Professor Gavin Barrett:

Deputy Ó Murchú raised a particular issue and I am struck by how linked all of these issues are. He raised the issue of conditionality and suggested perhaps that is the solution to the rule-of-law issue. Almost every other means had been used, including a system of reports, Article 7 and Commission prosecutions of states such as Hungary and Poland. Some of those means were not used to an adequate extent but they were used. People felt that the financial conditionality, such that countries only get money if they behave themselves on the rule-of-law issue, might work. The problem there is that Hungary is now using its veto on a different issue. That then raises the issue of whether we can do anything about the veto it is using. Those issues are all linked. That is the problem and it is why these issues are arising.

The Deputy also mentioned Next Generation Europe. It has been success as, if you like, a temporary kind of measure. I wonder if we could keep using that without treaty change. It is a big step to take in European integration. It is something that probably should be reflected in the treaties.

The Cathaoirleach raised the question of Franco-German axis and the danger, if you like, of undermining that solution. We must be careful that in searching for a solution to a present crisis, such as that in Ukraine, we do not undermine the solution to the previous crisis, which, of course, was an issue relating to France and Germany. The situation we have in Europe at the moment maximises French and German power. They are both more powerful countries as a result of being in the European Union. They are both better off in the European Union than not being in it. We do not want to undermine that situation at the end of the day. There is a danger that Ukraine, which is such a massive country, will rock the boat because it will suck in resources and political power, because it is so large,-----