Mr. Pat Dunne:

As a hill farmer, I would certainly agree with many of Deputy Ó Cuív's comments. It is obvious that he knows a good deal about hill farming.

I would make a couple of points in addition to what Mr. Byrne said. The National Parks and Wildlife Service in Wicklow, which was mentioned here on a few occasions, takes in sheep to graze on the Wicklow Mountains National Park. There are 34 or 35 farmers who pay a nominal fee per head each year to put sheep in. The National Parks and Wildlife Service's idea is that it is the best way of managing the commonage and keeping the vegetation right. Likewise, the Department of Defence owns approximately 9,000 acres of land in the Glen of Imaal, which is a shooting range. They take in sheep there per head by the year as well and they tell me that it is the same idea. They take them in there because that is how they keep the vegetation in condition, for health and safety, etc.

There was a question raised earlier about AEOS by Senator O'Neill. I did not pick up on it at the time and he has gone now. He stated that there was €12,000 paid in AEOS. As we all will be aware, the maximum payment in AEOS is €4,000. I was in REPS and I came out of it. I was drawing a payment of €12,336 per year in REPS and when that ran out, I went into AEOS where I am getting €4,000. That is a hell of a difference. One cannot make that up by selling extra stock. It is just not there.

Deputy Ó Cuív mentioned collops in Wicklow. There are some collops in Wicklow. Also, there are equal shares. Some of the mountains in Wicklow are owned outright by farmers. There is a range of ownership issues in Wicklow and there is much work to be done there.

What Deputy Ó Cuív stated about some farmers would not be able to farm the hills or do the work that is needed is quite true. He spoke of a farm at 2,000 ft. above sea level. The one that I farm runs up to the top of Log na Coille, up to 3,000 ft. above sea level. One cannot get a tractor up to it. It is as simple as that. A quad bike can go part but not all of the way. Deputy Ó Cuív's idea of the rural social scheme, RSS, workers is certainly a good one. If farmers are unable to do the work themselves and if there are funds available that would pay a young fellow or a couple of fellows to do the work that is needed to be done, that should be encouraged.

On the scheme, as Mr. Byrne stated, while we think that the whole commonage should be taken into consideration, it has to work somewhat like the basis on which REPS worked. It also must be optional. If there are farmers who do not want to be in it, one cannot force them into it.

Mr. Byrne referred to flat-rate payments across the board. If it works like that, farmers will do the minimum amount possible. One cannot stand over them and make them change. There should be an incentive for farmers to do the work. They should be paid according to a scoring system or otherwise. Such a system is operated in the Burren and it seems to be working very well.

My final point on this matter, which echoes what Deputy Ó Cuív said, is that the most-cost effective way of keeping the mountains in good shape is to keep the hill farmers farming on them. If people have to be brought in to do the work and if they are to be supervised and checked, considerable expenditure will be incurred very quickly.