Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Thar ceann an Tánaiste, gabhaim buíochas le gach Teachta a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Gabhaim buíochas as the constructive contributions, comments and inputs. The Tánaiste was very clear in his opening statement that this is the first of two substantial defence Bills. To address the point made by Deputy Howlin and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, the second Bill will provide for the reform of the triple lock as well as addressing the high-level military command structures of the Defence Forces to reflect the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces.

With regard to the Bill being discussed today, there is a requirement to have this legislation enacted before the summer recess. This timeframe reflects the fact that the terms of the High Court settlements with Defence Force representative associations in respect of their temporary associate membership of ICTU are due to expire at the end of June 2024. There is a critical need to ensure a statutory mechanism is in place at that stage to address the issue of associate membership. Furthermore, the establishment of the external oversight body on a statutory basis is a priority for the Government. The early enactment of the Bill will allow the Tánaiste to progress this matter.

There has been commentary that there was insufficient consultation with stakeholders on the draft legislative proposals. The Tánaiste feels that such commentary does not reflect the engagement that has taken place in recent months. Following approval by the Government of the general scheme of the Bill, the Tánaiste and his officials engaged with military representative organisations and the interim oversight body on the draft legislative proposals. The relevant stakeholders were also given an opportunity to provide written observations. The general scheme also underwent the pre-legislative scrutiny process. As part of this process, officials from the Department of Defence met the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence. The Department also provided supplementary written material to the committee to assist it in its work. I can confirm, as the Tánaiste said in his opening remarks, that he listened carefully to the views expressed by the stakeholders and others arising from the process. The Bill as published includes a number of refinements and modifications that have taken account of these views. However, in common with any legislation, it is not always possible accommodate every view put forward by stakeholders.

The Tánaiste confirmed in his opening remarks that the Bill does not seek to interfere with the ability of the Permanent Defence Force representative associations to represent their members in relation to their remuneration or terms and conditions. Considerable care was taken during the drafting process to ensure this position is reflected in the text of the Bill. The provisions of the Bill have had the benefit of extensive legal advice. Having carefully considered all relevant matters, the Tánaiste is satisfied that the Bill is necessary and proportionate.

I will now try to deal with a number of the specific points that have been raised. The officials will engage with the Tánaiste on other points. I have dealt with the questions about the timing of the triple lock proposals. There were a number of queries about the rationale for specifying commentary on matters of Government policy and prohibited activities for representative associations in section 23. The conditions attached to ICTU association are in line with strong military advice, reflecting the potential implications for the security of the State and given the apolitical nature of the Defence Forces.

There are already conditions in the regulations made under the Defence Acts which specify that no public statement or comment concerning a political matter should be made by the association. This position was reflected in the 2022 High Court settlements with the representative associations in connection with the temporary associate membership of ICTU. Nothing in the Bill would interfere with the existing rights of representative organisations or individual Defence Forces members. This is explicitly set out. The original language in the general scheme has been tightened to reflect stakeholder concerns regarding proportionality.

Comparisons were made during our debate today with An Garda Síochána. It is important, though, to recall the unique role of the Defence Forces and the need to maintain military command and discipline. On this basis, the Tánaiste is satisfied that restrictions as now drafted are necessary and proportionate. A number of queries have been made about the role of the Secretary General of An Roinn Cosanta as a member of the oversight body. The independent review group specifically recommended that the Secretary General of the Department should be a member of the body. This was accepted by Government. The role of the Secretary General is to represent the Minister's policy position on relevant matters for the benefit of the body. The assessments of the body in delivery should be informed by public service norms and an understanding of the personnel and financial resources available. As Accounting Officer for the Defence Vote, the Secretary General provides that vital link. It is also important to remember that the Secretary General is only one member, with the other members each providing their independent perspective of his assurance.

Questions were put as to why the membership of the oversight body does not include people from the Defence Forces or from the representative associations. The report was clear that the external oversight body should be external to and independent of the Defence Forces. In light of the independent review group report, and the need for the external oversight body to be external to and independent of the Defence Forces, no provision can be made for members of the Defence Forces or representative associations to become members of the body.

I have dealt with the issue around consultation. The Tánaiste has also made it clear that he will engage during Committee Stage. I am aware that a number of Deputies have indicated that they will be putting forward amendments at that Stage. Gabhaim buíochas le gach Teachta, go háirithe tráthnóna Déardaoin, as an díospóireacht seo.

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