Mr. Tony O'Brien:

The founder CEO and family-type NGO model is not unique to Console and, to be fair, many very effective NGOs have operated that way in the past. It is clearly no longer best practice. We have seen that emerging through the sector. My view on the matter - it is a fact, actually - is that the composition of the board is a matter for the company itself. There may need to be some examination of that issue, but what has happened in the charitable sector is a bit like what happened in the banking sector. I am sure this matter will be discussed in other circles. Whether there is a need for a fit and proper person test to be a director of a charity is a question that emerges from this issue.

With the Chairman's indulgence, I will add one final point. We have talked a lot about section 38s and section 39s. It is not a distinction that we have created. The sections are in the 2004 Health Act. They were created by legislation. They reflect the will of the Oireachtas at the time. They create a distinction between different types of organisations. That is why they are funded under different legislation. It is a matter of fact that the HSE is not responsible for the running of section 39 agencies, whereas it has a much higher level of responsibility in respect of section 38 agencies, which are regarded substantially as public sector bodies. The others are not.