Dr. Barry Colfer:

I will make three other very quick points as I am conscious of time. On the ratification of treaty change and whether people are clamouring for treaty reform, for what it is worth, it is very rare to ever have citizens clamouring for legislative change. It is not typical. Sometimes it is very specific around matters of public policy, but what we are talking about today is still very useful. Notwithstanding how difficult ratification will be, it brings all the issues to the surface. That is great as regards the health and robustness of our democracies. It is to be revelled in and celebrated that we are thinking about how things might change.

To go back to what Deputy Haughey said, however, the prospect of ratification by the 27 of the future 36 is enormously challenging. This brings me back to my penultimate point that I made previously, which is also to agree with the Deputy, on a multi-speed Europe. We already have coalitions of the willing in the EU, to borrow a phrase, around matters, as I mentioned, such as the single currency, Schengen, and the various protocols whereby Ireland and other countries opt in and out of things. That will be with us forever. We should probably make more judicious use of it.

I will make a small remark on Le Pen. I lived in Italy until recently. There was similar concern about Giorgia Meloni coming to power with her Fratelli d'Italia party. A phrase associated with Irish politics in the past was that you campaign in poetry but govern in prose. It is to be hoped, and it is often the case, that getting into government is a sobering experience. Notwithstanding the background of that party, and the Rassemblement National is very extreme, if I can say that, it has drifted to the centre as is so often the case. If I can share a personal opinion, while I would certainly not welcome a Le Pen presidency, I would not be terribly worried about, for example, France maintaining its membership of the EU. When the rubber hits the road, as we saw with Georgia Meloni, people tend to drift back to the centre.