liability in respect of those two roles? There is a considerable amount of money involved here - some €70 million, as well the €40 million in the reserves. Do those sums show up in the accounts? I am also interested in how the process works. Is this organisation given €124,000 and does it then hand over its accounts to Mr. Culhane? Is there an obligation on Mr. Culhane's side to examine those accounts or is it just his way of ensuring the society carries on its business properly?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It is essentially a case of ensuring it carries out its business properly. We would check that there is a clean audit opinion on the accounts and, second, that the organisation is tax compliant. We do not get involved in the management of the society or how it goes about its business.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I take it then that Mr. Culhane would not, for example, question issues such as board members' expenses, salary levels and so on. Is that something he cannot or would not do?

Mr. Michael Culhane:

It is not something I can do because it is completely outside our remit.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am just wondering about the allocation of €124,000. It is not clear that this sum is required to make up a shortfall or because it is needed for running costs or whatever the case might be. Is the €124,000 approved on the basis that Mr. Culhane has examined the accounts of the society and concluded that all pay scales and payments of expenses are within reason and the organisation could not function without that allocation? Surely there is at least that level of examination? Otherwise, this organisation is simply getting €124,000 without making the case for it. I realise the work it does is good, but the documentation before us indicates that the allocation is €124,000 most years. Does Mr. Culhane examine what is going on behind that organisation in order to determine whether this allocation is actually needed and if the secretary and assistant secretary, whomever they might be, are being paid within reason? I am not saying there is anything wrong about the allocation - I am just questioning how the audit committee or Mr. Culhane, as the person who receives the accounts, views and examines them.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We can set out that information, including the context and rationale, in our note to the committee.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That will be fine. My next question relates to the local policing committees, which see members of local authorities, Oireachtas Members and gardaí coming together to oversee policing in communities. Are these committees a draw on Garda resources in terms of the number of members of the force, including senior officers, who have to attend meetings? Or are they functioning well in terms of bolstering community policing?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

They are working very well and are a valuable source of engagement for us. We view them in terms of our accountability going all the way from the Oireachtas down to the local community. The local policing committees and joint policing fora are a very important part of that. I spoke earlier about the various levels of engagement we have with communities. Local policing committees are valuable because they facilitate a joint problem-solving approach to policing. The system is working extremely well and we do not view it as a draw on resources at all. In fact, we very much welcome the engagement and partnership it accommodates and the support we get from the communities working with us.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms O'Sullivan outline the membership of the audit committee?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

The committee is chaired by Mr. Michael Howard and also comprises two independent representatives, Mr. Dunne, the chief administrative officer, who is here today, and a secretariat.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How often does the committee meet?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

It meets on average once a quarter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Finally, will Ms O'Sullivan clarify whether there is a new unit within the force, perhaps attached to the drugs unit, which uses dogs to inspect post offices and courier companies? Is that a dedicated unit within the Garda or is it a unit of the Customs and Excise service?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

We have a dog unit which is assigned various tasks and used in a variety of ways. Revenue and the Customs and Excise service also have dogs available to them.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The two units are separate?

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I assume then the new unit I am talking about has been established by the Customs and Excise service. I thank Ms O'Sullivan and her colleagues for assisting the committee today.

Ms Noirín O'Sullivan:

Thank you, Chairman.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it agreed to dispose of Vote 20 and chapter 8 of the 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Agreed.